Moto-Brian Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 I'm done. I'm not blaming VW. Quite the contrary. The pads looked worn. Just saying that had he seen the crumbling, he might have changed pads and avoided this. Crumbling isn't good. Can we all agree on that part?Second, I was simply saying once is enough. Second threads with videos is another series of the same thing. We only need one thread and one version and can discuss.Why is it that the WERA guys can say the same thing and not be dicks, but I am here...? Here's my final thought. Buy C/L if you want. If you feel the newer C55s are possibly going to fail? Stay away from them. Easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Alright... Been thinking this over and want to apologize that I was wrong. I shouldn't have been a dick about what VW was doing. I guess I just thought that multiple posts seemed over the top. I was wrong. People obviously have a right to know and understand what product went south on him.I didn't want to edit my three posts above as I don't want to look like a guy who renigs on what he says. I felt that way and after thinking about it, it makes sense to make some posts.Glad everything turned out OK. I'm still a little upset over the idea that I could have prevented this. I won't go there, but I meant no harm to anyone and certainly wasn't recommending C/L to anyone who asked when they were still C44s. C55s as of right now are a good choice in my mind. Been on the likes of go fast stars like Robert Jensen and honestly, he's had a failure with the C44s, too. I think that VW and I are the only ones to have lost the compound as the others i know of got to the pits and pulled calipers and the compounds fell out...Sorry, guys. I'm not trying to cover anything up, blame anyone like VW or anything of the sort. I just got jumpy and felt it was bashing more than explaining... Mathias will take good care of him. He's a stand up guy.Cheers and apologies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 good on you brian...I think we've enough, Luckily nobody got hurt, and the issue has been taken care of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vw151 Posted March 28, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Alright... Been thinking this over and want to apologize that I was wrong. I shouldn't have been a dick about what VW was doing. I guess I just thought that multiple posts seemed over the top. I was wrong. People obviously have a right to know and understand what product went south on him.I didn't want to edit my three posts above as I don't want to look like a guy who renigs on what he says. I felt that way and after thinking about it, it makes sense to make some posts.Glad everything turned out OK. I'm still a little upset over the idea that I could have prevented this. I won't go there, but I meant no harm to anyone and certainly wasn't recommending C/L to anyone who asked when they were still C44s. C55s as of right now are a good choice in my mind. Been on the likes of go fast stars like Robert Jensen and honestly, he's had a failure with the C44s, too. I think that VW and I are the only ones to have lost the compound as the others i know of got to the pits and pulled calipers and the compounds fell out...Sorry, guys. I'm not trying to cover anything up, blame anyone like VW or anything of the sort. I just got jumpy and felt it was bashing more than explaining... Mathias will take good care of him. He's a stand up guy.Cheers and apologies.Brian, I sincerely appreciate your apology. I may be a picture whore and I might even like reading everyone's response to stuff like this but at the end of the day I'm just trying to look out for my fellow rider. I'm glad you came around. I was sincerely frightened by my situation and genuinely pissed off. I just wanted to share because this sort of thing isn't something I'd wish on my enemy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vw151 Posted March 28, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 (edited) Just wanted to share some more details.vw151, please post up what their recommendation is for folks that have the C44 pads.I plan to. Most of the people I ride on the track with regularly are running the same pads or the SBK pads.So what was the recommendation for folks that have the C44 pads?Mathias more or less told me that the C44 pads and C55 pads should be identical in terms of reliability. He gave me the same song and dance I heard on the wera forum about keeping the pistons/pucks clean, dragging pads can cause this problem, and don't use brake cleaner use soap and water. He also admitted to having this problem with these pads in 2007 but didn't say how many cases. He was very nice but basically told me very little. Having said that I have taken more pictures of the pads and noticed a few things. The pad that failded had this inscribed on the back plate.2251-C44 42/5here is a picture for referance.I noticed that the only other pad I had that had the same inscription looked a little ate up. I also had 2 pads that had the inscription 2251-C44 09/5They seemed to be in better shape. anyway, here are all of the pictures I took today. I thought about only posting the good one's but I figured what the hell you can all judge as well as I can. So enjoy. I think you can see in the pictures the pad that is crumbling more than the others. It is the one that is marked 42/5 but is not missing it's friction material. Of course the one missing it's friction material entirely is the other 42/5 brake pad. I won't tell anyone what to do, but in my humble opinion. If your brake pads say 2251-C44 42/5I would replace them. I'm just a lowly track day rider who can provide no discounts or refunds but my opinion is that. I've got to admit. My work bench looks pretty sweet albeit nerdy as well. Edited March 30, 2010 by vw151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 The crazy thing is when you look at the pic with them all in line left to right.... The far left one is crumbling a ton around the edges. The next one is crumbling as well... The last right one with compound still on it is almost perfect. Was that one matched up with the one that failed?All mine were crumbling like the far left one... I'm wondering if they are breaking down for some reason and the compound becomes brittle from braking and then cooling...My C55s look like the far right one (with compound)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Also, the far right one w/o compound looks to be discolored compared to the others. Could have been from direct contact with the rotor, however...The last one on the right with compound appears to also be seperating from the backing? Or is that just the light? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vw151 Posted March 28, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Also, the far right one w/o compound looks to be discolored compared to the others. Could have been from direct contact with the rotor, however...The last one on the right with compound appears to also be seperating from the backing? Or is that just the light?I did the best I could to capture what they looked like but the far left one looked kinda bad. The 2 in the middle seemed pretty decent to me. The only one in person that seemed pretty out of the ordinary to me was the far left. It was also the other pad that was marked 42/5 on the back . I am not sure what those number are for but it's the only thing that differentiated the pads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 I did the best I could to capture what they looked like but the far left one looked kinda bad. The 2 in the middle seemed pretty decent to me. The only one in person that seemed pretty out of the ordinary to me was the far left. It was also the other pad that was marked 42/5 on the back . I am not sure what those number are for but it's the only thing that differentiated the pads.MIGHT be batch numbers. Maybe something like 42nd batch of May... Something like that. Was it the one matched up with the one that failed? Or, was it with the one next to it with the 09/5? Hmmm... Wish I took pics of the backs of mine...Here's the wear I was getting. It was crumbling pretty badly. That's why I am wondering if maybe I was doing something wrong? Maybe the rotors needed sandblasted to get any residue from the Vesrahs I was using, etc. Wouldn't think so, but was wondering... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serpentracer Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 (edited) brian, you should always clean a set of rotors when changing your pads. well that is if you want the new set to bed in properly and reach their max potential.but you can do it at home.http://www.braketech.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=83&Itemid=100 Edited March 28, 2010 by serpentracer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vw151 Posted March 29, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 MIGHT be batch numbers. Maybe something like 42nd batch of May... Something like that. Was it the one matched up with the one that failed? Or, was it with the one next to it with the 09/5? Hmmm... Wish I took pics of the backs of mine...Here's the wear I was getting. It was crumbling pretty badly. That's why I am wondering if maybe I was doing something wrong? Maybe the rotors needed sandblasted to get any residue from the Vesrahs I was using, etc. Wouldn't think so, but was wondering...Wow, those look pretty bad. Brian, I wish I would have paid more attention to which pad was paired together when I pulled them out. I didn't really look at the markings on the back to differentiate the pads until I got home. So all I have is the markings, don't know which pads where on which rotor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiegler guy Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 I think it is time for me to comment regarding this subject. My name is Matthias Schaub and I am the president of Spiegler Performance Parts. Approximately 2 weeks ago we received a phone call from a dealership that their customer, Joseph Hansen, had a brake pad failure on a race track. I asked them to send the brake pads back to us so that we can inspect them and that we would replace them. As of 03/30/10 we have yet to receive the brake pads. On Friday 03/26/10 I received a phone call from Joseph that he wanted to stop by at Spiegler on Saturday to drop off the brake pads in question, but he never showed. My impressions are solely from the photos and information given since we do not have the physical product. From what I can see from the pictures, those pads should have been replaced. You don’t run the same tires for 6 events either (even if they still look good…). The pad did not separate from the backing plate; there is still pad material left on the backing plate. When the brake pad compound wears down, the pads heat up faster and the pads get hotter because there is not enough pad material. This means the pad will wear faster, and if there is not enough material, failure might happen. There is no blame on the manufacturer Carbone Lorraine. Joseph is spending a lot of time on many forums to give the Carbone Lorraine brake pads a bad name instead of sending us the pads for exchange. I would like to send those to Paris for evaluation. I offered him new pads, but up to today I have not had further contact with him. My offer to Joseph still stands to replace those pads at no cost. One unfortunate thing with racing is that stuff breaks. We all see this on TV, at races and so on. Just last Sunday in Formula 1, the brake rotor from the leading driver (Vettel) failed. Even the most sophisticated machinery with the best engineers has to encounter failures. Tires, sprockets, con rods, crankshafts, chains and many more parts are failing. And that can have many different causes. In regards to the C44 racing brake pads; yes, I know of 3 failures which happened in 2007 and 2008. One was Robert Jensen; one half of the pad fell of when he was changing front wheels. We could not determine why this happened. Robert is extremely hard on the brakes and did not have any other