☆~PoLOLtics~☆

[cruizin01]

Two major things to look at here.

 

1)Pay for the employees. I promise the investors and board aren't hurting for money. Maybe pay the people that keep you afloat and they will stay.

 

2)You have a shortage of staff. (at my aunt's hospital they are currently at 10% understaffing) So your solution is to fire people for not getting the vaccine. (currently 33% of the staff at her hospital are on the list for termination for refusal to vaccinate) So now you are even more understaffed.

 

In other words, there are beds, there is equipment, you just don't have staff because of employment choices and pay scales. Drug companies are showing billions of dollars of quarterly profits. The government has a $100B fund that they are using to pay 20% extra for all people labeled COVID that are on medicare. Add in all the money for testing paid by the government. Hospitals should have more money to pay staff (which is proven when they pay travel nurses). If they quit lining their pockets, hospitals wouldn't be so "full".

 

Im not arguing those points but it seems to be par for the course. If I had to guess its cheaper to pay travel nurses temporarily than it is to give everyone raises in hopes that they stay long term. I know they've been offering pretty weak contracts to get try and get people to stay but people even leave after signing those, once the word gets out that the H doesn't go after anyone if they break the contract.

 

I know there's been a shortage of staff long before covid started so Im not convinced that they would be at 100% even if people weren't leaving. It's a rotating door in a lot of positions in health care as it seems too easy to just transfer/go somewhere else.

 

But yes, you're right it does seem like it could be managed better but for whatever reason its not. Covid just exacerbates the problem.

[99FLHRCI]

Ah, yes, the argument that "only vaccinated people get sick." I'm seeing this all over my community Facebook comments, and they either ignore the hospitalization statistics or claim they're being falsified.

 

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I did not say "only vaccinated people get sick". I did say that vaccinated people still get sick, still transmit and probably contribute to the majority of the false sense of security that results in transmission. The same thing happened when masks got popular. The "I have a mask/vaccine so I am okay and can do what I want" thought process.

 

People think they are "protected" and then engage in "unsafe" behaviors. Oh I can go on this cruise because only vaccinated people are going. Cruise ship on quarantine because of massive outbreak. I can ride this plane from Texas to DC without masks and post group photos. OOPS! We all got COVID.

 

I think there is a large group of vaccine hesitant that choose to isolate because they know the risk but aren't convinced to take the vaccine. So they stay home and social distance, wash hands often, take general precautions, etc. Just like I think their is a large group of vaccinated that run around partying and then put their mask on (that specifically states not for COVID or has zero medical purpose) when people are watching.

[99FLHRCI]

How many of those were due to COVID and how many were just listed as COVID when they were already dying of something else and may or may not have contracted it? Genuinely curious. Seeking learning and understanding.

 

While I cannot give you hard numbers on this, I can tell you my experience as a First Responder. In early 2020 we received direction from the State Fire Marshal and the Ohio Board of EMS. If we responded to a house fire, and it was determined that you had left a pot of food on the stove and forgot about it because you got tied up in a ZOOM meeting, we were supposed to ask if you normally worked from home. If you were home because of the shutdown, that was a "COVID Incident". If you were driving to the grocery store and got in a car accident during hours you normally would have been at work, that is a "COVID Incident". Cut your hand making your kids lunch who normally would have ate at school? "COVID Incident." Just like there are press conferences where it was specifically stated "Dying with COVID is the same as dying from COVID". When I started seeing things like this is when I really started getting hesitant and wanting more information.

[cruizin01]

I did not say "only vaccinated people get sick". I did say that vaccinated people still get sick, still transmit and probably contribute to the majority of the false sense of security that results in transmission. The same thing happened when masks got popular. The "I have a mask/vaccine so I am okay and can do what I want" thought process.

 

People think they are "protected" and then engage in "unsafe" behaviors. Oh I can go on this cruise because only vaccinated people are going. Cruise ship on quarantine because of massive outbreak. I can ride this plane from Texas to DC without masks and post group photos. OOPS! We all got COVID.

 

I think there is a large group of vaccine hesitant that choose to isolate because they know the risk but aren't convinced to take the vaccine. So they stay home and social distance, wash hands often, take general precautions, etc. Just like I think their is a large group of vaccinated that run around partying and then put their mask on (that specifically states not for COVID or has zero medical purpose) when people are watching.

 

You really think the virus is spread more from the vaccinated people in public than the unvaccinated? Ive met VERY few vaccine hesitant people compared to those that are convinced its either a hoax, won't be anything more than a cold or strictly won't get it just because they are being asked to get it.

