Open carry lawsuit out of Dayton.

[jblosser]

Until open carry becomes as commonplace as wearing blue jeans, some portion of "the public" is going to be startled when they see someone who isn't dressed as a policeman carrying a gun.

Some will be startled enough to call 911 and report a MWAG.

Is it the 911 operator's job to determine if the call warrants dispatching an officer? Dunno, I don't work in law enforcement. I, personally, would rather a trained LEO investigate and determine what, if anything, needs to be done. Better safe than sorry. 5 minutes out of his/her shift to go somewhere doesn't seem unreasonable to me - better than someone getting hurt/killed because the MWAG actually was intent on doing harm.

If someone decides that answering a (seemingly) innocuous request from a LEO for a name is not infringing upon their rights, what's the problem? Each of us can decide whether or not we want to answer ("comply", if you will).

I'm not allowed to carry in any manner into a post office. Is that not an infringement of my 2nd amendment rights?

I have the right to go to the Statehouse lawn and bitch publicly about anything I want to - I choose not to. Have I set back the cause of Free Speech for everyone else by choosing to keep silent?

I'm not going to fault anyone for talking to a police officer, nor will I fault them for choosing to not answer any questions. It's the individual's decision to make, not mine to make (or bully toward my way of thinking) for them. Answer/comply, refuse to answer/not comply - don't care.

semi-tangent: As to the earlier post in this thread about the 3" knife - remember that there is NO length of knife that you're allowed to carry concealed, as a weapon, in Ohio. Period. You're carrying "a tool", not "a weapon". As I've said before, cut some boxes with it and leave the tape residue on it as "proof" that it's a "tool".

[Tigerpaw]

I go to work...and the buffoonery runs rampant in here.

[granda080]

It seems both sides of this are putting the cart in front of the horse. Doesn't this really come down to what was the 911 caller saying? Then did that give the officer enough of a cause to assume a crime was about to happen?

Until the 911 call gets released this is just a game of rhetoric. IMO.

If the person calling and said there is a guy here with a gun and that was it, there doesn't seem to be enough reason for the police to ask the MWAG anything.

If the person calling said there is a man with a gun who has been here twenty minutes and looks like he is casing the joint. That may be enough for the police to assume that a crime was about to happen.

All are just...

[20thGix]

It seems both sides of this are putting the cart in front of the horse. Doesn't this really come down to what was the 911 caller saying? Then did that give the officer enough of a cause to assume a crime was about to happen?

Until the 911 call gets released this is just a game of rhetoric. IMO.

If the person calling and said there is a guy here with a gun and that was it, there doesn't seem to be enough reason for the police to ask the MWAG anything.

If the person calling said there is a man with a gun who has been here twenty minutes and looks like he is casing the joint. That may be enough for the police to assume that a crime was about to happen.

All are just...

Whats even better is that i didnt see anywhere in the link provided in the OP where anyone even called 911.

Quote from link:"Police reports show a citizen at the Speedway at 3201 Valley Pike was concerned that a man had a gun in the open and told Riverside police Sgt. Harold Jones, who motioned to Call to come outside."

[Tigerpaw]

My point is that its not the dispatcher job to dertemine if a CRIME has been committed. Their job is to determine what level of priority each call has and DISPATCH the unit to said call. Being a murder in progress to the husband won't do the dishes. If a dispatcher takes a call they are not going to tell the caller their husband not doing the dishes isn't against the law and no one is coming out. It the OFFICERS job to detrmine that.

This.

Some places have trained police as dispatchers, some have a kid making $15/hr. Either way, the job is to relay/prioritize the info, not make legal decisions.

Since OC is NOT THAT COMMON, this would seem like a good one to relay to officers.

[twowheelsnake]

It seems both sides of this are putting the cart in front of the horse. Doesn't this really come down to what was the 911 caller saying? Then did that give the officer enough of a cause to assume a crime was about to happen?

Until the 911 call gets released this is just a game of rhetoric. IMO.