issues. He goes through approximately 40-60 cards a season and uses them for 7 years now and you all know about the results. We sent the brake pads back to the factory in Paris, France for analysis. It is not easy to determine while those failures are happening as there are several factors which could cause it. Just to list a few; not replacing the pads when they should have been replaced, manufacturing mistake, improper installation, lack of maintenance, etc... One mistake made during the mounting process could be that the brake pads received a shock during installation of the calipers. Example: The calipers don’t slide easily over the brake rotors (one of the pads is cocked) and the mechanic/rider is smacking the caliper over the rotor. That might cause a hair crack in the pad material. This crack is now getting bigger and bigger during riding and finally the pad material separates. I’m not saying this was the cause, but sometimes little things that are not realized can have an effect. These failures happen from time to time and they happen to many brands of brake pads. I know of stock brake pads which fell of from street bikes (never been on the track). All C44 racing pads have been replaced with the C55 racing compound and I am not aware of any failures. Since 2000 we have sold thousands of Carbone Lorraine brake pads every year and did not have one case with a street brake pad where the material separated. Carbone Lorraine has an excellent reputation and just to list a few accomplishments:- Steeve Rapp just finished the 2010 Daytona 200 on the podium as 3rd. He also finished Fontana 3rd and seventh. He is using Carbone Lorraine C55 brake pads- 600 Supersport World Champion in 2000 and 2002 (Joerg Teuchert, Fabian Foret)- Endurance World Champion 1983, 1987, 1988, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 and yes that means all those 24 hour races…- World Superbike 2006, Regis Lacconi on the factory Kawasaki and C44 brake pads!- 125 GP, Johann Zarco in 2009- They have countless French championships- WERA National Championship 2006 C Superstock, Robert Jensen - WERA National Championship 2006 Formula 1, Robert Jensen - WERA National Championship 2007 C Superstock, Robert Jensen - WERA National Championship 2007 B Superstock, Robert Jensen - WERA National Championship 2008 B Superstock, Robert Jensen - WERA National Championship 2008 Formula 1, Robert Jensen - WERA National Championship 2008 A Superstock, Robert Jensen - Winner Red Bull Rookies Cup in 2008- World champion in 2007 Motocross MX3 - And many more I also talked to Carbone Lorraine this morning and they offer to investigate the failure and will comment on this. We are always here to help our dealer ships and customers. If you have any questions or concerns feel free to contact us at 937-291-1735 or email us. Thank you, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vw151 Posted March 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 (edited) Mathias, I apologize for my slowness. I have dropped the pads in the mail today at lunch. I never made it to Dayton Saturday and had a very busy day at work yesterday. They said you should receive them tomorrow. 0310 0480 0001 0557 7533 I look forward to hearing what the people in France have to say Edited March 30, 2010 by vw151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbot Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 since you're here, would you mind doing a little QA? we can do PM's if you prefer.i had just gotten a set of your brake lines as well as a set of SBK5/XBK5 pads (these were ordered through STG who I'm guessing ordered from you? I'm not sure how the whole thing works) and was wondering if the SBK or XBK pads had any such issues that you knew of? I'm a mid pack intermediate rider, which is why many people suggested I go with the SBK's instead of the c44/c55's.Also, are there any differences between an SBK5 and XBK5?thanks for your time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garysol1 Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 From what I can see from the pictures, those pads should have been replaced. You don’t run the same tires for 6 events either (even if they still look good…). The pad did not separate from the backing plate; there is still pad material left on the backing plate. ] Really? Seriously? You are saying the pad material did not separate from the backing plate as seen in the picture above? I understand you need to CYA but seriously? I do agree that the pads should have been replaced but that is still no excuse for the unbonding that took place. I have been wrong before and ill be wrong again but damn if that does not look like separation to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garysol1 Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Now' date=' have some more of this delicious KoolAid and try not to interrupt. Geez.. the nerve of some people.[/quote']Ill hush up and go sit in the back of the room with my bag of popcorn now...... Please proceed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiegler guy Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Really? Seriously? You are saying the pad material did not separate from the backing plate as seen in the picture above? I understand you need to CYA but seriously? I do agree that the pads should have been replaced but that is still no excuse for the unbonding that took place. I have been wrong before and ill be wrong again but damn if that does not look like separation to me.I know, that sounds strange, but here is the process:When Carbone Lorraine Sintered Pads are formed, the pad puck and backing plate are heated, and a filler metal is drawn into the joint to bond them together via capillary action. This process is different from welding because the temperature is considerably lower, and the base metals being joined are not actually melted. The brazing process creates a metallurgical bond between the filler metal, the pad puck, and the backing plate. In other words, the pad and backing plate essentially become one solid piece of metal. Just like