MidgetTodd Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 I think Todds comment is interesting, being that he's directly in the medical field. To be clear though, I wasn't saying it as a slam, mild sarcasm maybe. But just saying if one fully believes it's the work of God then why can't I pull the IV, you know to eliminate all doubt. I get atleast one every shift that is praising Jesus or God all the way to the ER and saying they know he will heal or pull thru or some other verbiage. Every time I want to look them in the eyes and ask why they called me then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted October 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 When it comes to God healing... Why do the authorities take custody of children with life-threatening conditions when the parents rely on prayer alone? And jail parents if the child dies before the state can intervene?If god has ultimate jurisdiction over life, death and healing then why punish the parents when "god's plan" plays out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted October 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Todd: "You can praise God all you like, but it was MY hands on the defibrillator." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted October 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 (edited) "No atheists in a foxhole". Sure, fear and desperation will make you do funny things. Not necessarily *smart* things, though.Same thing happens when people in crushing debt become desperate and reach out to any company that will offer a solution even if it goes against their better judgement. Same thing happens when people run from the cops. The become more desperate as they run out of options. Edited October 9, 2014 by Scruit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadTrainDriver Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 (edited) A church attended by a friend of mine does missionary work at an orphanage in Africa. They visit regulalryly to bring donations, supervise the orphanage/school, etc. A member of the congregation recently came down with malaria and was flown home and is in the ICU.I've been following the updates on FB and after some time he is finally responding to dialysis and is doing better.The problem I have is that all the folks on the FB thread keep talking about is how god is healing him. Over and over, dozens of messages a day, all chanting that god is healing him and that only prayer will heal him. Seems to me that it's the doctors that are healing him, right? No? The dialysis? The other treatments that the doctors are administering? I'm familiar with asking for prayers but the thread had become very kool-aidy. If people think that god is healing him them shouldn't they discontinue dialysis so that they can let god do his work without interferance?Do people actually believe that there is a god that is taking time out from his day to heal him through some direct intervention? By working through the doctors? Like as in some kind of posession? Or letting the doctors toil knowing their ministrations are useless and they snappign his fingers and making him well? Does that mean that god chooses to watch other people die becuase not enough prayers were said?I did not pray at my brother's bedside when he was at death's door, and the surgeons saved his life. Was that god ignoring my failure to pray?I did not pray at my mother's bedside when she was at death's door, and the surgeons did not save her. Was that god punishing my failure to pray? Did he let my mother die because of me?The fact that you admit that you have a problem with their belief in God,is almost as stupid as them believing that God is healing them. Solution:Get a new friend, and stop Facebooking.Problem solved. Edited October 9, 2014 by BadTrainDriver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidgetTodd Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Todd: "You can praise God all you like, but it was MY hands on the defibrillator."Almost word for word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted October 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 The fact that you admit that you have a problem with their belief in God,is almost as stupid as them believing that Good is healing them.Solution:Get a new friend, and stop Facebooking.Problem solved. Well, let's replace "problem" with "confusion". If a mechanic fixes your car, it's the work on the mechanic.If a plumber fixes your toilet, it's the work of a plumber.If a doctor heals your child, then it's the work of god. Why is the fixed car not the work of god? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadTrainDriver Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Well, let's replace "problem" with "confusion". If a mechanic fixes your car, it's the work on the mechanic.If a plumber fixes your toilet, it's the work of a plumber.If a doctor heals your child, then it's the work of god. Why is the fixed car not the work of god?The same way that it's almost impossible for a believer to convince a non believer to believe, a non believer can't understand why a believer can believe. Either way, who gives a fuck. I think the real issue at hand here is why does this bother you? Does it upset you? Make you angry? Are you just confused? Perhaps sitting down with a priest for a few hours for a question/answer session will help you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zx3vfr Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Well, let's replace "problem" with "confusion". If a mechanic fixes your car, it's the work on the mechanic.If a plumber fixes your toilet, it's the work of a plumber.If a doctor heals your child, then it's the work of god.Why is the fixed car not the work of god?God/The universe blesses everyone with unique talents and abilities. People who say God heals annoy me. God did not heal, he gave the doctor a functioning brain and access to medicines and machines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 "No atheists in a foxhole" is a nice saying but it's not what I'd call a accurate statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jporter12 Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Well, let's replace "problem" with "confusion". If a mechanic fixes your car, it's the work on the mechanic.If a plumber fixes your toilet, it's the work of a plumber.If a doctor heals your child, then it's the work of god. Why is the fixed car not the work of god? I believe that God gave me that talent of being able to fix cars (and all sort of mechanical, electrical, and electronic things.) I believe that God has provided opportunities for me to progress in my career, to a pretty nice place to work, and being sent for more training to learn to do my job even better. So yes, the car being fixed is the work of God. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jporter12 Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Who's John Clayton? I was raised Christian. Went to a Christian school. Even preached a few sermons in my younger days. I was being groomed for the ministry without one hint of reservation. I was immersed in my faith and was not wavering in my convictions. That's long gone and I'm a better person for it. It's funny how our journeys and experiences find their way into our philosophies as adults. You were raised a heathen, and I was raised a believer. Now, you're a believer and I'm destined for eternal damnation and suffering. Just funny when you think about it. Just out of curiosity, what was the turning point, the reason that you no longer believe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconRat Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) I have no answers. But sometimes wonder about what I see. Neighbor lady was given a maybe 10% of surviving complications from a diabetic shutdown. Prayer group came in. She was home in two days. Doctors really didn't know what to say, they didn't have any answers either. Studies done over in South Korea appear to show that group prayer given for groups of total strangers will alter future events. Again, no answers. But I get to say: sometimes, careful what you wish for... When pressed, I'll start pointing out Jungian theory/psychology of the collective unconscious. Edited October 10, 2014 by ReconRat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) I was also raised in a very Christian setting. I've read the bible cover to cover. I've studied multiple religions (out of curiousity not as a member). They're all alot more similar than most believers are willing to admit. The reasons they exist are mainly sociological. Their development all follow pretty much the exact same path in regard to how advanced the culture was that gave rise to each set of beliefs. I find the whole concept to be quite fascinating, but nothing has led me to believe in a higher power. The reason you are Christian is geography. You were born in a mainly Christian country. If you were born in India you'd be a Hindu. If you were born in Iran you'd be a Muslim. If you were born in Ireland you'd be drunk right now. If there were a higher power it would be alot less random than that. Edited October 10, 2014 by Tpoppa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Do people actually believe that there is a god that is taking time out from his day to heal him through some direct intervention? By working through the doctors? Like as in some kind of posession? Or letting the doctors toil knowing their ministrations are useless and they snappign his fingers and making him well? Does that mean that god chooses to watch other people die becuase not enough prayers were said? I doubt that there is anyone on earth that has an answer for your question. A short answer from me would be that a 'god/God/omnipotent being' exists and he/she/it has the power and ability to intervene in matters such as these--and may on some occasions--but chooses to let the world and the life created on it continue on whatever course has been chosen or set by circumstance. How and why evil coexists with good and why death/unfortunate occurrences happen equally to the wicked, the virtuous and the innocent is beyond human understanding. What I always find confusing is why there seems to be a nearly complete schism between those that espouse natural laws--scientific/physical/biological--and those who believe in supernatural laws, a belief in something greater than ourselves that cannot be proven by any method or scientific evidence currently in our knowledge base. Anyone in the scientific community will tell you without doubt that the universe is infinite, yet that concept is beyond our mind's ability to grasp based on our 3-dimensional reality. I don't know why it's so unbelievable that a power beyond our understanding and beyond proof by scientific knowledge could exist. I'm not one to ascribe a moral judgement about belief or non-belief in a creator/omnipotent being, but I find the signs of a greater power all around us in our world--the beauty, the harshness, the unfathomable, the simple, the complex. I also find myself a bit scared to admit that man and his knowledge is not the most powerful force in the universe. I think it requires a sense of child-like wonder to believe in something beyond human ken. That may be the thing that sticks in the mind of those who cannot bring themselves to believe in a god--an unwillingness to be open to and embrace the things that belonged to the realm of childhood. I guess that if I could characterize my position, I would say I choose to believe--not because I was taught, not because I fear, not because I am naive or ignorant--I believe because I wonder…. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snot Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) God test us, so ringing the bell for 10 yrs with no answer does not mean that the house is vacant. I am a believer, I know he can save and help us. I don't believe because it is how I was raised, I believe because he save me. Look at it this way if all the Christians are wrong so be it, we die and thats it. But if all the Christians are right about the end where will you stand?As for the OP, yes praying does help (you and them). Even if they die, it depends on what is best not just for you but for them, too. I prayed for my grandmother to stop suffering. I wanted her to heal, but it was not going to happen. The best way to get the answer is to read the bookJust my .02 Edited October 10, 2014 by snot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) What I always find confusing is why there seems to be a nearly complete schism between those that espouse natural laws--scientific/physical/biological--and those who believe in supernatural laws, The starting point of the schism you describe is the creation vs. evolution debate. Historically, there has been little if any middle ground in that discussion. You either believed on or the other. This is ground zero for science vs. theology. Recently I've heard some Christians soften their stance on this argument, saying perhaps God allowed evolution to happen. Not coincidentally, this "softening" seems to be occurring as overwhelming evidence for evolution is mounting. It's worth pointing out that nothing in the bible would seem to indicate that the word of God was hinting at evolution. Edited October 10, 2014 by Tpoppa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Look at it this way if all the Christians are wrong so be it, we die and thats it. But if all the Christians are right about the end where will you stand?So, should the basis of belief be a reward instead of a penalty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Butters Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 I doubt that there is anyone on earth that has an answer for your question. A short answer from me would be that a 'god/God/omnipotent being' exists and he/she/it has the power and ability to intervene in matters such as these--and may on some occasions--but chooses to let the world