 

If you look at a quick stat I read the other day from 13 states from April to July 2021, 92% (569,142) of the Covid cases were UNvaccinated. 8% (46,312) were vaccinated. If what you said is correct its even more obvious how well the vaccine works if people that are vaccinated are engaging in "unsafe" behavior.

[Mallard]

A better way to respect Mallard's dad would be to stop parroting this lie that only overweight and unhealthy people are dying. Tell everyone you know who's anti-vax about this guy you know whose dad was totally healthy and died anyway. And then encourage them to get the vaccine even if they're also healthy, so they don't suffer the same fate.

 

I'm not offended by this, I actually agree with it 100%. Had my dad not gotten sick in Oct, he would have had his first dose of the vaccine in Jan and been fully vaccinated in Feb. It's ~3 months. If he got COVID ~3 months later I believe he would still be alive.

 

Get vaccinated.

 

...

 

2)You have a shortage of staff. (at my aunt's hospital they are currently at 10% understaffing) So your solution is to fire people for not getting the vaccine. (currently 33% of the staff at her hospital are on the list for termination for refusal to vaccinate) So now you are even more understaffed.

The hospitals likely see some potential liability for having an unvaccinated staff member infecting the people they care for. If your business revolves around serving people who are immuno compromised or vulnerable to infection, I believe you do have a responsibility to get vaccinated.

 

The government has a $100B fund that they are using to pay 20% extra for all people labeled COVID that are on medicare. Add in all the money for testing paid by the government. Hospitals should have more money to pay staff (which is proven when they pay travel nurses). If they quit lining their pockets, hospitals wouldn't be so "full".

I wouldn't say that extra 20% is "lining the pockets" of the hospitals. When treating COVID patients they go through a lot more PPE than they used to, and costs of PPE as well as O2 hasn't remained stagnant. I would like more evidence that hospitals are making massive profits from this then an anecdote.

 

 

 

And looking at just COVID deaths doesn't account for the effects of the Pandemic. There were 1.5M excess deaths so far. 900,000 attributed to COVID. 600,000 other excess deaths. Those include people not getting vaccines because it was termed "elective" (over 17 million children worldwide missed vaccinations during "social distancing") and elective procedures were being denied, suicide/mental health, alcoholism, etc. Not to mention economic effects because of having to shut down "Joe's Diner" meanwhile we can still go to Big Box stores or cram 100K screaming fans into a sporting event.

There are lots of articles about these excess deaths and how COVID deaths are likely undercounted. It's not that 600k people OD'd on meth, died in a car accident, or committed suicide. The evidence points to COVID being undercounted.

 

 

 

While I cannot give you hard numbers on this, I can tell you my experience as a First Responder. In early 2020 we received direction from the State Fire Marshal and the Ohio Board of EMS. If we responded to a house fire, and it was determined that you had left a pot of food on the stove and forgot about it because you got tied up in a ZOOM meeting, we were supposed to ask if you normally worked from home. If you were home because of the shutdown, that was a "COVID Incident". If you were driving to the grocery store and got in a car accident during hours you normally would have been at work, that is a "COVID Incident". Cut your hand making your kids lunch who normally would have ate at school? "COVID Incident." Just like there are press conferences where it was specifically stated "Dying with COVID is the same as dying from COVID". When I started seeing things like this is when I really started getting hesitant and wanting more information.

You're insinuating here (whether on purpose or not) that COVID was falsely listed as a cause of death for a large number of people and for frivolous reasons, but an emergency response report is not a death certificate. Again, there are not hundreds of thousands of people that died from some random accident that got counted as a COVID death. The evidence points the other way; that COVID deaths are severely undercounted.

 

 

How many of those were due to COVID and how many were just listed as COVID when they were already dying of something else and may or may not have contracted it? Genuinely curious. Seeking learning and understanding.

There are not large numbers of people being counted as a COVID death when they were killed by some other random event, like a car accident, or a piano falling from the sky.

 

But this is where people try to cast doubt at the numbers of dead. Let's say you get COVID and you end up in the hospital. Your condition deteriorates and you need oxygen due to COVID pneumonia, eventually get intubated. Your blood pressure is also fluctuating and now you're on meds to try to stabilize this. Your kidney function decreases and you require dialysis. Then you get sepsis, or a number of many other complications that typically result. Organs start shutting down, blood pressure is harder to maintain. They stop the blood pressure meds and you die. What killed you? Was it sepsis? Renal failure? Heart failure? Etc? None of these would have happened if not for the COVID infection. COVID is one of several things listed on the death certificate, but without the COVID infection none of the rest would have happened.