welding, the strength of the bond between the parts often exceeds that of the individual parts. Because temperatures remain relatively low during the process, the physical properties of the pad remain unaffected: distortion and warping are nominal, and stress in the joint area is minimized. That means it's almost impossible for the backing plate to separate from the pad puck (delaminate).Other pad types typically attach the pad puck to the backing plate with glue or rivets. The reality is however, that the metallurgical bond on Carbone Lorraine pads is stronger, and resists shear more than other types of attachment. You still can see pad material on the backing plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vw151 Posted March 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 (edited) I know, that sounds strange, but here is the process:When Carbone Lorraine Sintered Pads are formed, the pad puck and backing plate are heated, and a filler metal is drawn into the joint to bond them together via capillary action. This process is different from welding because the temperature is considerably lower, and the base metals being joined are not actually melted. The brazing process creates a metallurgical bond between the filler metal, the pad puck, and the backing plate. In other words, the pad and backing plate essentially become one solid piece of metal. Just like welding, the strength of the bond between the parts often exceeds that of the individual parts. Because temperatures remain relatively low during the process, the physical properties of the pad remain unaffected: distortion and warping are nominal, and stress in the joint area is minimized. That means it's almost impossible for the backing plate to separate from the pad puck (delaminate).Other pad types typically attach the pad puck to the backing plate with glue or rivets. The reality is however, that the metallurgical bond on Carbone Lorraine pads is stronger, and resists shear more than other types of attachment. You still can see pad material on the backing plate.So you are suggesting the pad material cracked along the back plate?I would buy that for a dollar, however it's still a pretty big problem. What were the problems that were found with Jenson and Brian's pads? Did their pads look like this as well? Edited March 30, 2010 by vw151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSVDon Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 That is until you have quality issues with brazing which doesn't allow a complete bond, the shear strength is lowered, and it become much easier for the material to separate from the backing plate.But keep on spewing techno-marvel sales ads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiegler guy Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 since you're here, would you mind doing a little QA? we can do PM's if you prefer.i had just gotten a set of your brake lines as well as a set of SBK5/XBK5 pads (these were ordered through STG who I'm guessing ordered from you? I'm not sure how the whole thing works) and was wondering if the SBK or XBK pads had any such issues that you knew of? I'm a mid pack intermediate rider, which is why many people suggested I go with the SBK's instead of the c44/c55's.Also, are there any differences between an SBK5 and XBK5?thanks for your timeThe name SBK 5 is protected by World Superbike and Carbone Lorraine had to change it to XBK 5. There are minimal differences between the compounds. And there is nothing to worry about, as I said, we never had any issues with the street compounds and many riders (beginner/intermediate level) are using them on the track.Thank you, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vw151 Posted March 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 That is until you have quality issues with brazing which doesn't allow a complete bond, the shear strength is lowered, and it become much easier for the material to separate from the backing plate.But keep on spewing techno-marvel sales ads.be nice guys. I think he's really trying his best to help. He's obviously not gonna get on the forum and jump on the CL pads are junk bandwagon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garysol1 Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 I really do appreciate his explanation and thank him for coming on here. I guess we need to wait till he gets the pads and examines them. Hopefully Matthias will come back on let us know what he finds.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSVDon Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 be nice guys. I think he's really trying his best to help. He's obviously not gonna get on the forum and jump on the CL pads are junk bandwagon.Ok, I'll be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vw151 Posted March 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 (edited) I really do appreciate his explanation and thank him for coming on here. I guess we need to wait till he gets the pads and examines them. Hopefully Matthias will come back on let us know what he finds....Yeah me too. I feel a lot of people have chastised me for putting this information on the web but defective pads or not defective pads I've certainly learned a lot about what COULD cause a failure. Since it's out that there have been a few failures in the past with the same compound I am really curious what was determined in those cases and what one could look for on their backing plate to determine if they might be effected by the same problem or if in fact all of these failures were user error. All kidding aside I'm not saying that isn't possible. I noticed the 2251-C4442/5 marking but I don't know if it is of any real significance. Edited March 30, 2010 by vw151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vw151 Posted March 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Ok, I'll be nice.Thanks, he's probably not used to the regular OR brow beating that goes on around here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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