First Race On The Fzr At Mid Ohio's Ama/wera Vmd Event

[fireman_343]

Got to race my little 400 at Mid Ohio during the AMA/WERA VMD event.

Had a blast, but now I know what it's like to have a underpowered 400.. As the guys that beat me were on built 490's and one fast rider on a hawk 650! Overall, both days I finished 4th.. Less than a sec away from 3rd.. After watching my gopro video, I now know a few places where I can gain some ground and take some time off. Best lap was a 1:47.. I'm sure after I ditch the crappy bstone DOT's and slap on some slicks, as well as change the gearing, I'll be down a few seconds. Now all I need to do is get more seat time on it at some races. It's a different bike for sure.. Handles great, but need to keep the revs up high to get any power.. I'm so use to fuel injected bikes like the r6 and 600rr that I'm still trying to get use to the carbs and no power on the low end. Overall, great bike for someone wanting to get into road racing or for a old guy like me who just wants to go out and have fun without having a 120+hp beast to control, this is a great bike for that!!

Anyway... Here is a video from Sunday race...

http://youtu.be/WBPJjI4ZQ7U

And yes, I put on 08 R6 race plastics in it..

Edited July 29, 2013 by fireman_343

[John]

ahh you put r6 plastics on it that makes sense now...  i saw that pic you posted in your reply to me the other day in your profile, and im pretty sure i saw your bike on the track too... i was like how he hell does this dude ride an r6 in the vintage race???  i thought maybe you were in some crazy class i didnt know about lol. 

 

you asked where i was too, during your race we were right at the bridge between turns 9 and 10, leaning up against the gate that opens out to the track. there is a speaker on a post right there, and that's where i heard them say your name.

 

after that race was over we walked up and got some food and then went through the tunnel under the track and sat in the grandstands at the end of the back straight.  that was the race that 3 people went down in turn 9. not sure what happened there... either the track was super wet or someone's engine let go and dumped oil everywhere... 3 of them went down one right after the other.  

 

we left not too long after that, and went up to the fairgrounds in ashland for the flat track races. 

 

ive got a bunch more pics, but they are on my digital cam... these two were from my phone. i MAY have a photo of you on there too, ill have to look again, now that i know what bike you had.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2013 by John

[fireman_343]

Haha.. Yeah, I got a lot of odd looks when I showed up!

Turn 9 had a puddle on the inside.. Someone dropped there knew in it and got the race line wet.. My friend was one of them that went down! The track was very slippery on Sat!!

[John]

ahh yeah, that makes sense... we could see it from the grandstands, but weren't totally sure what happened...  it was POURING in columbus on our way up there, so i was hoping that the races didn't get rained out. everyone seemed like they were OK after crashing though... they all got up and were walking around, so i hope your friend is all good

 

it rained in ashland right after the final heat, and they never got to run the mains. they ended up doing it on sunday. at least we got to see the heats though... we saw a kid bite it real hard into the fence at ashland too. it was scary for a few minutes, he was just laying on the track not moving. after a while he got up and was moving around though, so thats good.

[Photos by Marty]

Those pics look pretty good Brian.  Who's the hack photographer?

[fireman_343]

Haha! Thanks Marty! Yeah. The pics you took came out great! Thanks for shooting a few of me on the track. I'm sure you'll see me again at a motoseries event

[Moto-Brian]

It's less about power and more about speed in the technical stuff that will net you more time.  Just getting a 490 will not net the needed 6 plus seconds you needed to win.  Wade is a talented rider for sure and has a load of experience.  His corner speed is what took him to the lap times for example on a smaller displacement bike.  

 

There is proof in the fact that a 600 can run 2 seconds off the lap time of an AMA Superbike for example...  Cameron running a :27.7 with two laps to go in the DSB class shows what is capable no matter the machine size.

 

The idea is to work on skill set and get the time dropped by riding the bike.  Suggestion would be that if you are serious to race big bikes, ditch the smaller bikes and work on race craft with the big bikes.  Yes, bigger bike such as a 490 will assist, but that 6 seconds is not just the 90 extra CCs...  Majority is craft...