 

However, people on the internet will try to tell you that it should only be counted as a COVID death if COVID is the ONLY thing listed on the death certificate, and equate sepsis/kidney failure/etc with someone who was in a car accident while COVID positive and claim COVID didn't kill you.

 

 

 

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[Mallard]

You really think the virus is spread more from the vaccinated people in public than the unvaccinated? Ive met VERY few vaccine hesitant people compared to those that are convinced its either a hoax, won't be anything more than a cold or strictly won't get it just because they are being asked to get it.

My favorite are the people who say that natural immunity is better than vaccinated immunity, so they are taking Vitamin C, D, and going out without masks to "exercise their immune system" in order to prepare for the infection.

 

Yes, this is real shit from real people in my community that are actively protesting masks in schools and the vaccine in general.

 

 

 

If you look at a quick stat I read the other day from 13 states from April to July 2021, 92% (569,142) of the Covid cases were UNvaccinated. 8% (46,312) were vaccinated. If what you said is correct its even more obvious how well the vaccine works if people that are vaccinated are engaging in "unsafe" behavior.

Yea, but someone's brother's sisters friend said on the internet that everyone they know who got the vaccine got COVID and died, so that's totally proof that the government is falsifying all the data in order to CONTROL everyone into getting the vax. Totally New World Order shit. For reals. Tucker told me so.

 

...I really need to stop reading the comments on my local community Facebook pages.

 

 

 

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[Mallard]

Going for a triple...

 

For the comments that Isreal has the highest % vaccinated yet has a massive outbreak...that's only if you count the % of the population that is eligible for the vaccine.

 

Remember when I wrote a few posts ago that population vaccination percentages aren't evenly distributed across age groups and demographics? Well, Isreal has a very young population, and over 25% of their population is ineligible for the shot.

 

Secondly, they got vaccinated very quickly, and 90% of those vaccinated received their 2nd dose over 5 months ago. Does this point to waning immunity? Some people want to say that's why we need a booster, based off antibodies present in blood tests (some even say it's not surprising that we would need one because typically we all would have gotten our 2nd shot a lot longer after the first, but we chose speed over efficacy). Other studies say not so fast, antibodies always wane over time, but are looking at bone marrow to understand whether there's some memory and our immune system will mount a response regardless. Don't take this as scientists flip flopping on issues either. Recommendations are made based on data, data is gathered through studies that take time, and those studies can be run in different ways, and results must be peer reviewed. Science is hard.

 

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[99FLHRCI]

You really think the virus is spread more from the vaccinated people in public than the unvaccinated?

 

Please highlight where I stated that. I said that they "probably contribute to the majority of the false sense of security that results in transmission". False sense of security is not the only way it is transmitted. Personal belief is asymptomatic carriers are probably the #1 transmission method.

[99FLHRCI]

The hospitals likely see some potential liability for having an unvaccinated staff member infecting the people they care for. If your business revolves around serving people who are immuno compromised or vulnerable to infection, I believe you do have a responsibility to get vaccinated.

 

Being a First Responder, we have not mandated it at the initial unsterile environment level. We generally only have absent people from government enforced quarantines after exposure. We are rarely seeing infections. Again, if the masks work, why the vaccine and if the vaccine works why the mask. In addition, the masks they/we are mostly wearing? Surgical masks that state "not for COVID". Only time we go above that is a known COVID case when we use what everyone should wear if they truly wanted them to work N-95 or higher. While pedaling this agenda to the public, we are being told if you have 2 or less symptoms come to work, it's okay.

 

 

I wouldn't say that extra 20% is "lining the pockets" of the hospitals. When treating COVID patients they go through a lot more PPE than they used to, and costs of PPE as well as O2 hasn't remained stagnant. I would like more evidence that hospitals are making massive profits from this then an anecdote.

 

It's funny you should mention PPE, have you seen the CARES Act money being thrown around? The free PPE? The lack of Hazard pay? Our rural Fire Department was given $400k for CARES Act money. Literally a full 1 year budget. We primarily run fire/rescue. We only do medical for things like lift assist, uncon/unres. That is a small fire department covering 3 rural townships, 2 villages, 75 sq mi. Multiply that across the US. Now add on to that the many boxes of free PPE we are still getting delivered directly to us, delivered locally to the EMA and allowed to go get for free.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2021/04/01/hospital-systems-cares-act-bailout/

 

 

You're insinuating here (whether on purpose or not) that COVID was falsely listed as a cause of death for a large number of people and for frivolous reasons, but an emergency response report is not a death certificate. Again, there are not hundreds of thousands of people that died from some random accident that got counted as a COVID death. The evidence points the other way; that COVID deaths are severely undercounted.

