Motoseries August 29-31 Nelson Ledges

[redkow97]

Lastly I think that they need to bump people from Novice to Intermediate sooner. They make it seem like a huge deal and then you end up having people running 10s and 11s in novice and running up on new riders left and right. They get frustrated and start to pass in places they shouldn't.

 

On a liter or 600, 11's and 10's aren't exactly lightning at PIRC.  I don't think of those as lap times that are out of place in novice.  Certainly in the top 25%, but not ridiculous.  Moving people up sooner would only create a greater disparity in lap times in Intermediate instead of in novice, and Intermediate is already full of people who are just fast enough to really get into hairy situations.

 

as for 'getting frustrated and breaking passing rules,' that logic never made sense to me.  If I'm turning 1:10's in Novice, there is no way I should have any problems passing someone circulating at a 1:14 pace, and doing it legally, while we're both still straight up and down.

[bloodninja420]

My biggest bitch is the lack of culpability from N2. They're an arrogant bunch, or so it would seem.

 

Oh come on man, they were just evaluating that guy for A-group. CR can't help it if the guy didn't abandon his line and stand er up! 

 

See, from the N2 thread:

 

To the rider that unfortunately when down - I truly am sorry you went down, but I know this for a fact: when CR's inside pass in I group on a rider, they're evaluating that rider for A group because inside passes come out of nowhere, they're very close and more often that not, they take away your line and stand you up. One of my final days in I group, I got 3 CR's in a row run up on the inside of me and they capped it off with one passing me on the inside, the other on the outside so there was literally nowhere to go. I know that pass looked sketchy on video but it was a legit A group pass and one that you would be subjected to over and over again in A group. I know it doesn't help having to put your bike back together and having your day end that way but I just thought you should know that.

 

 

 

[redkow97]

Oh come on man, they were just evaluating that guy for A-group. CR can't help it if the guy didn't abandon his line and stand er up! 

 

See, from the N2 thread:

 

That's not a CR saying that, just another member.  I also don't think the video showed an inside pass.  The CR didn't lowside into the guy.

 

It looked to me as though the CR passed between turns 4 and 5, and either cut-off or clipped the "I" rider's front wheel as he moved back onto the race line to set up for turn 5.  I'm not saying it wasn't a dumb thing to do, but to characterize it as an "inside pass" doesn't seem correct from what I saw. 

 

I'm guessing that CR was thinking, "why did that guy just turn into my rear wheel?  He turned-in waaaaaaaaaay early if he thought he was tipping it in for turn 5."

[madcat6183]

I agree with the JBot, Novice MUST be structured, MUST. 

 

Pauly can you confirm 2 life flights?  If that was the case and they kept running after the 2nd then N2 is a ton of a55hats and people need to call them out on that.  Well, actually they are anyways, always have been..... 

[J_Copeland]

The Motoseries Novice program is great !

My instructors sucked,but that had nothing to do with lessons and teachings in the classroom and the feedback after each session.

My instructors know who they are and I expect retaliation at PIRC !

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[J_Copeland]

Chris, I don't know how you could call tens a novice pace. Novice isn't for "slow riders". It's for newbs. That sounds closer to mid-pack intermediate, to me. Maybe I'm too slow to know any better, but the pace differences were causing huge problems. I don't believe these novice riders were any slower than regular novice riders. The quicker riders should have been moved up, or asked to leave the track for riding with incredible lack of regard for the rest of the group. Most were doing alright, but there were quite a few being complete fucking idiots. It wasn't hard to see, unless your were too busy taking out other riders with your control bike.

Low class outfit, all the way around. You had to be there.

I run 9-11's in I,probably mid pack in I.

The newbs I'd guess are easily 20's +

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[jbot]

So did the CR get his picture taken with his crown after winning King of Intermediate?

[J_Copeland]

So did the CR get his picture taken with his crown after winning King of Intermediate?

His crown was an A$$hat !

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[MidgetTodd]

 

as for 'getting frustrated and breaking passing rules,' that logic never made sense to me.  If I'm turning 1:10's in Novice, there is no way I should have any problems passing someone circulating at a 1:14 pace, and doing it legally, while we're both still straight up and down.