 

Tires are going to net small increases also.  We can run DOT street tires (non race compounds) on heavy and stock street bikes at competitive lap times.  The tires can do the job - especially on a LW bike.  But, all things equal, 490, slicks and experience, you have a fighting chance.  But don't blame the tires and machine when a majority is rider ability especially at a track like Mid-O where ability shines.  I know you were not blaming those things per say, but it comes across that had you had the same stuff, you'd be right there.  Components mean nothing unless there is the experience to go along with it.

 

120HP is a beast for old guys????  

[fireman_343]

Wow, I'm not saying I'm a super talented, motogp, AMA star or anything... I was just giving my insight to the race weekend and how it went. I know Wade and Aaron are both super fast and talented riders with lots of seat time and laps around Mid Ohio.. (Thats why they are experts and im just a "novice") All things considered... I feel that I did ok for my first time racing the bike that I've only rode 2 times prior to VMD, first time was last summer and I haven't tossed a leg over it since the Star School at Mid Ohio last Oct. I thought the DOT's did "ok" but for the race I wish I had slicks on, I'm sure you and most racers will agree that the 603's are great for track day tires and I'll leave it at that..

Coming from riding 600's on the track in the past had me wishing for more speed. I'm not saying that if I had a 490 or even a 600 in the bike that I'd do better, I'm sure it would of helped, but Wade and Aaron both rode the wheels off those bikes and have them set up perfect, as I'm still messing with setup and still trying to get a feel for the bike (how it handles, the power delivery, gearing, brakes, etc...) You are right about the seat time.. both Aaron and Wade told me that with more seat time, I'll only get better. And I'd have to agree!

One thing that you and I don't agree on is that I feel racing the mini's help. There are multiple guys racing in my club that race big bikes (and do well on both) and feel the say way. It's apples to oranges I guess... Some feel it helps, others don't.. I'm not going to give up one or the other... I'll still race the NSF and FZR both for FUN.. I'm too old to worry about chasing points, or championships... I just want to have fun doing what I love.

Would it of been nice to win or get a podium my first time racing the FZR... Hell yes! But, even with me coming in 4th place, I had a blast and can't wait to race with Wade and Aaron again in the future!

I'll race it as much as I can this year to get as much track time as I can, and hope to do even better next year at VMD.

[fireman_343]

Also...I never said if I had more power or slicks on that I'd beat Wade or Aaron... Not once did I say that! Just said that I could of come down a few sec on the track if I had that! My goal was to get into the 45's...I pushed the bike as hard as I felt comfortable doing on the setup i was running.

Wade did a 41 something! There's no way I'm going to pull that off my first time racing at Mid O! I know that and Never said I could!

I have mad respect for both Wade and Aaron! Both are great guys with sweet bikes an definitely know their way around Mid O!

Congrats to them, I just hope I can at least hang with them both for more than 2 laps next year!

Edited July 30, 2013 by fireman_343

[Moto-Brian]

Racing minis isn't going to help with big bikes, man.  Maybe as a progression from the mini to say, an RS125 and then to big bikes.  We see that progression in a lot of the up and coming kids.  But to use it as a training tool, the application does not apply.  The guys you refer to?  Who are they that they do rather well racing big bikes?  Just asking to compare that comment as multiple guys doing well on both insinuates that there are several that are racing and doing well on big bikes and I do not know of any that are racing currently within the region...

 

As far as the seat time, yes it only gets better as you progress.  But, if minis are a great step and training tool, you should adapt rather quickly.  All I am saying is that as seen in your post replying to mine, you tend to come across as having excuses.  Saying the minis help and then in the same breath saying you need more time to sort the way the bike handles, feels, brakes, etc - it sounds like you need more big bike seat time.  Then to say you were wishing for more speed as you've experienced on a 600, what times have you done on the 600?  

 

Yes, we all have to get used to the bikes we race and ride.  And yes, changing bikes and racing can cause a learning step to occur.  Lord knows I have changed brands in the last 4 seasons, 3 different bikes.  All three being VERY different in terms of chassis, handling, feel, etc.  But I am close to the same times on each bike.  The idea being that you have to dial them in to a sharper point and changing can cause that point to take time.  The bike may change, but the ability does not.

 

In the end, tires you refer, and the additional 90 CCs is not going to net 3 seconds on that bike.  If I put you on Wade's bike, you most likely wouldn't drop 3 seconds straight away.  Again, realize that at the point you are for the bike you have now, there is a limit you've reached.  Yes, more seat time, better setup, tires etc are going to drop that time a little and develop more ability.  But, at this stage where you are right now, you have a set time you've been able to achieve.  If with that same level of ability, you were slapped on the same machine with a better setup and everything, do you think you'd drop 3 seconds?  