 

I'm stating (not insinuating) that we were instructed to mark incidents as COVID related when COVID had nothing to do with it. To compare it to the Excess Deaths topic, these would be Excess Incidents. They were Incidents that occurred as a result of the shutdown, as a result of our reaction to the Pandemic not because of the Pandemic itself.

 

 

 

There are not large numbers of people being counted as a COVID death when they were killed by some other random event, like a car accident, or a piano falling from the sky.

 

But this is where people try to cast doubt at the numbers of dead. Let's say you get COVID and you end up in the hospital. Your condition deteriorates and you need oxygen due to COVID pneumonia, eventually get intubated. Your blood pressure is also fluctuating and now you're on meds to try to stabilize this. Your kidney function decreases and you require dialysis. Then you get sepsis, or a number of many other complications that typically result. Organs start shutting down, blood pressure is harder to maintain. They stop the blood pressure meds and you die. What killed you? Was it sepsis? Renal failure? Heart failure? Etc? None of these would have happened if not for the COVID infection. COVID is one of several things listed on the death certificate, but without the COVID infection none of the rest would have happened.

 

However, people on the internet will try to tell you that it should only be counted as a COVID death if COVID is the ONLY thing listed on the death certificate, and equate sepsis/kidney failure/etc with someone who was in a car accident while COVID positive and claim COVID didn't kill you.

 

 

There are many people who were in Hospice, who had terminal conditions, who were after a predictable death tested for COVID and then listed as a COVID death. As the officials stated, "Dying with COVID is the same as dying from COVID". Last April, Deborah Birx, MD, coordinator of the White House Coronavirus Task Force, said this when asked about people who have COVID-19 but die from preexisting conditions: “If someone dies with COVID-19, we are counting that as a COVID-19 death.” They were stating things like a Hear Attack were caused by COVID and the original cause was COVID. Fast forward to this year when they begin discussing the first "breakthrough" deaths of vaccinated individuals. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Rochelle Walensky stated "Not all of those 223 cases who had COVID actually died of COVID," she said. "They may have had mild disease but died, for example, of a heart attack." All through this Pandemic people with cancer, and other illnesses that had predictions of even 30 days or less to live were marked as COVID deaths UNTIL it went against the vaccine agenda and talking points.

[cruizin01]

Please highlight where I stated that. I said that they "probably contribute to the majority of the false sense of security that results in transmission". False sense of security is not the only way it is transmitted. Personal belief is asymptomatic carriers are probably the #1 transmission method.

 

Not directly but your comments lead me to that assumption, at least the way I read it. If Im wrong then.. my bad.

 

I am curious to learn more about asymptomatic carriers though. I dont think there is a lot of info out there on it. I think though typically those that are asymptomatic typically turn symptomatic. That's what sucks about covid, spreading it when you are unaware. Iirc masks, etc work way better for cold and flu because when you can spread it and when you become symptomatic are tied pretty closely.

[99FLHRCI]

Going for a triple...

 

For the comments that Isreal has the highest % vaccinated yet has a massive outbreak...that's only if you count the % of the population that is eligible for the vaccine.

 

Remember when I wrote a few posts ago that population vaccination percentages aren't evenly distributed across age groups and demographics? Well, Isreal has a very young population, and over 25% of their population is ineligible for the shot.

 

Secondly, they got vaccinated very quickly, and 90% of those vaccinated received their 2nd dose over 5 months ago. Does this point to waning immunity? Some people want to say that's why we need a booster, based off antibodies present in blood tests (some even say it's not surprising that we would need one because typically we all would have gotten our 2nd shot a lot longer after the first, but we chose speed over efficacy). Other studies say not so fast, antibodies always wane over time, but are looking at bone marrow to understand whether there's some memory and our immune system will mount a response regardless. Don't take this as scientists flip flopping on issues either. Recommendations are made based on data, data is gathered through studies that take time, and those studies can be run in different ways, and results must be peer reviewed. Science is hard.

 

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Israel has administered 14,511,866 doses. That is enough for 80.1% of the population to receive 2 shots. Not 80.1% of the eligible population but, the total population.

