wagner Posted December 10, 2019 Report Share Posted December 10, 2019 This summer we converted Rick's dragster from carb to EFI using a Holley Sniper system. It was a learning experience and a lot of fun. https://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories/efi-swapping-a-dragster-with-a-holley-sniper-stealth-4500-part-1/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Nice Posted December 10, 2019 Report Share Posted December 10, 2019 Nice. Good write up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS69 Posted December 11, 2019 Report Share Posted December 11, 2019 Good write up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagner Posted December 11, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2019 The guys from Holley really liked it, now I have to do the ignition article. Hopefully next year we can get out with the car more and get the tune dialed in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Maker Posted December 11, 2019 Report Share Posted December 11, 2019 (edited) So, this also has a built in MAP and ITA sensor? Seems like a pretty nice drop in setup. It's also a pretty nice design that you can do it in steps; step 1, keep current ignition system and it can work well, step 2 install ECU controlled ignition system into the loop for more control. I'm assuming the throttle is still purely cable driven. I guess they are assuming most people already have an O2 sensor for monitoring, despite being carbureted? Has there been anyone that has looked into the effect of a throttle body injection system like that VS port injection? Other than on the wallet and how long the 2 week install period is. Let us know when part 2 is up, would love to read it. It would be pretty cool if they built in or had some adds on's for position tracking; via g-sensor and/or GPS. They could also make provisions or a different version for DBW (drive by wire). With some combo of this and GPS, maybe with some wheel speed sensor add ons they could also add some traction/wheelie/etc control. It could make for a really interesting way to slowly step up the technical ladder. Edited December 11, 2019 by Trouble Maker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Cranium Posted December 11, 2019 Report Share Posted December 11, 2019 So, this also has a built in MAP and ITA sensor? Seems like a pretty nice drop in setup. It's also a pretty nice design that you can do it in steps; step 1, keep current ignition system and it can work well, step 2 install ECU controlled ignition system into the loop for more control. I'm assuming the throttle is still purely cable driven. I guess they are assuming most people already have an O2 sensor for monitoring, despite being carbureted? Has there been anyone that has looked into the effect of a throttle body injection system like that VS port injection? Other than on the wallet and how long the 2 week install period is. Let us know when part 2 is up, would love to read it. It would be pretty cool if they built in or had some adds on's for position tracking; via g-sensor and/or GPS. They could also make provisions or a different version for DBW (drive by wire). With some combo of this and GPS, maybe with some wheel speed sensor add ons they could also add some traction/wheelie/etc control. It could make for a really interesting way to slowly step up the technical ladder. The throttle is still cable driven. Same cable I was using on the DaVinci Dominator that was on the car when I got it. The TPS is built into the side of the throttle body unit. I would assume most don't have an O2 sensor, I had to have a bung welded into my header for the 02 sensor. I'm still running leaded gas, so we'll see what that does to the 02 long term. I just didn't see options for 112 octane unleaded race gas, and I really don't want to get into mixing octane boosters into unleaded. We are using the bare minimum of control for the Sniper. Other than the O2 wire, and coolant temp, it's just power, ground, switched ignition, and tach. One of the big harnesses has only 1 wire being used. We de-pinned all the other wires coming out of it to cut down on excess. In the event of a wreck, I want positive control of the fuel pump and ignition. I also chose to maintain control of the radiator fan. So far I am pleased as hell with the system. The throttle response is VERY crisp. Cold starting is not a problem now. Warming up is as easy as it could be. Idle to full throttle is a simple mash of the peddle. I know my old carburetor could have been cleaned up and tuned up a little, but I always had a delay and the engine struggled a little if I just matted the throttle. Since this has so much better manners in between idle and full throttle I'm planning on adding a "Starting line enhancer" to the car that will let me sit on the line with the peddle floored and the engine at idle until a second before the green light, when it will take up the slack and bring the engine up to full power just before the launch. Right now, once I stage, I mat the throttle and sit there with the engine screaming waiting for the green light. It's only a few seconds but I would prefer to do that as little as possible. Some of the nicer ones can also double as a throttle stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagner Posted December 11, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2019 Yes, it has built-in MAP and ITA sensors, it's cable driven, and it has O2 sensor. So, this also has a built in MAP and ITA sensor? Seems like a pretty nice drop in setup. It's also a pretty nice design that you can do it in steps; step 1, keep current ignition system and it can work well, step 2 install ECU controlled ignition system into the loop for more control. I'm assuming the throttle is still purely cable driven. I guess they are assuming most people already have an O2 sensor for monitoring, despite being carbureted? Has there been anyone that has looked into the effect of a throttle body injection system like that VS port injection? Other than on the wallet and how long the 2 week install period is. Let us know when part 2 is up, would love to read it. It would be pretty cool if they built in or had some adds on's for position tracking; via g-sensor and/or GPS. They could also make provisions or a different version for DBW (drive by wire). With some combo of this and GPS, maybe with some wheel speed sensor add ons they could also add some traction/wheelie/etc control. It could make for a really interesting way to slowly step up the technical ladder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rally Pat Posted December 11, 2019 Report Share Posted December 11, 2019 One less engine toilet on the road Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cordell Posted December 11, 2019 Report Share Posted December 11, 2019 One less engine toilet on the road Road? Nice article Waggs. Looking forward to some race car articles next year for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rally Pat Posted December 11, 2019 Report Share