Michael Brown shooting

[dustinsn3485]

I'm in the car has no relevance to the shooting camp. Cops have a duty to protect, if Brown was running away and the cop was yelling surrender it's my opinion the cop has every right to shoot since Brown wasn't surrendering. He may not have been a threat to the cop anymore, but he had already assaulted the cop and was, at that point, a threat to society.

It's also my opinion that a cop follows a different set of rules than a CHL holder. While a CHL citizen can not fire once the threat is gone, a cop can justify the threat being toward society as I've already said and still take the shot.

I with hold my final opinion until more definitive evidence is out. Though it's becoming more clear each day.

[ScubaCinci]

There has been a history of residents complaining that the FPD has been too heavy handed in dealing with residents, and targeted black residents disproportionally.

Conversely, there have indications of black residents of Ferguson being less than cooperative with the FPD.  This all adds up to lots of tension.

 

Warning the following contains **opinions** read at your own risk.

 

This confrontation started off just like many others in Fergson.

 

Dorian (the friend), said the after the cop said "Get the fuck off the street"  he backed up and struck them with the door.  Then the door accidentally bounced back and hit the officer.  Dorian forgot to mention that they probably just helped an old lady across the street and were signing gospel songs...

 

According to the officer, he tried to exit the vehicle and the door was violently slammed shut on him.  He likely just finished rescuing a basket full of puppies and then donated money to your favorite charity...

 

Like most cases the truth is in the middle.

 

You have a A-hole, rule crazy cop and two kids who aren't particularly interested in cooperating with said A-hole cop.  The cop intentionally hit them with the door and they intentionally hit him with it back.  Cop is pissed that they did not respect his authority and grabs Brown, struggle ensues.

 

Now put yourself in the situation of being in a struggle with someone you don't trust and they are reaching for a gun...what do you do?  Try to stop the gun from being pointed at you, right?  =  The kid reached for my gun...taken out of context than sounds like Brown was attempting to shoot the officer.  I'm sure Brown felt was fighting for his life...it turned out he was.

 

Flame on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You forgot the part about the midget on the skateboard being towed by a unicorn who deflected the bullets fired at the office to strike Mr. Brown.

[Scruit]

Because if the officer is giving chase, Brown is no longer escalating the situation.  He is fleeing.  Fleeing an officer is not legal, but not punishable by death.

 

In general terms, I agree.  Justifying the shooting of fleeing suspect requires the officer demonstrate he or she believed that allowing him to escape presented an immediate danger to the community - something difficult to argue when we're talking about an unarmed person.

 

However in this exact case, the "officer shooting during the pursuit" claim is a matter of contention and is not been proven by any physical evidence, so cannot be reliably stated as absolute fact.

[Tpoppa]

Legal precedent.  Court ruled against the officer:

 

Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985)^[1], was a case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that under the Fourth Amendment, when a law enforcement officer is pursuing a fleeing suspect, he or she may use deadly force to prevent escape only if the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.

[Scruit]

Legal precedent.  Court ruled against the officer:

 

Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985)^[1], was a case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that under the Fourth Amendment, when a law enforcement officer is pursuing a fleeing suspect, he or she may use deadly force to prevent escape only if the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.

 

I'm aware of Garner, have cited it already in this thread I believe.  Did you post that to refute something I said?  Or just for general information.

 

I had said the officer would have to show they "believed that allowing him to escape presented an immediate danger to the community", which I feel is an appropriate paraphrasing of "believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."

[Tpoppa]

I'm aware of Garner, have cited it already in this thread I believe.  Did you post that to refute something I said?  Or just for general information.

 

I had said the officer would have to show they "believed that allowing him to escape presented an immediate danger to the community", which I feel is an appropriate paraphrasing of "believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."

No.  I was posting at the same time as you, so it was not a response to yours.

[Scruit]

No.  I was posting at the same time as you, so it was not a response to yours.

 

 

Then we are in belligerent agreement.  So to speak. 

[ohiomike]

To help us possibly realize the type of person Brown was, he was filmed just prior to the shooting having robbed a small store where he shoved the store owner aside when confronted at the door with the stolen items.  He also is said to have quite a police record along those lines.  Although it has no bearing on the shooting, it does reflect his tendencies and responses to 'being caught'.

 

Aboiut the FPD being a bit heavy handed with black's, Ferguson is said to be 67.4% black and the PD is predominantly white.  It stands to reason with the majority of the population being black there is going to be an inordinate number of blacks involved in criminal activity as well as a small white PD probably feeling quite outnumbered.  While it should not make a difference, I'm sure it plays into these claims from a psychological point.

[cOoTeR]

There has been a history of residents complaining that the FPD has been too heavy handed in dealing with residents, and targeted black residents disproportionally.

Conversely, there have indications of black residents of Ferguson being less than cooperative with the FPD.  This all adds up to lots of tension.

 

Warning the following contains **opinions** read at your own risk.

 

This confrontation started off just like many others in Fergson.