 

To look at your exact words "Recommendations are made based on data, data is gathered through studies that take time, and those studies can be run in different ways, and results must be peer reviewed." That is all many of us are asking for is time. We want people to have the freedom to do as they choose. We want to see the data from studies. We want to see them run different ways. We want them to be peer reviewed. Sadly, those wants make us the devil incarnate and means that we are wishing death on our fellow humans and that we think this all a hoax. In reality, I just don't want to be the subject of the next commercial asking "Did you take the vaccine in 2020? Are you experiencing _____? Call Lawyer XYZ now!" After watching my Dad take FDA approved Humira for psoriasis and then have to fight for months to get a doctor to take his complaints serious only to find out he had developed cancer. The drug was FDA approved in 2002. Dad started taking it in August 2010. Diagnosed January of 2011. Dead February of 2012. I and many others just want long term data before we do something irreversible.

[greg1647545532]

Again, if the masks work, why the vaccine and if the vaccine works why the mask. In addition, the masks they/we are mostly wearing? Surgical masks that state "not for COVID". Only time we go above that is a known COVID case when we use what everyone should wear if they truly wanted them to work N-95 or higher.

 

I really don't understand how this is a talking point. Like, vaccines are not a silver bullet, and obviously with the new variants they're not even a bronze bullet. They help. Masks also appear to help, including surgical masks. N95 masks help even more. They're all part of the puzzle.

 

While pedaling this agenda to the public, we are being told if you have 2 or less symptoms come to work, it's okay.

 

That's fucked up.

 

I'm stating (not insinuating) that we were instructed to mark incidents as COVID related when COVID had nothing to do with it. To compare it to the Excess Deaths topic, these would be Excess Incidents. They were Incidents that occurred as a result of the shutdown, as a result of our reaction to the Pandemic not because of the Pandemic itself.

 

Do you know WHY you were being asked to do that? It sounds like a budgeting issue -- track how many incidents/expenses your unit has that you wouldn't have absent the pandemic. In which case, what you're describing isn't unreasonable, although IMHO that's not the best way to do it. I'm not a budget director, though. I'm curious if you know more about it. Of course, this isn't really related to whether or not COVID deaths are over or undercounted.

 

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Rochelle Walensky stated "Not all of those 223 cases who had COVID actually died of COVID," she said. "They may have had mild disease but died, for example, of a heart attack." All through this Pandemic people with cancer, and other illnesses that had predictions of even 30 days or less to live were marked as COVID deaths UNTIL it went against the vaccine agenda and talking points.

 

I'm not suggesting you've misrepresented anything here, but this quote has been taken out of context all over the place. It's worth considering that even a mild case of COVID could have made an otherwise survivable heart attack a deadly one. I've discussed in one of these earlier threads how all the internet lawyers think about death certificates all wrong so I won't rehash it all here.

[greg1647545532]

Israel has administered 14,511,866 doses. That is enough for 80.1% of the population to receive 2 shots. Not 80.1% of the eligible population but, the total population.

 

Israelis seem to be dying at a much lower rate than Americans. A quick look shows about 10k daily new cases during this current spike, and 20 deaths a day. The US is above 150k daily new cases, and over 1500 deaths a day.

 

Maybe Israel's high vaccination rate is keeping people out of the ground? I'm sure you'll come back and say that there are other factors, Israel's population is younger, etc. Sure. But this is not the slam dunk against vaccines.

[99FLHRCI]

Not directly but your comments lead me to that assumption, at least the way I read it. If Im wrong then.. my bad.

 

I am curious to learn more about asymptomatic carriers though. I dont think there is a lot of info out there on it. I think though typically those that are asymptomatic typically turn symptomatic. That's what sucks about covid, spreading it when you are unaware. Iirc masks, etc work way better for cold and flu because when you can spread it and when you become symptomatic are tied pretty closely.

 

In general with vaccines, it does not cure the problem, it cures the symptoms and makes you an asymptomatic carrier. It reduces viral load to a manageable level. Then those people can carry it to people who are unvaccinated or whose vaccine did not take well or who may have decreasing antibodies. There are many cases of resurgence when a vaccinated individual carries a sickness to an area that does not experience that sickness or does not vaccinate for that and all of a sudden you have a outbreak.

[greg1647545532]

In general with vaccines, it does not cure the problem, it cures the symptoms and makes you an asymptomatic carrier. It reduces viral load to a manageable level. Then those people can carry it to people who are unvaccinated or whose vaccine did not take well or who may have decreasing antibodies. There are many cases of resurgence when a vaccinated individual carries a sickness to an area that does not experience that sickness or does not vaccinate for that and all of a sudden you have a outbreak.

