Officially offering photography

[fusion]

Dang it, re-open your Cleveland stores. We need you up here. One would be enough. Since we are sharing photo collections...here are my favorites of mine:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimkennedy/sets/72157602708486183/show/

Great shots thanks for sharing.

[garysol1]

I would like to share a few of mine as well........

Edited January 29, 2010 by garysol1

[Likwid]

May as well post some too. Was having a hell of a time with the lighting so I had to move the ISO up a bit.

No cropping

Adding a couple

Edited January 29, 2010 by Likwid

[Dubguy85]

Your stills are great, the action ones are a bit blurry... But nice pics for the most part

[Likwid]

Your stills are great, the action ones are a bit blurry... But nice pics for the most part

Thanks, the lighting SUCKED so I had to use a slower SS than I wanted, even when moving the ISO to 800.

Just don't have the cash for a lens that has a bigger aperture and zoom.

[Funjunkie]

I think the only way to settle this pissing match is to post up your best shot of your significant others' in the nude, or an ORDN member in the nude.

Any of the ladies willing to volunteer for the sake of art, Mj, Gsxrgirl, ChickOn2?

I like this idea.. And since were posting photo websites... Heres mine.

Tell me what you think.

http://terryjordanphotography.com/

http://twojordansimaging.com/

[Likwid]

I like this idea.. And since were posting photo websites... Heres mine.

Tell me what you think.

http://terryjordanphotography.com/

http://twojordansimaging.com/

Lots of nice pictures in there.

But I have to make one joke

lol sorry

[RFM]

Dang it, re-open your Cleveland stores. We need you up here. One would be enough. Since we are sharing photo collections...here are my favorites of mine:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimkennedy/sets/72157602708486183/show/

Great shots! Funny how we just created the Cleveland Superstore, and walked from it within the span of a year or so... The changing economics affects us all. I know there is growth ambition again though, just more limited in scope...

[Funjunkie]

He he he, B nice.

Heres one from a series I did for a builder that was on the cover of easyriders August 09. Its a little off topic, but i thought you might like it.

[Likwid]

He he he, B nice.

Heres one from a series I did for a builder that was on the cover of easyriders August 09. Its a little off topic, but i thought you might like it.

I don't really care about OT

Where's the bike though.... oh right

[Likwid]

Not sure, should probably open a new thread in OT but whatever.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=817855

Good read for the folks who want to yell and scream about how they're professional and how so much work out there is crap. It's like bitching about indie bands, music is music, it's only worth as much as someone is willing to pay, not how much YOU think it's worth

[fusion]

I read that thread. It's not a good read at all.

[Likwid]

I read that thread. It's not a good read at all.

Only because you believe something different

Just stumbled upon this... http://blog.chasejarvis.com/live/

Never paid much attention to "big names" so apologies if this a repost and everyone is already checking this out.

[fusion]

Only because you believe something different

Just stumbled upon this... http://blog.chasejarvis.com/live/

Never paid much attention to "big names" so apologies if this a repost and everyone is already checking this out.

I'm guessing you really didn't read that thread. Where does it say anything about a comparison of being a professional and work being crap. The link included in the thread agrees with me. It's mostly about marketing. Just because you can sell photo services doesn't mean you don't suck.

EDIT: That is an in general you not meaning you specifically.

Edited January 29, 2010 by fusion

[Moto-Brian]

Ok...

Here's the drill. This coming from an STT person as well as a racer who has had a share amount of photos taken and what is charged and what is expected on the racers' end...

STT rules first and most rules for most companies doing track days.

1) Typically, a photographer is set for our days. Not always, but if there is an official photographer, you can shoot the traditional shots that people take in the pits, etc. You selling them from that event would not be tolerated. You also would not have access nor be allowed access the official photographer would have so, your shots are going to be in traditional spots and from places not optimal.

2) IF you would be allowed to take pics and be allowed to sell your product, we typically look at photgraphers and their portfolio. If I see wedding pics, stills, and some artsy stuff, I'm probably going to pass on having you shoot with intention of having our customers pay. If you want to offer your services free to get started, that's different.

3) The idea behind what Flounder is saying is somewhat true. Depending on the situation at hand - say a private session or a test with equipment that is not wanting to be seen yet to the GP, pics can be banned and not allowed. If they are banned from using, they need to state that as you enter and any cameras confiscated and not allowed to be used. In that case, if you do take pics and then post them, you can get into some issues...

However, in an event like a track day, you can do whatever you want, but if there was an official photographer and you are selling pics under him from our events, you won't be allowed to come most likely the next time. Fool me once type of thing...

Finally, the track and the organization that is holding the event can use pictures in advertising and such if taken at an event and submitted. It states that in the fine print when you sign the waiver... Worth reading...

Overall, my suggestion is this. If you want to take pics, ask. Call us or whomever you are going to be shooting with and make sure there is no conflict. I have an official guy there and you are climbing fences to get pics, you're going to be asked to leave. At Mid-Ohio, the corner workers kept a good eye out and they knew who the official guy was. The official guy was allowed access within the guidelines of the Mid-Ohio staff. If someone else w/o permission (i.e. not an official photographer) was doing the same things, the cornerworkers got ahold of me and we give them the riot act. They are then told they can shoot only from the hot pit, the garages and in the pits and nothing more. They can shoot from a spectator perspective and that's the closest they can get. If they have professional equipment, we treat it like a pro football event. A certain size lens and you keep it in the car... Rules are rules...

In the end, get some practice. The prices some of these guys charge is insane. Typically, you are doing it all digitally and one CD isn't worth $100 unless you are Bryan Nelson or similar. Watch the costs associated and don't think you can get the same as established race photographers... You'll get some customers, but when they get the CD and see how lame it really is for the money, word travels REALLY fast...