 

Dorian (the friend), said the after the cop said "Get the fuck off the street"  he backed up and struck them with the door.  Then the door accidentally bounced back and hit the officer.  Dorian forgot to mention that they probably just helped an old lady across the street and were signing gospel songs...

 

According to the officer, he tried to exit the vehicle and the door was violently slammed shut on him.  He likely just finished rescuing a basket full of puppies and then donated money to your favorite charity...

 

Like most cases the truth is in the middle.

 

You have a A-hole, rule crazy cop and two kids who aren't particularly interested in cooperating with said A-hole cop.  The cop intentionally hit them with the door and they intentionally hit him with it back.  Cop is pissed that they did not respect his authority and grabs Brown, struggle ensues.

 

Now put yourself in the situation of being in a struggle with someone you don't trust and they are reaching for a gun...what do you do?  Try to stop the gun from being pointed at you, right?  =  The kid reached for my gun...taken out of context than sounds like Brown was attempting to shoot the officer.  I'm sure Brown felt was fighting for his life...it turned out he was.

 

Flame on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you think it is ok to reach for a cops gun regardless of the situation you should expect to be shot. Just because Brown left the scene of the initial contact does not mean he was no longer a threat. Trying to claim self defense because you were fleeing a cop is not a valid defense.

[Tpoppa]

Just because Brown left the scene of the initial contact does not mean he was no longer a threat. 

According to the Supreme Court it does.  See Above.

 

If he was endangering someone else with a weapon or trying to take a hostage, the officer could shoot to protect the public.  

[Scruit]

From a legal perspective, the robbery is largely irrelevant to the actual shooting.  What is DOES do is help jurors get into the heads of those involved and try to understand motives.

 

Key factors:

 

- Did the officer know about the robbery, and did he believe Brown was the suspect?  That could explain why his response escalated quickly.

- Did Brown fear that he was going to be arrested?  That could make us believe that he fought the officer.

- Is Dorian Johnson worried about being charged in relation to the robbery or his interaction with the officer?  That might make us wonder if he's lying or omitting facts to save himself legal woes.

[Scruit]

According to the Supreme Court it does.  See Above.

 

If he was endangering someone else with a weapon or trying to take a hostage, the officer could shoot to protect the public.  

 

I would have to agree with this.  Trying to take the officer's gun is grounds for being shot, however if you STOP trying to take the gun and run away then the justification becomes less clear.  It would be extremely difficult to make the argument that Brown was am immediate deadly threat to the public as he ran away unarmed.

 

Having said that, his ass is still getting arrested and quite rightly so, so him running away does not mean the officer cannot chase him.  In fact the officer is likely required by policy to pursue.  Him running away unarmed just means he cannot be stopped by shooting him.

 

Once he turned around again, the fatal shots were fired.  What was Brown doing at that exact moment?  Surrendering or charging?  At the end of the day that is all that matters here.

 

 

I expect the officer will be charged unless compelling proof of Brown charging the officer is found.  This would have to be a video etc.  If it stays as one set of witnesses versus another set of witnesses then that will go to trial. 

[Tpoppa]

Once he turned around again, the fatal shots were fired.  What was Brown doing at that exact moment?  Surrendering or charging?  At the end of the day that is all that matters here.

 

 

I expect the officer will be charged unless compelling proof of Brown charging the officer is found.  This would have to be a video etc.  If it stays as one set of witnesses versus another set of witnesses then that will go to trial. 

 

Yes.  After all the extraneous circumstances and emotions are distilled away this is the pertinent legal issue.  It could even come down to what was occuring at the moment the final fatal shot was fired.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Tpoppa

[ohiomike]

The shot to the head might be the telling blow....

[Scruit]

This is why confirmation bias is a horrible thing:

 

 

The "orbital blowout fracture" claim may have been a hoax.

 

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/20/fake-injury-ferguson/

 

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2014/08/21/nr-lemon-grace-officers-broken-eye-socket-claim-false.cnn.html

Edited August 21, 2014 by Scruit

[cOoTeR]

According to the Supreme Court it does.  See Above.

 

If he was endangering someone else with a weapon or trying to take a hostage, the officer could shoot to protect the public.

I was unclear in what I ment. Just because he left the scene of the initial incident at the car does not mean that there was no way he could do something else threatening. As in he could have left the car but then turned around (according to the shot placement he did turn around) and become threatening at that time away from the car. Just because he was not shot at the car doesn't mean he was not being a threat.

[cOoTeR]

Also if he had made an attempt to take the officer's gun that has to weigh into the totality of the circumstances. If he already attempted to take the gun. Then after initially moving away began approaching back towards the officer who had his gun drawn and not listening to what the cop says. How would the cop not feel like his life was in danger.

[Tpoppa]

As in he could have left the car but then turned around (according to the shot placement he did turn around) and become threatening at that time away from the car. Just because he was not shot at the car doesn't mean he was not being a threat.

As mention above this is the relevant legal issue.

What was Brown doing when he was shot? Running away, surrendering, or charging?