 

This is an excellent argument for the vaccinated to continue to wear masks.

[Geeto67]

Again, if the masks work, why the vaccine and if the vaccine works why the mask. In addition, the masks they/we are mostly wearing? Surgical masks that state "not for COVID". Only time we go above that is a known COVID case when we use what everyone should wear if they truly wanted them to work N-95 or higher. While pedaling this agenda to the public, we are being told if you have 2 or less symptoms come to work, it's okay.

 

I really don't understand how this is a talking point. Like, vaccines are not a silver bullet, and obviously with the new variants they're not even a bronze bullet. They help. Masks also appear to help, including surgical masks. N95 masks help even more. They're all part of the puzzle.

 

 

This brings up an interesting point about how most people, even those in front line roles, don't fully understand how risk stacking works.

 

to go back to the car safety analogy: your car has seatbelts, airbags, mandatory insurance, crumple zones, etc....each one of these things reduces risk of injiry or death in an accident, but no one thing prevents it 100% and most are more effective when used in conjunction with other measures.

 

Driving a newer car with crumple zones reduces your risk of injury because the shock no longer gets passed to the passengers in the car, so the risk of injury in a low speed accident is much lower, however it does not decrease in a higher speed accident. A seatbelt on its own lowers your risk of injury or death in both types, but when you stack it on top of each other seat belts and crumple zones reduce low, moderate and some high speed injuries. Add in airbags which don't mitigate low speed all that much, but are more effective in high speed - in aggregate the risk of injury with all three in the car is much much lower. Now add in insurance which means a person has broader access to care and is much less likely to die as a result of their injuries - that further lowers the risk of a bad outcome. that is how we decrease traffic deaths by 2/3rs between 1960 and 2018 - we stack our risk mitigation measures and we create a safer environment.

 

Same thing with masks and vaccines and social distancing. No one thing is a "cure", but all there lessens the risk by a considerable amount than any one thing on it's own. But there are lots of people who like to say "masks don't work" because on it's own it isn't mitigating enough risk and it requires the other two items to really bring the risk into tolerable levels. Very few people are doing all three so our current risk level is sub-optimal.

[Mallard]

Israel has administered 14,511,866 doses. That is enough for 80.1% of the population to receive 2 shots. Not 80.1% of the eligible population but, the total population.

 

 

 

To look at your exact words "Recommendations are made based on data, data is gathered through studies that take time, and those studies can be run in different ways, and results must be peer reviewed." That is all many of us are asking for is time. We want people to have the freedom to do as they choose. We want to see the data from studies. We want to see them run different ways. We want them to be peer reviewed. Sadly, those wants make us the devil incarnate and means that we are wishing death on our fellow humans and that we think this all a hoax. In reality, I just don't want to be the subject of the next commercial asking "Did you take the vaccine in 2020? Are you experiencing _____? Call Lawyer XYZ now!" After watching my Dad take FDA approved Humira for psoriasis and then have to fight for months to get a doctor to take his complaints serious only to find out he had developed cancer. The drug was FDA approved in 2002. Dad started taking it in August 2010. Diagnosed January of 2011. Dead February of 2012. I and many others just want long term data before we do something irreversible.

https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-vaccine-tracker/?areas=gbr&areas=isr&areas=usa&areas=eue&areas=can&areas=chn&areas=ind&cumulative=1&doses=total&populationAdjusted=1

 

 

First off, sorry about your father. And I understand your hesitancy.

 

Those 14.5 million doses account for 61.3% of the population. Most have had a 3rd shot by now.

 

 

As for masks and or vaccines not being effective, we're all playing a game of statistics here. Nothing is a 100%. I hear people around here saying things about "COVID doesn't exist there" when they see where masks are/aren't required as a way to confuse people, or convince them that all the rules are arbitrary.

 

Studies show a "basic" mask can be 20-50% effective over some interval of time. Obviously mask effectiveness depends on the construction and fit as well. Staying 6+ feet apart also lowers the probability by some %, as does better ventilation, and so on. All the rules are doing is trying to stack smaller, easy to implement actions on top of each other in order to achieve an overall probability of transmission that is much lower.

 

I see this constant argument from parents in my kids district arguing against masks by saying that they're not effective because it's not a 100% solution and it drives me crazy.

 

Like I said a long time ago in the other thread, I wish more people understood the concept of risk management and actually used it.