Posted December 11, 2019 Strip, road, whatever. :\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitgeist57 Posted December 11, 2019 Report Share Posted December 11, 2019 Wieand?? Nice article, Wags! :thumbup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Maker Posted December 11, 2019 Report Share Posted December 11, 2019 The throttle is still cable driven. Same cable I was using on the DaVinci Dominator that was on the car when I got it. The TPS is built into the side of the throttle body unit. It really does seem about as plug-n-play as you could get with going considering that you are going from mechanical injection to ECU based FI. That's pretty awesome. I would assume most don't have an O2 sensor, I had to have a bung welded into my header for the 02 sensor. I'm still running leaded gas, so we'll see what that does to the 02 long term. I just didn't see options for 112 octane unleaded race gas, and I really don't want to get into mixing octane boosters into unleaded. I had totally forgotten about what leaded fuel is supposed to do to O2 sensors. Are most people tuning by plugs, feeling, speed/time, etc? I imagine the total actual run time isn't super high so maybe the replacement interval might be reasonable? How do you know when it's bad, or more importantly starting to go bad? It would be nice if the had some detection logic for this that could warn you when it had degraded enough to be a problem. I think this is could be a relatively common issue. We are using the bare minimum of control for the Sniper. Other than the O2 wire, and coolant temp, it's just power, ground, switched ignition, and tach. One of the big harnesses has only 1 wire being used. We de-pinned all the other wires coming out of it to cut down on excess. In the event of a wreck, I want positive control of the fuel pump and ignition. I also chose to maintain control of the radiator fan. So far I am pleased as hell with the system. I wonder how many people will just use the basics and be very happy with the changes VS go further for probably incremental benefit. It makes me wonder if the system is overdesigned (cost more than necessary) for most costumer actual use situations. ...I'm planning on adding a "Starting line enhancer" to the car .... They could easily build this into the Holley unit by still attaching your cable, but have that drive a sensor and use that to control a motor based throttle... basically like any DBW, but just leave the cable in there. They could even have a bolt on unit that does the same thing, to upgrade down the road. The benefit of this would be that you bring it into the loop of the Holley FIECU control and integrate it into the overall control architecture. They could even have the option of a DBW pedal from a modern car and just use a wire, or you could just keep the cable and that allows a mechanical backup which I imagine could be one of the benefits of the Starting line enhancers. You'll also have some resistance to going full DBW so having the DBW over mechanical cable would allow a higher adoption rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Cranium Posted December 12, 2019 Report Share Posted December 12, 2019 I wonder how many people will just use the basics and be very happy with the changes VS go further for probably incremental benefit. It makes me wonder if the system is overdesigned (cost more than necessary) for most costumer actual use situations. They could easily build this into the Holley unit by still attaching your cable, but have that drive a sensor and use that to control a motor based throttle... basically like any DBW, but just leave the cable in there. They could even have a bolt on unit that does the same thing, to upgrade down the road. The benefit of this would be that you bring it into the loop of the Holley FIECU control and integrate it into the overall control architecture. They could even have the option of a DBW pedal from a modern car and just use a wire, or you could just keep the cable and that allows a mechanical backup which I imagine could be one of the benefits of the Starting line enhancers. You'll also have some resistance to going full DBW so having the DBW over mechanical cable would allow a higher adoption rate. It is a bit over designed for racing, but it's a scaled up version of their street EFI system. The computer can control your fuel pump, cooling fan, ect... Use you key as your switched ignition source and the system will function without changing the way you normally start the car. DBW would offer some interesting tuning/programming options, but I'm sure NHRA would have a screaming fit. At least with the starting line enhancer there is positive mechanical control of the throttle. I have heard stories even of NHRA officials having a fit because the throttle was not exclusively controlled by the pedal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Maker Posted December 12, 2019 Report Share Posted December 12, 2019 DBW would offer some interesting tuning/programming options, but I'm sure NHRA would have a screaming fit. At least with the starting line enhancer there is positive mechanical control of the throttle. I have heard stories even of NHRA officials having a fit because the throttle was not exclusively controlled by the pedal. Hmm, if DBW systems can be made good enough for all of the transportation sector (auto, aero and trains) and allowed under the functional safety regulations for those sectors, I'm not sure what actual founded in engineering principles problems they might have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Cranium Posted December 12, 2019 Report Share Posted December 12, 2019 Hmm, if DBW systems can be made good enough for all of the transportation sector (auto, aero and trains) and allowed under the functional safety regulations for those sectors, I'm not sure what actual founded in engineering principles problems they might have. It's not a safety thing, it's an advantage problem. With drive by wire I could gain an advantage because the throttle is not exclusively controlled by the driver any more. Especially in a foot brake class it's all about reaction time and when you mat that throttle. "STARTING LINE CONTROLLERS Only pneumatic starting line controllers permitted in Advance E.T. and Super Pro only. Only mechanical starting line controllers permitted in Pro and Sportsman only. Use of mechanical device must be completely in driver’s control. Release of mechanical device must be spring activated only (released on full throttle activation). All other forms of starting line controllers prohibited in all E.T. classes." Here is another example. This one is specifically for Pro Mod, but I assume it is echoed for other classes as well. "Throttle control must be manually operated by driver’s foot. Electronics, pneumatics, or hydraulics is permitted for starting line/staging rpm limiters only. See General Regulations 1:12." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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