Was Brown already incapacitated at the time of the final fatal shot?

Edited August 22, 2014 by Tpoppa

[cOoTeR]

That is where you are wrong.  Distance from the vehicle is critical.  He is moving away from the officer.  That means he is not a threat or no longer a threat, depending on how you want to word it.

 

Assume he had assaulted the cop, then tried to flee.  Is he still a threat?  Is it OK for an officer to kill a fleeing individual?  Is the officer realistically defending himself any longer, or is it something closer to seeking revenge?  For the record, I am not certain that the officer was assaulted to begin with.  I expect more facts will shed some light on whether or not the officer was assaulted..

^^^^here you said that he was not a threat based on the distance from the police cruiser to where he died.

[bigd]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/20/kajieme-powell-shooting_n_5696546.html

 

3 miles from the ferguson shooting, sounds like this happened on tuesday. 

Warning, video of the actual shooting is at the link. 

 

So, this Kajieme Powell...did this guy warrant a shooting?

(NOT SAYING THIS GUY WASN'T A MORON, WHO WAS ASKING TO BE SHOT)

 

But, I have a hard time dealing with the variance between the "description" of the shooting by the officers initially and what appears to be the actual reality.

Why wouldn't both officers firing tazers be effective here?

 

Or the youtube video link here:

[Tpoppa]

^^^^here you said that he was not a threat based on the distance from the police cruiser to where he died.

 

You really need to read more closely.  Distance is critical because he was moving away from the officer, which is fleeing and no longer a threat.  Feel free to argue that point with the Supreme Court ruling above.

 

So, after that he turned around which was either either attempting to surrender or possibly charging back toward the officer.  Statements on that point are being presented to the Grand Jury currently, and would likely be a key issue in a trail. 

I would have to agree with this.  Trying to take the officer's gun is grounds for being shot, however if you STOP trying to take the gun and run away then the justification becomes less clear.  It would be extremely difficult to make the argument that Brown was am immediate deadly threat to the public as he ran away unarmed.

 

Having said that, his ass is still getting arrested and quite rightly so, so him running away does not mean the officer cannot chase him.  In fact the officer is likely required by policy to pursue.  Him running away unarmed just means he cannot be stopped by shooting him.

 

Once he turned around again, the fatal shots were fired.  What was Brown doing at that exact moment?  Surrendering or charging?  At the end of the day that is all that matters here.

 

 

I expect the officer will be charged unless compelling proof of Brown charging the officer is found.  This would have to be a video etc.  If it stays as one set of witnesses versus another set of witnesses then that will go to trial. 

 

 

Yes.  After all the extraneous circumstances and emotions are distilled away this is the pertinent legal issue.  It could even come down to what was occuring at the moment the final fatal shot was fired.

[mango_sv]

To help us possibly realize the type of person Brown was, he was filmed just prior to the shooting having robbed a small store where he shoved the store owner aside when confronted at the door with the stolen items. He also is said to have quite a police record along those lines. Although it has no bearing on the shooting, it does reflect his tendencies and responses to 'being caught'.

Aboiut the FPD being a bit heavy handed with black's, Ferguson is said to be 67.4% black and the PD is predominantly white. It stands to reason with the majority of the population being black there is going to be an inordinate number of blacks involved in criminal activity as well as a small white PD probably feeling quite outnumbered. While it should not make a difference, I'm sure it plays into these claims from a psychological point.

From a legal perspective, the robbery is largely irrelevant to the actual shooting. What is DOES do is help jurors get into the heads of those involved and try to understand motives.

Key factors:

- Did the officer know about the robbery, and did he believe Brown was the suspect? That could explain why his response escalated quickly.

- Did Brown fear that he was going to be arrested? That could make us believe that he fought the officer.

- Is Dorian Johnson worried about being charged in relation to the robbery or his interaction with the officer? That might make us wonder if he's lying or omitting facts to save himself legal woes.

Legally the robbery is largely irrelevant other than the fact that it adds to the reasons for Brown to struggle to get away. Just robbed a store a cop I'd coming back to confront you? Fight or Flight kicks in real fast.

[C-bus]

From the second he robbed the store and roughed up the employee, he was on borrowed time in my book.

[cOoTeR]

You really need to read more closely.  Distance is critical because he was moving away from the officer, which is fleeing and no longer a threat.  Feel free to argue that point with the Supreme Court ruling above.

 

So, after that he turned around which was either either attempting to surrender or possibly charging back toward the officer.  Statements on that point are being presented to the Grand Jury currently, and would likely be a key issue in a trail.

Just because he moved away at one point does not mean he was away from the cop when shot. We know he had turned to face the cop who was likely still pursing him. Just because he walked ran or skipped 30-35 ft from the cruiser does not mean that he was in no way a threat. The cop had to arrest him so most likely was attempting that. Distance from the cruiser is not = to the distance from the cop. Your argument is invalid.

[cOoTeR]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/20/missouri-cop-was-badly-beaten-before-shooting-michael-brown-says-source/