If the person calling and said there is a guy here with a gun and that was it, there doesn't seem to be enough reason for the police to ask the MWAG anything.

If the person calling said there is a man with a gun who has been here twenty minutes and looks like he is casing the joint. That may be enough for the police to assume that a crime was about to happen.

All are just...

Usually people with a visible, holstered weapon are not "casing the joint" for criminal purposes. Kinda ruins the element of surprise.

[Anden]

I'm outa rep for this thread.

[granda080]

Usually people with a visible, holstered weapon are not "casing the joint" for criminal purposes. Kinda ruins the element of surprise.

While that is a fair assumption, we are all making assumptions on this persons behavior, the clerk, and the officer. Just because something is unlikely in your mind, or mine, does not mean it is unlikely in the mind of the clerk or the officer.

How long was this person in the store? Was it long enough to make the clerk nervious, or feel that he wasn't just there to buy a drink? Again, without the call it's speculation as to why the officer was requested.

[twowheelsnake]

While that is a fair assumption, we are all making assumptions on this persons behavior, the clerk, and the officer. Just because something is unlikely in your mind, or mine, does not mean it is unlikely in the mind of the clerk or the officer.

How long was this person in the store? Was it long enough to make the clerk nervious, or feel that he wasn't just there to buy a drink? Again, without the call it's speculation as to why the officer was requested.

Doesn't matter how long he was there. A person with criminal intent will walk into the store with weapon up and ready OR remove it from a concealed area. And when the cops show up a person with criminal intent will either run like hell, bitch up and drop the weapon or point it at the cop. Was he being douchey? Yes. Was he breaking the law? No. Was the cops infringing on his rights? Yes. Otherwise they wouldn't have dropped the charges.

[r1crusher]

So the general conception is: a holstered gun = criminal.

Yeah, because thugs always go around with their gats holstered.

Usually people with a visible, holstered weapon are not "casing the joint" for criminal purposes. Kinda ruins the element of surprise.

I kind of pointed this out a looooooooooooong time ago.

Just sayin'

PARKS IS A TOOL!!!

Carry on.

[Pokey]

Just because OC is legal in Ohio, doesn't mean the public "or police" is ever going to fully accept open carry, that is reality. Dragging this shit all over the internet and news is much more bad publicity for gun owners than it is to police. I feel the police had every right to question this guy on how he arrived at the gas station while OC and ask for his id or information, had he not had the CHL his ass would be in big trouble. I am trying to see this from both sides, both being the police and the supposedly harassed gun owner. Seems they both could have and should have handled the situation differently, but that apparently did not happen "as far as we know". How is this eroding away our rights, what ever happened to working with police and not against them? And the dollar amount that this asshat is asking for "600,000 for emotional trauma alone" is laughable at best. The guy chose to open carry vs concealed in a type of establishment that is known for getting robbed at gunpoint, yes the 911 caller overreacted and was obviously ignorant. This could have been a police officer for all they knew, and I wonder if it had been would he had complied by showing his ID? Sorry but this is all making a mountain out of a mole hill for me, and unless you are in law enforcement, open carry is just asking for negative attention. Women can walk around topless in Ohio and it is perfectly legal, but we know that is never going to be accepted and will cause nothing but accidents in pants and on the streets. There are lots of laws where we are legal to do something, but are we still immune from police not being able to question us? I think unless you have walked in an officers shoes, it is awfully easy for the rest of us to cast stones. Yes I have friends in law enforcement, yes I am a bit touchy about the bashing of police. Here are some really dumb laws in Ohio......enjoy.

http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/ohio

[4DAIVI PAI2K5]

I kind of pointed this out a looooooooooooong time ago.

Just sayin'

PARKS IS A TOOL!!!

Carry on.

You want to touch my tool

[conn-e-rot]

It is legal so it doesn't matter if Barney Fife likes it or not his job is to enforce and uphold the laws not pick and choose which ones he likes. At the very least the police chief should lose his job because he has obviously not been doing his job.

