hollywood3586 Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 http://www.woio.com/story/17587011/could-a-ccw-carrier-have-stopped-the-cracker-barrel-shootingI know it's been on the news but they are bringing in a CCW standpoint on this now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Happened within walking distance of my house. Wife went to lunch at the Panera next door on the day of the shooting (without knowing it had happened).I don't have a CCW permit, but for those who do, don't they instruct you not to get involved in disputes like this, because you can't be sure who the aggressor is?I mean, this particular instance seems pretty cut and dry. Guy is walking into restaurant with a shotgun. As soon as he shoulders it, you can take him out without worrying about justifying your actions. But as a general rule, CCW instructors tell you not to insert yourself into a situation without knowing all the facts, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 That article states the law mostly correct, but fails to acknowledge that the affirmative defense of self-defense may be invoked "in defense of another."A CCW shooter would have been arrested, but no jury in the world would have convicted them. Even if the shotgun had turned out to be empty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kawi kid Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Happened within walking distance of my house. Wife went to lunch at the Panera next door on the day of the shooting (without knowing it had happened).I don't have a CCW permit, but for those who do, don't they instruct you not to get involved in disputes like this, because you can't be sure who the aggressor is?I mean, this particular instance seems pretty cut and dry. Guy is walking into restaurant with a shotgun. As soon as he shoulders it, you can take him out without worrying about justifying your actions. But as a general rule, CCW instructors tell you not to insert yourself into a situation without knowing all the facts, no?Yes if you walk around a corner and two guys are rolling around on the ground you really have no idea who is the victim. One could be a off duty or undercover cop you don't know. All you can do is call the authorities give good descriptions and if one flees a license plate number and discription of the vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kawi kid Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 That article states the law mostly correct, but fails to acknowledge that the affirmative defense of self-defense may be invoked "in defense of another."A CCW shooter would have been arrested, but no jury in the world would have convicted them. Even if the shotgun had turned out to be empty.Truth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exarch Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 If someone walks in and acts like there gunna shoot up the place(threats, waving the weapon around, warning shot, etc...)(weapon at the ready or not) and someone kills them then good riddens, that fuck signed his own deathbed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snot Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 If I remember right, it is up to the carrier. But all laws will apply afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gump Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 That'd be tough/tricky, You may have to be coy about it and shoot him in the back in a situation . I think you'd still get off without prosecution if 20 people were scared for there life even if he hadnt shot anything yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Self defense has 3 elements:- the defender didn't cause the situation- there was a reasonable belief that they were at risk of serious bodily harm or death (subjective test. What that person felt. Not what any other person would feel)- didn't violate a duty to retreat. I.e. had no choice but to shoot. That last one is where things get tricky. If the guy is clearly not targeting anyone but his wife and kids, then there is no belief by the third party that he is at risk, and he has the ability to retreat. To make things "clean," a CCW holder should really yell at the guy and wait until he points the gun at him. Then there is a legit fear of death, and no opportunity to retreat (can't outrun the bullet)That would be the ideal legally defensible way. But in practice, it would be beyond stupid to wait for the shooter to point the gun at you when you know he's about to pop his wife. I have to believe a jury would agree, if the prosecutor even bothered to charge him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Actually now that I re read that, I believe the genuine belief that another will be shot may fulfill the first prong, but the duty to retreat is still a problem. Technically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exarch Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Actually now that I re read that, I believe the genuine belief that another will be shot may fulfill the first prong, but the duty to retreat is still a problem. Technically.Seriously? Retreat? Your in a damn restaurant, where are.you gunna retreat to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Butters Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Self defense has 3 elements:- the defender didn't cause the situation- there was a reasonable belief that they were at risk of serious bodily harm or death (subjective test. What that person felt. Not what any other person would feel)- didn't violate a duty to retreat. I.e. had no choice but to shoot. That last one is where things get tricky. If the guy is clearly not targeting anyone but his wife and kids, then there is no belief by the third party that he is at risk, and he has the ability to retreat. To make things "clean," a CCW holder should really yell at the guy and wait until he points the gun at him. Then there is a legit fear of death, and no opportunity to retreat (can't outrun the bullet)That would be the ideal legally defensible way. But in practice, it would be beyond stupid to wait for the shooter to point the gun at you when you know he's about to pop his wife. I have to believe a jury would agree, if the prosecutor even bothered to charge him.in my chl class it was explained to us that if you fear for your life or the life of someone else you can fire.the specific example was if youre in line at walmart and a shooter puts a gun to the head of the clerk, you are allowed to shoot the person becuase it is in defense of somebody else. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exarch Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 I didnt even read this till now... I figured someone shot him until I read redkowls post....1st off who the fuck kills their own kids? Hell any kid for that matter? This world is seriously fucked up...2nd if you kill a man like this you have the possibility of murder charges and being sent to prison, shit like this should be an exemption(public place, lots and lots of witnesses, cameras, etc...) and why are they bringing up the Martin Zimmer case? These 2 are not even closely related, I know they were trying to point out diff state laws, but why a case thats not even close to being related... Again our world is seriously fucked up and so are our laws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4DAIVI PAI2K5 Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 I didnt even read this till now... I figured someone shot him until I read redkowls post....1st off who the fuck kills their own kids? Hell any kid for that matter? This world is seriously fucked up...2nd if you kill a man like this you have the possibility of murder charges and being sent to prison, shit like this should be an exemption(public place, lots and lots of witnesses, cameras, etc...) and why are they bringing up the Martin Zimmer case? These 2 are not even closely related, I know they were trying to point out diff state laws, but why a case thats not even close to being related... Again our world is seriously fucked up and so are our laws.World isnt full of safe places now is it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exarch Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 World isnt full of safe places now is it.I know, but im still sticking with the choice of not owning a gun, I could change my mind one day but for now I prefer not to carry, and if I feel the need to shoot at.the.range ill just call up a buddy this is gunna sound dumb, but unless im put in a situation where I need a gun(hopefully never happens) then ill prob think about owning one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gump Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 in my chl class it was explained to us that if you fear for your life or the life of someone else you can fire.the specific example was if youre in line at walmart and a shooter puts a gun to the head of the clerk, you are allowed to shoot the person becuase it is in defense of somebody else.Best explanation I've read...+1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagr Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 this is gunna sound dumb, but unless im put in a situation where I need a gun(hopefully never happens) then ill prob think about owning one.Whenever I leave the house without my Equalizer I get a little shiver and the same thought rolls through my head as I get in the car. "Hope I don't need it today"I do carry much more now since Uncle Punk hooked me up with that Vanguard2. Thanks Punk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kawi kid Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 I left the house tonight for a quick bite to eat without mine and I hade the exact same thought ... Hope this isn't the day I need that thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4DAIVI PAI2K5 Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 Today I got the " You dont need your gun we are just going to Walmart" I said "remember the Cracker Barrel thing I told you about the other day"... didn't hear another word. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad324 Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 Today I got the " You dont need your gun we are just going to Walmart" I said "remember the Cracker Barrel thing I told you about the other day"... didn't hear another word.anyone that steps into walmart unarmed is a brave soul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagr Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 If you DO step in to a Walmart you are mentally unarmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad324 Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 (edited) If you DO step in to a Walmart you are mentally unarmed.such intelligence from a man i watch his brain pour out his nose! Edited April 20, 2012 by Bad324 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snot Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 after seeing some of the people who shop at walmart I can believe they sell ammo and guns! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 Seriously? Retreat? Your in a damn restaurant, where are.you gunna retreat to?Leave the restaurant. A bunch of people did so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 after seeing some of the people who shop at walmart I can believe they sell ammo and guns!Ironically, there is a Walmart less than a quarter mile from that cracker barrel. Local ordinances prevent them from selling ammo. Obviously that's doing a lot to prevent gun crimes <eye roll> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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