 

The answer is that at some point, we all have a level of ability we end up.  Some of us get to the point where we hit a limit of our ability and where we can continue to.  Meaning, no matter what we ride or how great the bike is, we can only do so much as our ability level can only support us so far.  If racing minis makes you adapt to big bikes and the fact that you ride those on a regular basis, you should be able to take that ability and adapt quickly and at the same level you are at the mini level, correct?  I would argue that it is not the case.  It isn't a slam, but rather just something that is factual.  We have a limit.  We can be a bad ass mini bike rider on small dirt bikes, but not be as good when racing full size MX bikes for example...  

 

My point is that congrats on your accomplishments.  But, try and avoid saying that there were things that would have brought you closer to the lead guys.  Also, try to avoid saying that minis are a very good source of training and relate rather well when if you are the lead guy in minis, you should then be a lead guy in big bikes...  It comes across differently and we that work hard at the big bike level that have in fact raced and ridden minis, we feel that it is a slap in the face of what we are doing.  

 

For example, "Had I been able to have practice and race on Wednesday, I feel that I could have got the setup dialed in a little better and while not saying I'd run the 31s that Gene and Stymie did, I think that we could have pulled off low 32s easily.  Maybe into high 31s, but cannot say for sure."  Or, "We did a great job today with the DNS in yesterday's races.  But, Stymie and Gene were on a different planet and we just didn't have what was needed to keep the pace.  We will go back and work on some things and hope to be closer come the next race!"  This essentially tells a story and is something that can be justified and understood.  Had I stated "If I had more seat time and had the same build and money they've dropped into their racebikes as Stymie and Gene in my bike, I could have dropped several seconds which would have put me on their tails through the races.", I would have been viewed as making excuses...  See what I mean?

 

 

I too am old and probably older than even you are.  I also do not chase points anymore and ride and race for the comradery and the competition it delivers.  But my outlook and focus is different.  I hate to lose at anything I do.  Anything...  It is a hobby and it is all just for keeping the skills somewhat sharp.  The days of making money racing is long gone.  But, when the faceshield is clicked down, this sport is as serious as a heart attack.  It isn't golf, it isn't softball, and it isn't minis.  It's WAY serious and the possibility of death is extremely high.  That makes it serious.  It is fun at times when we are practicing and doing track days.  But even at that level, fun only to a degree.  Fun is in the pits.  Fun is when we are bench racing or talking about the last session.  If you feel it is all warm and fuzzy with flowers and bunnies, stay off the track, please.  We expect the focus to be that it is serious and if the world is fun and full of bunnies and such, you are likely to make a lot of mistakes.  Your mistakes can kill someone.  Errors are a part of everything humans do.  But if there is something that distracts you from that focus, it can be deadly.

 

My suggestion is to get more seat time on the big bike.  You are not going to progress otherwise.  Same with a few of the guys that have shown at the trackdays on 125s and 250s.  They have been very scary in the lack of ability or understanding of what is needing to be focused on at the big tracks...  Minis are fun, are cool and certainly not something to give up.  But, if you want to excel and get better on the big bike, you need to ride the big bike and setup the big bike and work the big bike...

[Steve Butters]

i ran low 28s on my yz80. come at me brian.

 

honestly though, it seems like you read WAY too much into his post.....his OP doesnt come across as making excuses or putting anyone else down. he said his bike is underpowered, and with a few changes he should be able to pick up some extra time....more hp, slicks, and gearing changes should definitely net faster times even if his ability stays the same....all he did was mention needing to make some changes to his bike and getting more seat time....youre taking it all way too seriously

 

as for racing minis and moving to big bikes, no idea on that front...my comment is just towards the whole "slap in the face" thing you mentioned.....i dont see anything negative about his post at all

[Moto-Brian]

i ran low 28s on my yz80. come at me brian.