[baggyp]

As a former law enforcement officer and current concealed carry holder I see this from both sides. I worked in the low income housing unit so I understand the area. In our area it was definitely frowned upon to open carry. There is no doubt he would be stopped and questioned. Now with that said, we knew the law. We also had a mind set of just because of the area we were in, you respected everyone until disrespected. Even then you showed respect, which went a long way.

I hate that everyone gets as long as they want to take apart a situation and decision that an officer has seconds to make. Not every call made in real life is going to be the correct one. And some of this goes to how the department has its policies set, and training.

I think if you pose the question, can you open carry in Ohio? Yes.

Can you expect to get the same response out of all police agencies? No.

Does this guy deserve $3.6m? That's for a Judge and jury of his peers to decide.

It seems as if the current amount of information is a little lacking to make either party wrong or right, but I lean more toward the rights of the person. That's what makes America what it is.

Edited May 14, 2013 by baggyp

[conn-e-rot]

As a former law enforcement officer and current concealed carry holder I see this from both sides. I worked in the low income housing unit so I understand the area. In our area it was definitely frowned upon to open carry. There is no doubt he would be stopped and questioned. Now with that said, we knew the law. We also had a mind set of just because of the area we were in, you respected everyone until disrespected. Even then you showed respect, which went a long way.

I hate that everyone gets as long as they want to take apart a situation and decision that an officer has seconds to make. Not every call made in real life is going to be the correct one. And some of this goes to how the department has its policies set, and training.

I think if you pose the question, can you open carry in Ohio? Yes.

Can you expect to get the same response out of all police agencies? No.

Does this guy deserve $3.6m? That's for a Judge and jury of his peers to decide.

It seems as if the current amount of information is a little lacking to make either party wrong or right, but I lean more toward the rights of the person. That's what makes America what it is.

Well said

[BadTrainDriver]

Pokey, how did his CHL save his ass???

I'm very surprised you feel this way about this situation.

I never imagined you to be the "lay down submissive virgin pussy" type, with all due respect and shit.

[Pokey]

Pokey, how did his CHL save his ass???

I'm very surprised you feel this way about this situation.

I never imagined you to be the "lay down submissive virgin pussy" type, with all due respect and shit.

I have no bug up my ass about police like many here seem to, of course I have never been in a situation to make me feel otherwise. How am I being a pussy by trying to work with police "I have nothing to hide", and we for sure do not know everything about how this all went down. Just because the charges were dropped, doesn't necessarily mean the OC guy was right in how he handled this, the same also goes for the police. When respect is shown it is usually shown back, I just see this scenario as not being a big deal as far as complying with the officers request. Carrying a firearm is a huge responsibility, especially when it is out in the open for everyone to see.

And the CHL saved his ass from a felony due to carrying a locked and loaded pistol in a motor vehicle, which I believe was one of the main reasons as to why they wanted to see his ID and to know how he arrived at the gas station.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Pokey

[snot]

I have no bug up my ass about police like many here seem to, of course I have never been in a situation to make me feel otherwise. How am I being a pussy by trying to work with police "I have nothing to hide", and we for sure do not know everything about how this all went down. Just because the charges were dropped, doesn't necessarily mean the OC guy was right in how he handled this, the same also goes for the police. When respect is shown it is usually shown back, I just see this scenario as not being a big deal as far as complying with the officers request. Carrying a firearm is a huge responsibility, especially when it is out in the open for everyone to see.

^^this is what my thoughts were as well. I believe there is a time and place, if you dont agree with what an officer is doing you can file a complaint. I just dont see the point in giving them a hard time when they can detain you (right or wrong they still can). you may win in the end but you could cause more un needed grief to yourself.

again this is my .02. I will protect my rights but i will do it the right way by filing a complaint. i will not give the courts any reason to discredit me due to my actions.

