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Cracker Barrel Shooting


hollywood3586

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Happened within walking distance of my house. Wife went to lunch at the Panera next door on the day of the shooting (without knowing it had happened).

I don't have a CCW permit, but for those who do, don't they instruct you not to get involved in disputes like this, because you can't be sure who the aggressor is?

I mean, this particular instance seems pretty cut and dry. Guy is walking into restaurant with a shotgun. As soon as he shoulders it, you can take him out without worrying about justifying your actions. But as a general rule, CCW instructors tell you not to insert yourself into a situation without knowing all the facts, no?

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That article states the law mostly correct, but fails to acknowledge that the affirmative defense of self-defense may be invoked "in defense of another."

A CCW shooter would have been arrested, but no jury in the world would have convicted them. Even if the shotgun had turned out to be empty.

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Happened within walking distance of my house. Wife went to lunch at the Panera next door on the day of the shooting (without knowing it had happened).

I don't have a CCW permit, but for those who do, don't they instruct you not to get involved in disputes like this, because you can't be sure who the aggressor is?

I mean, this particular instance seems pretty cut and dry. Guy is walking into restaurant with a shotgun. As soon as he shoulders it, you can take him out without worrying about justifying your actions. But as a general rule, CCW instructors tell you not to insert yourself into a situation without knowing all the facts, no?

Yes if you walk around a corner and two guys are rolling around on the ground you really have no idea who is the victim. One could be a off duty or undercover cop you don't know. All you can do is call the authorities give good descriptions and if one flees a license plate number and discription of the vehicle.

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That article states the law mostly correct, but fails to acknowledge that the affirmative defense of self-defense may be invoked "in defense of another."

A CCW shooter would have been arrested, but no jury in the world would have convicted them. Even if the shotgun had turned out to be empty.

Truth

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If someone walks in and acts like there gunna shoot up the place(threats, waving the weapon around, warning shot, etc...)(weapon at the ready or not) and someone kills them then good riddens, that fuck signed his own deathbed.

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That'd be tough/tricky, You may have to be coy about it and shoot him in the back in a situation . I think you'd still get off without prosecution if 20 people were scared for there life even if he hadnt shot anything yet.

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Self defense has 3 elements:

- the defender didn't cause the situation

- there was a reasonable belief that they were at risk of serious bodily harm or death (subjective test. What that person felt. Not what any other person would feel)

- didn't violate a duty to retreat. I.e. had no choice but to shoot.

That last one is where things get tricky.

If the guy is clearly not targeting anyone but his wife and kids, then there is no belief by the third party that he is at risk, and he has the ability to retreat.

To make things "clean," a CCW holder should really yell at the guy and wait until he points the gun at him. Then there is a legit fear of death, and no opportunity to retreat (can't outrun the bullet)

That would be the ideal legally defensible way. But in practice, it would be beyond stupid to wait for the shooter to point the gun at you when you know he's about to pop his wife.

I have to believe a jury would agree, if the prosecutor even bothered to charge him.

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Actually now that I re read that, I believe the genuine belief that another will be shot may fulfill the first prong, but the duty to retreat is still a problem. Technically.

Seriously? Retreat? Your in a damn restaurant, where are.you gunna retreat to?

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Self defense has 3 elements:

- the defender didn't cause the situation

- there was a reasonable belief that they were at risk of serious bodily harm or death (subjective test. What that person felt. Not what any other person would feel)

- didn't violate a duty to retreat. I.e. had no choice but to shoot.

That last one is where things get tricky.

If the guy is clearly not targeting anyone but his wife and kids, then there is no belief by the third party that he is at risk, and he has the ability to retreat.

To make things "clean," a CCW holder should really yell at the guy and wait until he points the gun at him. Then there is a legit fear of death, and no opportunity to retreat (can't outrun the bullet)

That would be the ideal legally defensible way. But in practice, it would be beyond stupid to wait for the shooter to point the gun at you when you know he's about to pop his wife.

I have to believe a jury would agree, if the prosecutor even bothered to charge him.

in my chl class it was explained to us that if you fear for your life or the life of someone else you can fire.

the specific example was if youre in line at walmart and a shooter puts a gun to the head of the clerk, you are allowed to shoot the person becuase it is in defense of somebody else.

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I didnt even read this till now... I figured someone shot him until I read redkowls post....

1st off who the fuck kills their own kids? Hell any kid for that matter? This world is seriously fucked up...

2nd if you kill a man like this you have the possibility of murder charges and being sent to prison, shit like this should be an exemption(public place, lots and lots of witnesses, cameras, etc...) and why are they bringing up the Martin Zimmer case? These 2 are not even closely related, I know they were trying to point out diff state laws, but why a case thats not even close to being related... Again our world is seriously fucked up and so are our laws.

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I didnt even read this till now... I figured someone shot him until I read redkowls post....

1st off who the fuck kills their own kids? Hell any kid for that matter? This world is seriously fucked up...

2nd if you kill a man like this you have the possibility of murder charges and being sent to prison, shit like this should be an exemption(public place, lots and lots of witnesses, cameras, etc...) and why are they bringing up the Martin Zimmer case? These 2 are not even closely related, I know they were trying to point out diff state laws, but why a case thats not even close to being related... Again our world is seriously fucked up and so are our laws.

World isnt full of safe places now is it.

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World isnt full of safe places now is it.

I know, but im still sticking with the choice of not owning a gun, I could change my mind one day :dunno: but for now I prefer not to carry, and if I feel the need to shoot at.the.range ill just call up a buddy :)

this is gunna sound dumb, but unless im put in a situation where I need a gun(hopefully never happens) then ill prob think about owning one.

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in my chl class it was explained to us that if you fear for your life or the life of someone else you can fire.

the specific example was if youre in line at walmart and a shooter puts a gun to the head of the clerk, you are allowed to shoot the person becuase it is in defense of somebody else.

Best explanation I've read...+1

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this is gunna sound dumb, but unless im put in a situation where I need a gun(hopefully never happens) then ill prob think about owning one.

Whenever I leave the house without my Equalizer I get a little shiver and the same thought rolls through my head as I get in the car.

"Hope I don't need it today"

I do carry much more now since Uncle Punk hooked me up with that Vanguard2.

Thanks Punk.

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Today I got the " You dont need your gun we are just going to Walmart" I said "remember the Cracker Barrel thing I told you about the other day"... didn't hear another word.

anyone that steps into walmart unarmed is a brave soul :eek:

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after seeing some of the people who shop at walmart I can believe they sell ammo and guns!

Ironically, there is a Walmart less than a quarter mile from that cracker barrel. Local ordinances prevent them from selling ammo. Obviously that's doing a lot to prevent gun crimes <eye roll>

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