Wrong. You on a 600, other guy on 1000. Blows you away on every straight and brakes hard for turns. You're not gonna pass him within the rules in Novice. See it all the time. I have the same issue with my sumo at Mid O. I can't run anyone down in the straights, I have to pass in turns and almost always on the inside. Difference is though, I do it clean and with room or I don't do it.

[RHill]

That's not a CR saying that, just another member.  I also don't think the video showed an inside pass.  The CR didn't lowside into the guy.

 

It looked to me as though the CR passed between turns 4 and 5, and either cut-off or clipped the "I" rider's front wheel as he moved back onto the race line to set up for turn 5.  I'm not saying it wasn't a dumb thing to do, but to characterize it as an "inside pass" doesn't seem correct from what I saw. 

 

I'm guessing that CR was thinking, "why did that guy just turn into my rear wheel?  He turned-in waaaaaaaaaay early if he thought he was tipping it in for turn 5."

 

Agreed, I don't think it is an inside pass at all, just a pass on the small straight that was setup by exiting the turn on the inside behind the rider.  Literally happens multiple times EVERY session in I. 

 

I'll stand by the my initial judgement of the rider hesitating with the pass of the slower rider on the edge of the track....compare the video takers exit of 4 to previous laps, way lighter roll on the throttle.  The hesitation made the CR think he was checking up behind the other rider, which reasured his pass (that was already setup on the inside).  Then, at the end of the candy striping, the rider goes WOT and continues to turn into the center of the track for passing margin on the slower bike ahead; without realizing there is a bike closing to his inside. 

 

Two converging lines with timing that would have made it very difficult for the CR or ANYONE to recognize.  You can't blame the CR for an unsafe pass IMHO...you can question the logic and purpose of the pass though.

 

 

 

 

1 rider alone in I is predictable, 2 or more be cautions and ready to react.  You better be 100% sure of the situation and have "outs" if you are going for a multi-bike pass.

Edited September 2, 2014 by RHill

[madcat6183]

So did the CR get his picture taken with his crown after winning King of Intermediate?

Bro, I have so many of those photo's from Marty.  I loved being the King of Int, every weekend.

[blue03636]

It is up to the passing rider to maintain the 6' all the way around the bike.

 

That said, regardless of who's fault it was, this doesn't look good on N2. 

[redkow97]

Chris, I don't know how you could call tens a novice pace. Novice isn't for "slow riders". It's for newbs. That sounds closer to mid-pack intermediate, to me. Maybe I'm too slow to know any better, but the pace differences were causing huge problems. I don't believe these novice riders were any slower than regular novice riders. The quicker riders should have been moved up, or asked to leave the track for riding with incredible lack of regard for the rest of the group. Most were doing alright, but there were quite a few being complete fucking idiots. It wasn't hard to see, unless your were too busy taking out other riders with your control bike.

Low class outfit, all the way around. You had to be there.

 

Maybe I'm misremembering my own novice times, but I seem to recall doing 1:08's in Novice back when I had the F2.  It's not all about pace, it's about demonstrating that you can make passes on the brakes, and set people up to a good drive on them down the straights.  That is what only allowing passing on the straights is designed to teach you.  It forces you to learn, or be "held up" and bitch about it forever. 

 

Your 'solution' wouldn't alleviate that problem, it would just make the range of pace in Intermediate that much wider.  You're not solving the problem, just shifting it to a different group - the group that ALWAYS sells out.

 

If you want to advocate for 4 groups (maybe just for the first half of the day, until the true beginners are up to pace), then I'd listen harder, but this notion that people should be in Intermediate after their first or second full track day doesn't seem any safer to me than having true beginners on track with people who have the ability to ride at a decent pace.

[TRMN8TR]

I was just going to say I think the problem is most likely that Int. sold out, so riders that are normally in Int. group signed up for Novice.

 

And I don't care what org is running it, if you have people running 1:08 or 1:10 in Novice group, that is too fast for that group, so much difference in speed! Most Intermediate people can't run that time at PIRC. You'll have a lot of Novice guys running :20's and even some :30's. Hell a lot of the SV guys that run in Advance are only turning 1:06-1:07 during trackdays. And before anyone mentions it, I know it's not all about lap times but also skill and knowing how to pass and be passed. Those kind of times are just too fast for Novice group though.