[Steve Butters]

I have no bug up my ass about police like many here seem to, of course I have never been in a situation to make me feel otherwise. How am I being a pussy by trying to work with police "I have nothing to hide", and we for sure do not know everything about how this all went down. Just because the charges were dropped, doesn't necessarily mean the OC guy was right in how he handled this, the same also goes for the police. When respect is shown it is usually shown back, I just see this scenario as not being a big deal as far as complying with the officers request. Carrying a firearm is a huge responsibility, especially when it is out in the open for everyone to see.

And the CHL saved his ass from a felony due to carrying a locked and loaded pistol in a motor vehicle, which I believe was one of the main reasons as to why they wanted to see his ID and to know how he arrived at the gas station.

There's nothing wrong with complying with the police.... I would do the same.

The issue is that he refused to show his ID, and the police then forced him to comply. That is where his rights were violated.

People here saying he deserved what he got because he refused to cooperate are the issue. He was within his rights to refuse the request for ID, just as much as you're in the right to cooperate with them.

You choosing to cooperate and him choosing not to, you're both within your right.... But FORCING him to cooperate or illegally searching and detaining him is wrong.

Would I have cooperated? Depends on the cops demeanor, showing respect earns respect.

Do I fault him for not? Hell no.

Do I believe the cops were in the wrong? Definitely.

Cooperating doesn't make you a "pussy"... But telling other people who feel differently that they deserve to have their rights violated because they stand up for themselves is what the issue is.

If the cop came up and spoke to me like I was a criminal, I would definitely deny his request if it violated my rights. If he approached me like a law abiding citizen, I would cooperate and would also explain the law to educate him.... It all depends on the circumstances... Nobody is perfect

It blows my mind that people can't understand why this is a rights violation though.... He didn't want to show ID and the cop had no legal reason to demand it. Period, end of story. It's not hard to understand.

[BadTrainDriver]

I'll agree we don't know about how it all truly went down...the rest, I don't agree with, Pokey.

The CHL didn't save him from shit.

There are ways to legally transport a pistol in a vehicle without a CHL, and it's completely legal to holster up once outside the vehicle.

The thing that pisses me off(and should piss you off too), It's not about cooperation, it's not about having a bug up your ass about police, it's about your rights...and that's it.

You have the legal right to openly carry a firearm, same as you have the legal right to walk down the street. Yes, you have a responsibility when you carry a gun...to be responsible with it, and to follow the law. Same as walking...you don't walk across I270...you've got to be responsible.

We don't live in China, or North Korea.

The police do not have the authority to detain you unless they have a valid reason.

Having a pistol on your hip, that you're carrying responsibly, does not validate a reason. I don't give a fuck who it upsets, pisses off, or scares.

If you can't agree with that, please give all your guns and ammo to the nearest police station, turn in your man card, stop posting on OR, and get the fuck out of the country...because you're part of the problem.

Cliff Notes:

America is not a "Police State".

Citizens have rights.

If it doesn't piss you off when those rights are blatantly and unlawfully taken away, please leave the country.

North Korea would love to have you in their army.

Edited May 14, 2013 by BadTrainDriver

[Pokey]

I'll agree we don't know about how it all truly went down...the rest, I don't agree with, Pokey.

The CHL didn't save him from shit.

There are ways to legally transport a pistol in a vehicle without a CHL, and it's completely legal to holster up once outside the vehicle.

The thing that pisses me off(and should piss you off too), It's not about cooperation, it's not about having a bug up your ass about police, it's about your rights...and that's it.

You have the legal right to openly carry a firearm, same as you have the legal right to walk down the street. Yes, you have a responsibility when you carry a gun...to be responsible with it, and to follow the law. Same as walking...you don't walk across I270...you've got to be responsible.

We don't live in China, or North Korea.

The police do not have the authority to detain you unless they have a valid reason.

Having a pistol on your hip, that you're carrying responsibly, does not validate a reason. I don't give a fuck who it upsets, pisses off, or scares.

If you can't agree with that, please give all your guns and ammo to the nearest police station, turn in your man card, stop posting on OR, and get the fuck out of the country...because you're part of the problem.

