Tipping in

[donkason]

After yesterday at Mid-O it looks like my next track day will be in intermediate One of the things the instructor was really pushing was a quick tip in using counter steering to get me to the next level. I do a bit of a gentle drift into the apex now and he would hold out until the last second to quickly dive in. This looks like it cut his corner time down and gave him a quick exit. I worked on it for the last 2 sessions and had a hard time flicking the bike. It seemed hard to push the inside bar with that much force and take care of all the braking, body positioning, etc. I did it a few times the corner felt better.

Does anybody have any feedback on how to flick the bike? We did some paddock work and I will continue to do that on my street for practice. Any info or drills would be appreciated.

[Revelstoker]

push inside bar or pull outside bar will do the same thing.

Also interested to hear comments.

[jbot]

it's like flicking the bean, but using your fist.

honestly, it comes after you learn to trust your tires. maybe it seems like you're upsetting the bike, but if you do it smoothly, it's no different than turning in like you do now. work on doing it smooth first, then up the pace of bean flicking.

[natedogg624]

You're gonna have to muscle it, you have the bike's gyrosopic effect working against making the bike do what you want it to do.

Also helps to widen the clips on for more leverage.

[blue03636]

The bars will need to be your main focus on turning the bike. Trust it, you can really tip it in quick. The lazy turn in is really hard to get over, I still find myself doing it from time to time.

If the bike is fighting you too much you can always raise the rear of the bike to get it to turn quicker, gsxr's don't like the front to be lowered.

[TRMN8TR]

The bars will need to be your main focus on turning the bitch. Trust it, you can really tip it in quick. (just the tip though?) The lazy turn in is really hard to get over, I still find myself doing it from time to time.

If the bitch is fighting you too much you can always raise the rear of the bitch to get it to turn quicker, bitches don't like the front to be lowered.

I found myself thinking this whole conversation sounds really perverted. So I replaced the word "bike" with "bitch" and yup, it works out wonderfully!

[blue03636]

You didn't want to go with "your mom".

[TRMN8TR]

That would work as well, but is a bit overplayed.

[Habi]

After yesterday at Mid-O it looks like my next track day will be in intermediate

How many riders were in novice Tuesday? How many novice have you done? We had 26 riders on Monday and I found it hard to ever get into a rhythm since we would constantly run into slower riders. Makes me weary of doing novice again but I know that I still have a ton to learn. Just curious if this was abnormal or I am looking at it wrong.

[turnone]

This topic is big hurdle for many.

You will be suprised at just how hard you can crank on the average sportbike bars.

Fast riders aren't afraid to push/pull with a large amount of force. I have never seen anyone crash from yanking too hard. It's a mental hurdle.

As far as body position and braking, you should have that done mostly ahead of time. Go out there and just work on the fast turn in.

You will have to build confidence in your ability to tip the bike in quickly, thus allowing you to go faster and wait longer before turning.

After a day of riding the big bikes fast, the most sore spot on my entire body is my palms, simply from pushing so hard on the bars.

Little bikes (>100cc's) seem to turn in without much force.

Chris

Biggie Smalls

OMRL #72

[rusty]

How many riders were in novice Tuesday? How many novice have you done? We had 26 riders on Monday and I found it hard to ever get into a rhythm since we would constantly run into slower riders. Makes me weary of doing novice again but I know that I still have a ton to learn. Just curious if this was abnormal or I am looking at it wrong.

Tuesday was only 12riders in novice.all 3levels have very light attendance.

[blue03636]

To add to what turnone said, the centrifugal force that is going on you physically can't turn the bike so fast that you crash.

[donkason]

How many riders were in novice Tuesday? How many novice have you done? We had 26 riders on Monday and I found it hard to ever get into a rhythm since we would constantly run into slower riders. Makes me weary of doing novice again but I know that I still have a ton to learn. Just curious if this was abnormal or I am looking at it wrong.