 

honestly though, it seems like you read WAY too much into his post.....his OP doesnt come across as making excuses or putting anyone else down. he said his bike is underpowered, and with a few changes he should be able to pick up some extra time....more hp, slicks, and gearing changes should definitely net faster times even if his ability stays the same....all he did was mention needing to make some changes to his bike and getting more seat time....youre taking it all way too seriously

 

as for racing minis and moving to big bikes, no idea on that front...my comment is just towards the whole "slap in the face" thing you mentioned.....i dont see anything negative about his post at all

Yeah...  I probably over reacted.  But to say that minis are something that relates is silly.  The mini guys he runs with all feel this way and I have yet to see any of them post positive results...

[fireman_343]

Yeah... I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks you are reading into my post way too much! I've never once said I could win the race with Wades bike or one that's equal.. Just that I could of come down a few sec... Hell, Friday in practice I was running 31psi in my tires front and rear (cold) don't k ow why, but that's what I started off with... The Bridgestone tire guy said I was NUTS for running that much air and for racing on those tires.. That said... He did help me out and told me to drop the pressures (a lot) and I went from a 1:50 to a 1:47.. Huge difference in feel! If I could get an even better "feel" out of slicks, some more hp and fine tune my setup.. I'd for sure drop my time! Not saying I'd win, beat Wade or anyone else.. But that my times would improve!

And that's the goal!!

Now.. As far as the mini vs big bike debate. I really don't want to go back and forth with this! I know you and Tyler Butts father have had differences in the past in regards to mini racing and his son. Those guys have not raced with us for years, and I only follow Tyler on FB.. So all I know is he stopped racing big bikes and now just races flat track stuff. If u are referring to those as your source of what didn't work, then you don't know who races with our cub anymore.

I really don't want to name everyone, and feel its childish to keep going back and forth with this. I think racing minis is good practice, cheap fun and a way to learn a little about road racing. I'm not saying each of these guys listed below feel the same way that I do, but the fact that they came from racing minis and or continue to do so says something!

I'm sure you know about Harrison Ringle. He was a fast kid on minis and moved up to 250's winning the championship on it, and now races a SV650 and doing very well! Great kid! Oh and BTW, battled Leukemia in his early racing career.. And won that also!!

Devon Perlenfein races WERA, does very well on his CBR and also in the lead to win the championship with the minis. Steve Patlovich won the number 1 plate in V7 class.. Raced with us a few times and has done very well.. Steve rides a lot of MX on smaller displacement bikes. Chris Wallace & David Henderson, use to race GLERA before it went under and David raced WERA and the old moto series also. Dave did well with both big and small bikes. Jordan Reid, races RS125/TZ250's now, but was instantly fast on a old borrowed 600 when he raced it. Sean Pickrell, use to race both, Steve Massy, races 125's does very well, use to race an FZR, Jimmy Pooler, WERA racer and walks away from everyone on a XR100, Mark Hatten use to race a Duc, believe he still does for AHRMA and qualified for AMA races back in the day, Jared Trees, ultra fast on minis, moved up to an R6, won several races back in the day before he got out of it and now races minis and wins all the time .. I can go on and on, as I'm sure there are more...

The point is NOT that mini racing will make you a fast racer on bigger bikes, but for the majority of the guys that do dabble in the bigger bikes all do very well! Mini racers don't think they are better than any big bike racer! If you got that "vibe" from a few older members, then I'm sorry.. We are NOT about that. We just like to have fun with about a third of the cost of racing a big bike!

[fireman_343]

You know what... Now that I think about it... I came on here to share my experience with racing at VMD. Not get into a debate, an argument or anything else. I just wanted to share what went on, my goals for next time and whatnot. Maybe help a future racer or someone looking to race Vintage or a modern class. I didn't ask for my post to be picked apart or dissected and words put in that I didn't say. After going back and reading this again, it's starting to piss me off. If me sharing pics/video everytime here is going to be like this then I'll leave. I have to deal enough with negative people in real life, don't need it here.

[jbot]

it's just desmo-brian when he gets into his... uhh... moods.  he gets into these phases every once in a while. give him some time to step back, realize what actually happened, facepalm, read again, double face palm, and then make some super long treatise on why he's actin' a fool.

 

you should come race motoseries on your fzr.  i think you can race with the SV650's.  Pretty sure, anyway.  would be great to ride with you again, even though i only rode with you like once or twice around hocking hills back when i was learning and barely not killing myself. also, to say "riding with you" was kind of misleading, since you, and i think it was chadd (his username was wuclan99) was so far far away out in front, i never actually saw you guys.

 

anyway, we race beaver (and nelson and putnam), you can play on the main track with us!