Cliff Notes:

America is not a "Police State".

Citizens have rights.

If it doesn't piss you off when those rights are blatantly and unlawfully taken away, please leave the country.

North Korea would love to have you in their army.

We still do not know the entire story and situation at hand, once again we as people are jumping to conclusions and making assumptions. And how do we know that the police did not have a vaild reason for detaining him, were any of us there? And comparing my feelings and opinions toward this situation, as to say....... "If you can't agree with that, please give all your guns and ammo to the nearest police station, turn in your man card, stop posting on OR, and get the fuck out of the country...because you're part of the problem". Holy shit that is hard to believe you even said that to me, pretty low blow Matt. You gotta pick your battles, and when it comes to much of the public about open carry and firearms in general, I see no reason to throw the "hey public.....look at my right to carry openly here in Ohio, if you or police don't like it, you can kiss my rosy ass." What this guy did "legal or not" is what makes an already sensitive topic and situation even worse for gun owners. There are major pro gun states that don't even allow open carry for just this EXACT reason, are they pussies, communists, and in violation of all our 2nd Amendment rights? How about many places of business here in Ohio that does not allow firearms in their establishments, how can they legally get away with that, are they wrong and bad Americans for doing that? The guy made a judgement call whether it was the right choice or the wrong choice, the rest of us would have to do the same in that situation. Lets worry more about the police state actions that were implemented in Boston, lets worry more about the insane gun bans that this administration wants in place. Just because anyone including the mentally ill or unstable person may have the right by law to open carry in Ohio "this is just an example" and law enforcement has no idea who this person is or whether they are are in fact legally permitted to do so, is why I feel that open carry is nothing but a clusterfuck waiting to happen. Me being judged harshly just because I would be willing to show my ID to an officer who may find me suspicious for whatever reason, is my choice to do so. I never talked harshly toward anyone that would choose to take the road that Mr. Call took, but every action causes a reaction whether legal or not. I will save my rights for a much worse scenario than what this was, I will choose my battles as to what I see is more fit. So don't judge my character or my pride as being an American over something as fucking stupid as this.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!!

[Tigerpaw]

If you can't agree with that, please give all your guns and ammo to the nearest police station, turn in your man card, stop posting on OR, and get the fuck out of the country...because you're part of the problem.

Settle down!

This country is about embracing our differences. We should be able to have a respectful conversation here, or anywhere.

[Tigerpaw]

Just because OC is legal in Ohio, doesn't mean the public "or police" is ever going to fully accept open carry, that is reality. Dragging this shit all over the internet and news is much more bad publicity for gun owners than it is to police. I feel the police had every right to question this guy on how he arrived at the gas station while OC and ask for his id or information, had he not had the CHL his ass would be in big trouble. I am trying to see this from both sides, both being the police and the supposedly harassed gun owner. Seems they both could have and should have handled the situation differently, but that apparently did not happen "as far as we know". How is this eroding away our rights, what ever happened to working with police and not against them? And the dollar amount that this asshat is asking for "600,000 for emotional trauma alone" is laughable at best. The guy chose to open carry vs concealed in a type of establishment that is known for getting robbed at gunpoint, yes the 911 caller overreacted and was obviously ignorant. This could have been a police officer for all they knew, and I wonder if it had been would he had complied by showing his ID? Sorry but this is all making a mountain out of a mole hill for me, and unless you are in law enforcement, open carry is just asking for negative attention. Women can walk around topless in Ohio and it is perfectly legal, but we know that is never going to be accepted and will cause nothing but accidents in pants and on the streets. There are lots of laws where we are legal to do something, but are we still immune from police not being able to question us? I think unless you have walked in an officers shoes, it is awfully easy for the rest of us to cast stones.

Well said.

[Tigerpaw]

Serious question...

Can you OC, at a normally authorized place, that currently has a security detail?

i.e. a presidential visit.

Sorry to go off-topic.

[conn-e-rot]

If you want a up close and personal meeting with the secret service