As far as absolute speed I could have ridden I. There were guys in I yesterday that kept up with on my Busa in June with 30 riders, and I am faster on my 750. For me it was about working on my fundamentals and markers and having a coach give me the nod as I don't feel it's my call at this level. I feel your frustration on running into slower riders and getting all set up for a quick turn and having to check up to not run somebody over, but that's part of the game. I just make the best of it and focus on other things and pick apart their mistakes to set up a pass, but we can't pass yet. Hell we picked markers in 2nd gear on a wet lap. It makes the pass out of the keyhole sweeter when you've been couped up half a lap though:D

The last two sessions the coach sent me out alone and even though I was lapping people I still had a lot to work on. With the speed came a need for more breaking, which changed braking points and how quickly I had to set up. It's like hitting a moving target when you're learning. This came at the sacrafice of some smoothness. Then I started playing with trail braking with my engine then a bit with my front brakes and it got smoother.

So to answer your question you aren't looking at it wrong. There is always something to learn but nothing sucks more than getting jammed up. I'd say do another N but go on Tuesday so you have less traffic and you get more 1 on 1 with a coach. If it was your first track day ever you'd have to be pretty studly to be ready for I. Coaches are there to answer your questions and they aren't shy. Ask then if you look ready for I and they'll tell you.

I am shimmed 5mm in the rear already. I might add another 2mm and see how it feels.

It's nice to hear others have been challenged with this too. I need to quit being a pussy. When I'm in a corner I have to hold it down like a beast sometimes so I just need to transfer that to the tip in. It seems like it would be easier to pull the outside bar as I get my inside arm bent and loaded at a funny angle to push well. I'll do some intersection turns in the country and practice snapping it into the corner.

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[TSB67]

After yesterday at Mid-O it looks like my next track day will be in intermediate One of the things the instructor was really pushing was a quick tip in using counter steering to get me to the next level. I do a bit of a gentle drift into the apex now and he would hold out until the last second to quickly dive in. This looks like it cut his corner time down and gave him a quick exit. I worked on it for the last 2 sessions and had a hard time flicking the bike. It seemed hard to push the inside bar with that much force and take care of all the braking, body positioning, etc. I did it a few times the corner felt better.

Does anybody have any feedback on how to flick the bike? We did some paddock work and I will continue to do that on my street for practice. Any info or drills would be appreciated.

I'm no pro but at some point in my education some instructor taught a concept of a "power cross" or something, which is basically pushing with your outside leg while pushing on the inside bar, giving you something to load against.

You can debate the physics of it but mental or not, it works. I'm bowing out of this conversation right now before some fast idiot comes in and says you need to weight the inside peg to make the bike lean.

[redkow97]

Good general advice is to get your ass moved off the bike while still on the gas (move while the bike is most stable).

Then you're sort of "throwing" your upper body into the turn, but your legs/butt are already ready.

But ultimately it comes down to counter-steering, and to a lesser extent, bike setup. And practice.

[blue03636]

Weighting a peg is useless, you will snap the peg off before it really does any good. I will use my knee in the tank but the bars are where you really get things done.

[serpentracer]

some tires will fight you on the tip in also. Race tires make the bike fall over on it's own. at least all the sets I've had do. much more so than a street tire.

pirelli diablo III was the worst tire for fighting the turn in I've ever rode on. bridgestones feel amazing to me. I love when I can just lean off the bike and it falls over without me having to do much.

your setup on the suspension is critical on a GSXR I hear. you need it set up just right suposedly. I wouldn't know I don't own one.

my R6 has always turned like it was on rails.

and if you were riding that busa no wonder. that's not exatctly known for it's cornering abilities.

[CephasGT]

Learning how to countersteer quickly is something you don't have to be at the track to do. You can do a slalom drill in a big empty parking lot at 25 mph to really get a feel for it, and it'll only take an hour, tops. I used to do that all the time when my bike was still in street trim. Find a nice big open space and start swerving back and forth, like you see the Moto2 guys doing to scrub their tires. If you're using countersteering to do it (and you almost definitely will be), you'll be able to swerve very quickly and aggressively. Then all you have to do is transfer that feel to your corner entry on the track.