[Jester_]

My fried Tim was running 1:10 and 1:11s in novice then once bumped to intermediate was able to run in the 1:09 range and was faster than about half of intermediate.

 

Advanced was pretty full all day as well, they had 31 registered not counting the control riders. I would attribute most of that to the WERA races the following weekend and everyone wanting some practice. I was only running in the 1:04 range later in the day and had to pull off twice to try to stay out of the traffic so im not sure what was going on. I am normally the slow guy in A.

[redkow97]

I understand the desire for safety on the track.  100% in agreement with that goal.  I agree with enforcing rules and having consequences for breaking them - but I reject the notion that any org can prevent riders from being asshats.  If they were observing that and not addressing it, then that is absolutely a problem, but no organization can alter the way a person is riding unless the offending rider wants to modify his habits.

 

I've never ridden with N2, but I do think it's somewhat ironic that while there are so many concerns about the "free for all" in novice at this event, my concerns about letting everyone and their brother into "Advanced" with other orgs has routinely been met with a distinct lack of concern.  It's the same disparity in pace, just at higher speeds.

 

The "more structured" novice group a few of  you are advocating leads to people being all that more fed up with novice, and forces them into Intermediate too soon.  I still don't think that's a solution.

[blue03636]

but no organization can alter the way a person is riding unless the offending rider wants to modify his habits.

 

 

This is when you help them pack up and tell them to have a nice day.

[Moto-Brian]

RK97 is way off.  First, it was an inside pass.  It was setting up for the turn, but going into the turn as an inside line.  The CR is an idiot and did a pass that was 100% avoidable.  He crossed the path of the bike he was overtaking and should have held the line SUPER tight into the turn.  He did not.  The second issue is that the rider in the vid was waiting to pass a slower rider as he approached said turn knowing he shouldn't pass on the inside and even if so, might have been inside the 6' rule.  The CR saw the slower rider in front (I am giving a HUGE benefit of the doubt) and tried to overtake BOTH riders.  THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT THE PASSING RIDER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR PASSING IN ACCORDANCE TO THE RULES AND SAFELY...

 

In the process, taking out the posting guy. 

 

This happens when you get CRs that race vs. teach.  Happens all the time and honestly, probably a "racer" that is not up to the task to help at a track day and certainly isn't capable of judging and adapting to the situation.

 

Look, close passes happen.  I am guilty as anyone.  The speed difference can lead to some sketchy issues.  But the CR was easily heard early enough he could have shut it down and at worse case, been REALLY tight to the grass on the right side.  He didn't.  He blasted past the guy...

 

As for lap times?  1:10 isn't novice times.  Maybe Novice RACER times, but not Novice Group times.  This is also another issue where arguing times is about as dumb as arguing if that guy hit the other rider.  The times of in the teens up to say, 1:15 is an Intermediate time for sure.  1:0X is an advance time at a track day.  Maybe more like up to 1:07... 

 

Finally, RK...  Leave the teaching to people with ability.  The design of passing on straights is to keep riders safe!  If a rule applies to pass only on a straight, that is to keep the passing rider who is over their head from playing Bowling For Dollars.  The idea is that the typical group with straights only passing is that they do not have the ability to pass on the outside at minimum in fear of poor judgement.  Passing inside is even more dangerous and therefore, not allowed in I Group.  The fact is that the groups mean something.  Passing on on straights will teach nothing about drive and entry speed or especially braking techniques.  What it does is prevent bone head moves or chance taking.  Allowing I Group to pass on the inside for example is dangerous because they will dive in under braking THINKING they can outbrake and pass someone and simply plow into others, low side from too much trailing, etc.  The reasons for this is they will get in too deep for their ability to handle and thus, make a grave error.

 

Ability is the key.  Each group has a rule for passing for a reason.  It is based on ability. 

Edited September 2, 2014 by Desmo-Brian

[J_Copeland]

^^^^ Well said !

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[redkow97]

Brian, I have ignored your posts for close to a year now, but you are simply wrong on several points. 