 

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[99FLHRCI]

I really don't understand how this is a talking point. Like, vaccines are not a silver bullet, and obviously with the new variants they're not even a bronze bullet. They help. Masks also appear to help, including surgical masks. N95 masks help even more. They're all part of the puzzle.

 

It goes along with the false sense of security. People think they have a mask that they are protected and they don't need to social distance, not go to that event, etc. When in reality, it may provide a sliver of protection, when used properly. Properly includes covering your nose, using in a sterile environment, discarding after every contact, etc. Meanwhile, most people wear the same mask all day or multiple days, touching it constantly, over only

their mouth, etc. That is where the false sense of security comes in and people spread it.

 

Simple test to do. Put your mask of choice on and go near a smoking area or someone that has recently smoked. Smoke is 1 micron in size. COVID is 0.05 microns. If you can smell it, it is passing through the barrier. In addition, COVID will attach to smoke particles allowing them to travel up to 20 ft further and to hang in the air for hours. As you smell that smoker passing your cubicle, your table, your workstation, etc it is exposing you. Things like N95, N100, HEPA filters are what is needed. Not the see through mask with novelty designs that everyone is pushing or even the Chinese surgical mask at every store entrance.

 

Do you know WHY you were being asked to do that? It sounds like a budgeting issue -- track how many incidents/expenses your unit has that you wouldn't have absent the pandemic. In which case, what you're describing isn't unreasonable, although IMHO that's not the best way to do it. I'm not a budget director, though. I'm curious if you know more about it. Of course, this isn't really related to whether or not COVID deaths are over or undercounted.

 

We do not get reimbursed from the state on any level. Budget is determined on a local level. Some places it is income tax, some sales tax, some property tax, etc. It all depends on how that area sets up it's laws and budget. They did not base CARES Act money based on number of calls run, free PPE based on calls run, no Hazard pay, nothing financially gained.

 

https://www.com.ohio.gov/documents/COVID-19NFIRSRelease.pdf

 

 

I'm not suggesting you've misrepresented anything here, but this quote has been taken out of context all over the place. It's worth considering that even a mild case of COVID could have made an otherwise survivable heart attack a deadly one. I've discussed in one of these earlier threads how all the internet lawyers think about death certificates all wrong so I won't rehash it all here.

 

I agree but as always there are 2 sides to the coin. The guy with stage 4 cancer with 30 days to live may have only made it 20 days because of COVID. But logic tells you he did not die OF COVID. Had he not had stage 4 cancer, he may have survived. Just like without COVID, the Heart Attack may be survivable. At the end of the day, the cancer was the cause. Not the fact the heart stopped beating, the lungs stopped working, or the COVID.

[cruizin01]

" After watching my Dad take FDA approved Humira for psoriasis and then have to fight for months to get a doctor to take his complaints serious only to find out he had developed cancer. The drug was FDA approved in 2002. Dad started taking it in August 2010. Diagnosed January of 2011. Dead February of 2012. I and many others just want long term data before we do something irreversible.

 

Sucks you lost your dad in situations like this.

 

Isn't Humira an immune suppressant? I know Humira is used for Crohns as well. The medication I take for Crohns makes me a lot more susceptible to other infections and diseases.

 

Im trying to tread lightly here but just because the time frame fits doesn't mean the drug caused your dads cancer right?

[99FLHRCI]

https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-vaccine-tracker/?areas=gbr&areas=isr&areas=usa&areas=eue&areas=can&areas=chn&areas=ind&cumulative=1&doses=total&populationAdjusted=1

 

https://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus-tracker-and-maps/countries-and-territories/israel/

 

There are tons of numbers from tons of sites. There is where the 80.1% came from.

 

I agree risk stacking works. Again flip side of the coin. A non-mask wearer who frequently washes their hands, isn't constantly touching their face, etc. against Karen yelling at you about your mask while she half wears her unwashed fabric peace mask while touching everything in site. There are extremes on both sides. I think there is a time and place for everything. Do i think there should be 100k screaming maskless fans in a stadium? No. Do I think it is a big deal to walk down an empty aisle in my local gas station to grab a candy bar? Also, no.

[cruizin01]

 

Simple test to do. Put your mask of choice on and go near a smoking area or someone that has recently smoked. Smoke is 1 micron in size. COVID is 0.05 microns. If you can smell it, it is passing through the barrier. In addition, COVID will attach to smoke particles allowing them to travel up to 20 ft further and to hang in the air for hours. As you smell that smoker passing your cubicle, your table, your workstation, etc it is exposing you. Things like N95, N100, HEPA filters are what is needed. Not the see through mask with novelty designs that everyone is pushing or even the Chinese surgical mask at every store entrance.