[Helmutt]

Donk, are your running stock profile tires? Changing up the rear tire to a 180/60 from the stock sized 180/55 would help with turn in too. I went from a 50 to a 55 on mine and it does make a difference with turn in. Seemed to flick quicker ( although my hyper is far from flickable:D )

Just a suggestion if you haven't played with tire profiles to help the tipping.

Sounds like you're getting comfy with trackwork, I'm turnin' green over here! Makes me want to get some trackdays in asap

[Moto-Brian]

Be careful about raising the rear on the GSXR. The GSXR family of newer gen bike chassis need the fronts raised and rears lower. This creates trail which is MUCH needed on that chassis. You really need to get extenders to get it right...

Also, an instructor telling you that you need to flick in quicker to get to "I" group is a bit off base. There are TONS more to be working on and thinking about before quicker turn in.

Think about these topics and work on these before worrying about the quicker turn in.

-Body position. If you flick the bike faster and have poor body position, it isn't going to work well together. You can push and pull until your heart's delight, but if the body is screwed up, it is all for nothing.

-Braking up and down and setting up for a turn - Corner entry. Sure, flicking it in faster will be a part of the corner entry, but the corner has three parts. Entry, mid corner and drive out. What kind of turn is it? How do you approach it? Basic understanding of corner entry along with body position is more important than flicking it fast...

-Line choice and transition from entry to exit of a turn. One thing I will say is that the "I" lessons they teach are somewhat weird especially when the lead guy is taking lines that I firmly feel are not correct at Mid-O. I really disagree with the poor line choices being taught and while you were in Novice, "I" instructor I am referring to is teaching poor technique and poor implementation of lines. You need to understand what the edges of the track are. Three lines. Outside, middle and inside. They should teach the three line drill simply because it allows you to understand the width of the track. Once understanding that, there is an optimal race line. Take the word "race" out and understand it to be more of the "most efficient" or "most effective" line around the track. We arent expecting everyone to be a racer and some of the instructors get all huffy over this, but the race line is the line that needs to be taught because it is the most efficient.

Efficient means less work, more ability to be relaxed and focus vs fighting and working harder. Sure, lower lap times will be a result, but the idea is to be using as little energy as possible to have a reserve is shit hits the fan.

-Mid-Corner work. You need to understand what to do mid turn. It is something not many think about. They look at it as braking into a turn, turn in and exit. Well, mid turn is important. Take the Key Hole. Mid turn at the Key Hole offers a lot of things to be working on. Line change during mid turn if need be, working the throttle and understanding what neutral throttle means, understand what moving on the bike does mid turn, what we need to do mid turn to lead to the next important step - drive.

-Drive. How to exit a turn. Putting the elements above together leads to drive on exit. This is one of the most important things. How does that guy on a 600 blast past a 1000 before the kink on the back straight? Drive. How does one get a great drive? All those other elements.

Again, I understand quicker turn in is important, but there are other things that rank higher than that. However, maybe you are doing all those things well and that is the only element missing. I don't really know.

but, flow, smooth, consistent, etc are all things that an "I" rider battles against. Several incidents that occur in "I" group are a result of these elements not being worked on or focused on.

There is much more, but these to me are the keys.

[motociclista]

Tuesday was only 12riders in novice.all 3levels have very light attendance.

Dang, wish I'd gone Tuesday instead of Monday. I almost always go on a Tuesday when there are back-to-back days. This time I didn't.

I'm going back to my old policy.

[donkason]

Be careful about raising the rear on the GSXR. The GSXR family of newer gen bike chassis need the fronts raised and rears lower. This creates trail which is MUCH needed on that chassis. You really need to get extenders to get it right...

Also, an instructor telling you that you need to flick in quicker to get to "I" group is a bit off base. There are TONS more to be working on and thinking about before quicker turn in.

Think about these topics and work on these before worrying about the quicker turn in.

-Body position. If you flick the bike faster and have poor body position, it isn't going to work well together. You can push and pull until your heart's delight, but if the body is screwed up, it is all for nothing.