 

keep posting up the racing action. i missed the last two rounds of racing, so i'm consuming anything racing related like crazy to keep from going crazy.

[fireman_343]

Thanks man.. Yeah...I know...I try and give everyone some credit, I can take some bashing here or there (hell, I get it all the time at my work here at the fire house, we all act like kids most of the time). I'm just done with it! I'll move on, ignore the negative stuff and focus my efforts on helping people.

But, I've been told to race moto series by a lot of my friends, I think I'll have to try an make a race soon! I'd come to Putnam but I'll be in Dallas that weekend, and missed last weekend due to my 14th year wedding anniversary (got to keep the boss happy). We will ride/race again soon buddy! I miss all those CORE guys/gals!

[Moto-Brian]

Well...  First of all, Tyler's dad and I have NEVER had any issues.  Don't know where that false info came from.  I've known Tyler's dad for a long time and even when he worked at the dealership.  So, no idea what shit that is coming from.  I've told Wolfie that he needs to get out sooner than he did if he wants to get into the big bikes.  i think there was a lot of wasted time racing the crowd he was.  He wa wasting talent.  This isn't CA...  He needed to get on a big bike and train.  Get on a 125 like he did and start developing himself.  If Troy was thinking I was giving him shit about it, he never told me. 

 

I'll say one more thing as to not get your panties in a bunch and cry and stomp off...  Dave Henderson is probably th WORSE example you could use.  That guy has a mouth as fast as Rossi in his hay day.  I remember fondly him bragging about how fast he was and that he won a championship with a basically small and meaningless club and had no idea who he was talking to.  Needless to say, he wasn't much to match up against WERA guys nor when he visited Mid-O with his bad ass truck and attitude.  It was pretty fun passing him tight and fast...  Then to put the hurt on him with bone stock XR100s at Beaver was icing on the cake... 

 

I'll stop now so you don't run away pouting...  Good luck next year at VMD.  See ya at Mid-Ohio I am sure at some point I am sure.

 

i got to get a bike prepped for Putnam next weekend.  Cheers.

[Gixxus Christ!]

Damn, you really gotta run that sucker on boil to get power.

[fireman_343]

Brian, I knew when I put his name down that he would be the one u pick out from the list to bash! Lol I'll admit he was a little "cocky" back in the day, but he has since calmed down and knows better now. I'm sure you'll never see him again as he lives in Phx, Az and gave up racing a few years ago. He did race a few WERA rounds at freebird track out there (I think that's what it's called) and won.

Anyway, no hard feelings... Just don't pick apart my posts unless I'm asking for it! I'm all about some constructive criticism on my riding ability, style, etc...I'm open to any helpful tips! I just don't like it when words or topics are read wrong and taken completely out of context. If I'm going to say something, I'll make it very clear! Lol

I know u know your stuff about racing, setup, tires, this bike and that bike...you might even be a nice guy in person.. But when u pick apart my OP and look into it more than what's there..it does come off as a slap in the face. I'll admit.. Getting your point across in text like this is sometimes hard, emotions are hard to express on message boards unless the reply is very blunt! Lol

I'm sure we will meet at one of the tracks around here soon. I know I'd love to see that new Duc of yours person, always a big fan of them and yours does look bad ass! Take care

[fireman_343]

Damn, you really gotta run that sucker on boil to get power.

Yeah, it's a different bike! Loves the high revs! Reminds me a little bit like my old 00 R6.. That bike produced good power high in the revs!

[Gixxus Christ!]

My fzr600 was mostly top end too, but it came up on the cams at around 6.5k. I didn't see the needle hardly drop below 7 on your video. I'd have to say I prefer the low end power of the big bore bikes, but I don't race so different application, different bike. Ever thought about popping a 600 mill in that aluminum frame? Should bolt right up and the 600's had steel frames so you'd have the advantage of less weight vs other 600's of that vintage.

[fireman_343]

Yeah I thought of it... My race 1 video I have.. I had a good battle with a guy on a 400 frame with a 600 motor. He was good, but I always passed him in the carousel only for him to pass me on the back straight again! Lol

I know not having more power will always help, but if I had it I'd be able to do better.

I think I'll stick with the little 400 for now. It works great, but maybe I'll look into getting more power after I see what times I can run with just some more practice, change some suspension settings and proper race tires!