 

First, that wasn't an inside pass any more than passing on the left in the middle of the front straight is an inside pass.  I acknowledged from the start that it was a dumb move by the CR, or appears to be on the video anyway - but it wasn't dumb because it was an "inside pass," it was dumb because it was extremely close for no discernible reason.  I could only speculate as to why the decision to pass was made, but I'm sure it wasn't to wreck the guy behind him.  He passed on the right when then next turn was also a right.  To me it looked as though he clipped the rider's bar or clipped his front wheel when he moved left to set up for the right. 

 

Second, 1:0X is not an advanced time (unless you're on an SV, maybe).  At least it never was with NESBA, and everyone here seems to think N2 is "NESBA reincarnated."  I was turning 1:05's before NESBA moved me into Advanced, and I still felt like the slow guy out there.   I have never ridden with N2, so perhaps that has changed, but I would be in the 1:08 range on my out lap with cold tires and not be the fastest guy in Intermediate.  Not by a long-shot.

 

As for the passing rules, did you make them?  You claim to be able to read the minds of the people who did and know their reasons. The passing rules are not only for safety.  Yes, disallowing inside passes prevents one rider from lowsiding into another, but I have discussed this many times with former NESBA and current N2 event directors.  Their passing rules are designed to force you to learn before you move up into the next group.  When you're only allowed to pass on the straights, you have to learn to back off and get a good drive on larger bikes, and/or be hard on the brakes and carry more speed through the following turn.  When you're only allowed to make outside passes, you have to learn to be that much quicker in a turn, and complete your pass before the other rider runs wide and blocks your line on exit, or apex later and come up the inside with more drive right at the exit.  Safety is absolutely part of it, but that is not the sole purpose of the passing rules.

 

Passing on on straights will teach nothing about drive and entry speed or especially braking techniques

 

 

That's simply false.  I learned to back off on the back straight so that I could carry more speed through turn 10 and catch people exiting 10, then pass them on the straight.  I also learned to pass people on the brakes into 1 (while still straight up and down) before tipping in and carrying more speed through 1 than they would have.  By the time you get to turn 7, any liter bikes who were on your ass entering turn 1 are not close enough to stay in front of you braking into 10 again. 

 

 

If we're going to agree to disagree, then that's fine - but try not to be so condescending about it.  I've never claimed to be god's gift to riding, but to the best of my knowledge, you have never seen me ride and have no basis for judging my abilities.  Even if you had, you could do so without being rude, couldn't you?

[madcat6183]

Were there just insurance adjusters all over the place taking tally on all the claims they were about to get? 

[rusty]

I know what I saw. rslocum was there and he saw it, too. I watched a helicopter land in the field because a rider was pinned underneath a motorcycle, unconscious for almost thirty minutes. I saw a rider break his shoulder by almost rear-ending a fellow rider. I saw another bike blow past a novice rider, run out of track (or talent), and then fly apart in the grass.

 

Maybe this is typical shit for that track. It's way shorter than anything I'm used to riding, but goddamn. Every session before lunch.. all three groups.. were red flagged. Every. Fucking. Session. Was. Red. Flagged.

 

Every session before lunch had a crash. Some had two crashes. That's a lot of smashed riders and bikes by eleven o'clock in the morning.

 

I'm not sure how that doesn't scream "unsafe environment".

Advance level had red flag in first session,second not sure,we never get out for third one because of the air lift.

This was not normal day for this track,come back in 2 weeks with motoseries and you will experience completely different riding.

Last time I was there with Nesba I count 24 crashes,last Saturday wasn't much better.i guess N2 don't learn much from Nesba.

That's why everybody who was not happy last weekend should come this weekend to midohio

[lowcel]

I still like what Mike at Mid-O says. In a pass it is the passers responsibility to pass in a way that doesn't take the rider that is being passed out of his or her comfort zone. I think that is a good rule for track days.

[MidgetTodd]

Thanks Rusty. Good idea.. I just signed Lyns up for September. If you're there, stop and say "hi!". She'll be the fucking hobit on the red Monster.

Good choice, Mid O is completely different. I'll be there as well, working or riding, not sure which yet.

[jbot]

can one of the mods separate the "I h8 N2" posts to another thread? the original thread is about actual racing and not the race for Intermediate group godhood.