-Braking up and down and setting up for a turn - Corner entry. Sure, flicking it in faster will be a part of the corner entry, but the corner has three parts. Entry, mid corner and drive out. What kind of turn is it? How do you approach it? Basic understanding of corner entry along with body position is more important than flicking it fast...

-Line choice and transition from entry to exit of a turn. One thing I will say is that the "I" lessons they teach are somewhat weird especially when the lead guy is taking lines that I firmly feel are not correct at Mid-O. I really disagree with the poor line choices being taught and while you were in Novice, "I" instructor I am referring to is teaching poor technique and poor implementation of lines. You need to understand what the edges of the track are. Three lines. Outside, middle and inside. They should teach the three line drill simply because it allows you to understand the width of the track. Once understanding that, there is an optimal race line. Take the word "race" out and understand it to be more of the "most efficient" or "most effective" line around the track. We arent expecting everyone to be a racer and some of the instructors get all huffy over this, but the race line is the line that needs to be taught because it is the most efficient.

Efficient means less work, more ability to be relaxed and focus vs fighting and working harder. Sure, lower lap times will be a result, but the idea is to be using as little energy as possible to have a reserve is shit hits the fan.

-Mid-Corner work. You need to understand what to do mid turn. It is something not many think about. They look at it as braking into a turn, turn in and exit. Well, mid turn is important. Take the Key Hole. Mid turn at the Key Hole offers a lot of things to be working on. Line change during mid turn if need be, working the throttle and understanding what neutral throttle means, understand what moving on the bike does mid turn, what we need to do mid turn to lead to the next important step - drive.

-Drive. How to exit a turn. Putting the elements above together leads to drive on exit. This is one of the most important things. How does that guy on a 600 blast past a 1000 before the kink on the back straight? Drive. How does one get a great drive? All those other elements.

Again, I understand quicker turn in is important, but there are other things that rank higher than that. However, maybe you are doing all those things well and that is the only element missing. I don't really know.

but, flow, smooth, consistent, etc are all things that an "I" rider battles against. Several incidents that occur in "I" group are a result of these elements not being worked on or focused on.

There is much more, but these to me are the keys.

I will be doing the parking lot drill ASAP! I want to get this down a bit before I hit the track as it may be easier to do not braking from 140mph off the kink.

I have a 190/55 on my Busa and it came on my 750. The crown makes a big difference vs the 190/50 profile. I have also raised my front end by dropping the forks into the tree but I don't have spacers yet.

As for what I need to work on, well a bit of everything. I worked HARD on body positioning and finally started getting it by putting my ass against my tail section to create room to move off the bike. This let me lean the bike less, turn as hard, and kept weight off my hands as I was balancing on my legs. It was like a switch flipped.

We also worked and talked alot about lines and he pointed out fantastic markers for the keyhole and the carousel. He lectured on the quick tip in to run the most efficient line quickly. I was the guy on a 750 blowing past litre bikes and one if the KTM'S coming out of the keyhole. A few tried to drag race but the HP didn't make up for corner speed. I think I did the basics a well and now I need to get consistent and I can do that while running at a quicker pace.

He pretty much touched on everything you discussed except 3 lines through a turn. He's coached me on two of my track days and I have gotten much faster/smoother with him and one other coach. Maybe you should dole out a few lessons next track day! That's a lot of good stuff you went over.

All this talk makes me want to have Mid-O flip lights on and let me run tonight! So much to learn and only 1-2 days a month

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[Tpoppa]

Trust the soul patch

http://www.ohioriders.net/showthread.php?p=884955#post884955

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWH_QiXw5n4&feature=related

[QuikAccord]

Thanks for that helpful video.

[bchristy07]

Trust the soul patch

http://www.ohioriders.net/showthread.php?p=884955#post884955

Bike Cornering Bible - YouTube

good vid.. the talk about the suspension working in that 'sweet spot' reminds me even more on why I need to get my fork oil changed after 21k miles and the rear shock taken care of