[fusion]

3) The idea behind what Flounder is saying is somewhat true. Depending on the situation at hand - say a private session or a test with equipment that is not wanting to be seen yet to the GP, pics can be banned and not allowed. If they are banned from using, they need to state that as you enter and any cameras confiscated and not allowed to be used. In that case, if you do take pics and then post them, you can get into some issues...

Flounder's claim of ownership is what we were arguing and in that case he is completely wrong.

[Likwid]

If the track allows photographers or grants press access it doesn't matter who the "official" photographer is, the only difference is who has the license to sell to individuals, but that's only if it's specified in your entering the exhibit... all other cases it's just a matter of an organizer recommending someone. (I think that's what you are saying too though, since anyone climbing fences obviously wasn't granted permission).

I didn't realize STT told Nelson Ledges (I had said Beaver before meant to say NL) they were restricting photography to their official photographer, especially since the owner specifically mentioned SCCA as being the only ones that have restrictions at THEIR track.

That being said, I always find it amusing when folks restrict photography, most of the tracks that run well and make money don't bend to demands from people that rent the track, but meh, for every place you're told "No" you can find about 100 more that have no problem with it.

Edited January 29, 2010 by Likwid

[Likwid]

Flounder's claim of ownership is what we were arguing and in that case he is completely wrong.

Exactly, Apple can say "no photography", and they can say "You can't sell these images".... but they don't own images you take unless they SPECIFICALLY hire you to take the pictures, and even then it can't be "contracted work".

[fox_racing_guy]

You might want to hit up some of the local MX tracks as well for practice. The bikes there are moving much slower compared to road racing tracks and you can generally go any place on the track that you like. You will definitely have to clean your equipment more often but you can get some great shots as well.

[Likwid]

I always like your stuff Fox

[fusion]

Those are great. I'm going to have to get out to a track to try it more this year.

[Likwid]

Those are great. I'm going to have to get out to a track to try it more this year.

Let me know when, we can go get some food and beer after

[Moto-Brian]

If the track allows photographers or grants press access it doesn't matter who the "official" photographer is, the only difference is who has the license to sell to individuals, but that's only if it's specified in your entering the exhibit... all other cases it's just a matter of an organizer recommending someone. (I think that's what you are saying too though, since anyone climbing fences obviously wasn't granted permission).

Actually, if a track day org or a race org is running an event, you follow both rules - the track and the org's... That being said, if we are running an event and we have an official photographer and you are also taking pics and selling them or with the thought of selling them, we can ask you not to and ask you to leave if you do not do so... It's the organization's event and they can set the rules as to who does and doesn't take pics and for what reason.

Also, if you are going to sell and you get into a copyright issue or similar, you better be able to show you are a business. And, if you cannot and you are shown to be selling your product or services and it is shown that you are not a legit business, you can be in some trouble and it all becomes moot...

I didn't realize STT told Nelson Ledges (I had said Beaver before meant to say NL) they were restricting photography to their official photographer, especially since the owner specifically mentioned SCCA as being the only ones that have restrictions at THEIR track.

We are not up at Nelsons. But, at Mid-Ohio as the example I used as it is what I was directing at every event, we establish official photographers that are introduced to the customers at Rider's Meeting and are allowed and granted access to areas not normally allowed by the general public. Again, to get a good shot, you have to have a big lens and also need to be in a good spot. If you have one of those pro lenses as seen at the football games and at the races by the guys poking through the catch fences, you are going to be there with intentions to sell. If you have one that big and are doing it for no money intended, you're fine as you can still get some cool shots from the hot pit and at the top of the keyhole, carousel, etc. But, typically, guys want a better angle and that requires poking through the camera holes in the fence lines and that's a no go unless you are allowed access...

That being said, I always find it amusing when folks restrict photography, most of the tracks that run well and make money don't bend to demands from people that rent the track, but meh, for every place you're told "No" you can find about 100 more that have no problem with it.

There isn't a single track day company that is going to allow guys to freelance and do whatever they want. Their insurance will not allow it. The track is also not going to allow it as their insurance isn't going to allow it either.

Raceday events are different as you have to provide credentials, sign waivers, etc. They also are with magazines, pro photographers and are working for industry people. They don't allow Joe Public to get down past fences and behind the tire walls, etc. Not a single person will be allowed to do so. You climb a fence at any track and you are not authorized to do so, you'll get in deep shit quick.

As for the private events, like I said, if we have an official photographer, do you honestly feel it's fair to take money away from him/them? Guy travels to a track day and is figuring on making and selling pics to support what he does and his expenses. Meanwhile, you show up, take a bunch of pics and sell to the same crowd? That's pretty low as it isn't fair to undercut someone...

[Likwid]

As for the private events, like I said, if we have an official photographer, do you honestly feel it's fair to take money away from him/them? Guy travels to a track day and is figuring on making and selling pics to support what he does and his expenses. Meanwhile, you show up, take a bunch of pics and sell to the same crowd? That's pretty low as it isn't fair to undercut someone...

Here's the thing, if Person X sells images for $1 and Person Y sells them for $10.... if folks are buying the pictures at $1 guess what? The other pictures aren't WORTH $10.

I've heard plenty of complaints from folks that the "official track shots" weren't what they expected and were too expensive. All in all, it's about who the organizer is pushing, and how much people are willing to pay.

But the last I've seen, I've never heard someone raving "I use STT/MO/FT because they have an awesome photographer!"... maybe they're all saying that other places.

[Likwid]

Also just to add. There are lots of folks who just want pictures of themselves riding (including myself)... it's easy to get those shots on back roads too, just a little safer at the track.