 

 

 

I listened to this argument with a virologist, immunologist and microbiologist about this topic the other day. The short version is, the virus often attaches itself to droplets in your mouth. These droplets can vary in size. Masking helps catch these larger droplets that carry "larger" amounts of corona virus. 1 individual virus cell or whatever doesn't cause an infection. It takes "some" amount to infect someone. Again not a perfect system but it can cut down on the transfer from human to human.

 

If Im wrong on this someone can happily call me out.

[zeitgeist57]

I just rescheduled a happy hour get-together with a friend...he is just coming back into the office after being home for "breakthrough COVID". He, his wife, and his parents who came to visit a couple of weeks ago all contracted COVID despite everyone already having the vaccine.

 

I'm going to find out what happened when we meet next week, but maybe - just maybe - having been vaxxed helped diminish the impact of COVID on their bodies, as vaccines have done for humans over the last 100+ years.

 

My greatly oversimplified stance on COVID is: since we now have to live with it forever, we should get vaccines.

[greg1647545532]

It goes along with the false sense of security. People think they have a mask that they are protected and they don't need to social distance, not go to that event, etc. When in reality, it may provide a sliver of protection, when used properly. Properly includes covering your nose, using in a sterile environment, discarding after every contact, etc. Meanwhile, most people wear the same mask all day or multiple days, touching it constantly, over only

their mouth, etc. That is where the false sense of security comes in and people spread it.

 

I agree, but what's the alternative? Refuse the vaccine, don't wear a mask, and just say fuck it? The establishment is trying it's best, with some missteps, to convince Americans that all of these components are necessary. And then the "other side" is doing everything they can do cast doubt and aspersions on the CDC, the FDA, Pfizer, doctors, you name it.

 

Who's doing more harm in that situation? If the false sense of security bothers you, then you should get vaxxed, wear a mask, and spread the gospel of "stacking," to use Kerry's word. Not do the exact opposite.

 

I agree but as always there are 2 sides to the coin. The guy with stage 4 cancer with 30 days to live may have only made it 20 days because of COVID. But logic tells you he did not die OF COVID. Had he not had stage 4 cancer, he may have survived. Just like without COVID, the Heart Attack may be survivable. At the end of the day, the cancer was the cause. Not the fact the heart stopped beating, the lungs stopped working, or the COVID.

 

Sure. That's an edge case. What bothers me is the thought that 1) this is a significant enough event that it could affect public policy, and 2) that all of the eggheads, data scientists, and epidemiologists combined haven't considered this in their research and recommendations.

 

Like... it's not that clever of a thought, to put it a dickish way.

[greg1647545532]

I listened to this argument with a virologist, immunologist and microbiologist about this topic the other day. The short version is, the virus often attaches itself to droplets in your mouth. These droplets can vary in size. Masking helps catch these larger droplets that carry "larger" amounts of corona virus. 1 individual virus cell or whatever doesn't cause an infection. It takes "some" amount to infect someone. Again not a perfect system but it can cut down on the transfer from human to human.

 

If Im wrong on this someone can happily call me out.

 

That's accurate. And COVID research overturned 100+ years of bad science in regards to aerosol transmissions that dated back to the TB days.

[Mallard]

https://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus-tracker-and-maps/countries-and-territories/israel/

 

 

 

There are tons of numbers from tons of sites. There is where the 80.1% came from.

 

 

 

I agree risk stacking works. Again flip side of the coin. A non-mask wearer who frequently washes their hands, isn't constantly touching their face, etc. against Karen yelling at you about your mask while she half wears her unwashed fabric peace mask while touching everything in site. There are extremes on both sides. I think there is a time and place for everything. Do i think there should be 100k screaming maskless fans in a stadium? No. Do I think it is a big deal to walk down an empty aisle in my local gas station to grab a candy bar? Also, no.

From that site:

Vaccination

 

Israel has administered at least^14,511,866^doses of COVID vaccines so far. Assuming every person needs 2 doses, that’s enough to have vaccinated about^80.1%^of the country’s population.

 

^About this data

 

This vaccine rollout data is reported by the number of doses of coronavirus vaccines administered,^not^the number of people who have been vaccinated. Because most vaccines require two doses and many countries have different schedules to deliver the second dose, we don’t know with this data how many people have ultimately received both doses.

 

So it's admittedly inaccurate, knowing that a large portion of those who have received 2 doses have already got a 3rd (the chart I attached earlier)

 

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