and the life created on it continue on whatever course has been chosen or set by circumstance. How and why evil coexists with good and why death/unfortunate occurrences happen equally to the wicked, the virtuous and the innocent is beyond human understanding. What I always find confusing is why there seems to be a nearly complete schism between those that espouse natural laws--scientific/physical/biological--and those who believe in supernatural laws, a belief in something greater than ourselves that cannot be proven by any method or scientific evidence currently in our knowledge base. Anyone in the scientific community will tell you without doubt that the universe is infinite, yet that concept is beyond our mind's ability to grasp based on our 3-dimensional reality. I don't know why it's so unbelievable that a power beyond our understanding and beyond proof by scientific knowledge could exist. I'm not one to ascribe a moral judgement about belief or non-belief in a creator/omnipotent being, but I find the signs of a greater power all around us in our world--the beauty, the harshness, the unfathomable, the simple, the complex. I also find myself a bit scared to admit that man and his knowledge is not the most powerful force in the universe. I think it requires a sense of child-like wonder to believe in something beyond human ken. That may be the thing that sticks in the mind of those who cannot bring themselves to believe in a god--an unwillingness to be open to and embrace the things that belonged to the realm of childhood. I guess that if I could characterize my position, I would say I choose to believe--not because I was taught, not because I fear, not because I am naive or ignorant--I believe because I wonder…. Couldnt have said it better. I believe, and don't care what anyone's opinion about it is. Nobody will change my mind. Believing in God isn't about everything being fair and good people never dying. I never understand that argument. Jesus himself died a horrible death. Scruit - your feigned ignorance in this thread is a little pathetic. You make a thread, post a bunch of hypothetical, unanswerable questions, and then pretend like you are curious or confused. I know you're intelligent enough to know that there are no answers for the questions you posted; that topic is subjective. Seems to me like you just got tired of seeing people post a bunch of stuff you believe is made up and came here to vent and rally support. That's fine though, but please, stop pretending you're here to actually ask questions. Judd - my belief is in line with yours. Sure, God may not be reaching down and curing people on a daily basis, but we don't exist as an accident. I believe everything was created by God - medicine, science, people, etc. Sure, that IV in your arm may be keeping you alive, but I believe in a bigger picture. Maybe the reason you're even alive to have that IV is because of divine intervention. Maybe the ambulance made it to your location with the help of God (avoiding accidents, etc). Or maybe it's none of that, and science really did cure you - but I believe without God we wouldn't have those doctors and medicines to heal people. I realize that on this website I'm part of the very small minority that isn't atheist. I'm ok with that. I don't judge anybody and I don't care if you share the same beliefs as me. I treat people based on how they treat me. I consider most of OR family - regardless of personal beliefs. I just find it a bit annoying that when these topics come up - it's always somebody slamming religion and trying to down on others for their beliefs by acting like modernized people would never believe in religion. You being atheist doesn't make you better than me - regardless how much you feel it may. I don't see many threads on here by religious people slamming on atheists, but we get plenty of the opposite. Guess that's what happens when you don't believe in a religion that teaches not to judge other people - jk Disclaimer: This post doesn't apply to everybody in this thread. I'm not trying to imply that we're not having an adult conversation here. Just commenting on this thread and on society in general. /flamesuit on 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snot Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 I know where I stand. Well, that's not how I meant it. Usually if someone wants to disprove something they learn about it. From my understanding everyone who has tried to disprove God or the bible became believers. My hope is that the statement make people a little curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 The reason you are Christian is geography. You were born in a mainly Christian country. If you were born in India you'd be a Hindu. If you were born in Iran you'd be a Muslim. If you were born in Ireland you'd be drunk right now. If there were a higher power it would be alot less random than that. Can someone, anyone who considers them self to be a believer give me a counter point on this one? I've honestly never heard a good response to this line of thinking. From my understanding everyone who has tried to disprove God or the bible became believers. I'd be an exception. There are many others Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snot Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Butters sorry for neg rep... my phone is acting strange and when I scrolled up i hit the red button..Tpoppa,The only answer I can give you is, my family (all of it) are Christian faith. Yes we grew up with it but at one point my family was Catholic (late 1800s converted). Some people change faith and some find it. The majority of believers are Christian its not an accident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Butters Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) Can someone, anyone who considers them self to be a believer give me a counter point on this one? I've honestly never heard a good response to this line of thinking. I'd be an exception. There are many others Statistically there are 29 million Christians in India. Not a huge number compared to the population, but it's still a large number. I don't believe it's random at all. Christianity didn't pop up over night. Jesus and the Apostles traveled and preached - the same that many churches do now-a-days. It's the same scenario. Many people have never even been exposed to Christianity due to their geography - but there are plenty who have converted after being taught by missionaries. Geography undoubtedly has a major impact on what people believe, that's impossible to prevent. That's why people do mission work - to spread the word to those areas where people aren't exposed to it. You aren't born into any religion. Funny side note - my uncle is from India and his family there are all Christians, including him. Edited October 10, 2014 by Steve Butters 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Tpoppa,The only answer I can give you is, my family (all of it) are Christian faith. Yes we grew up with it but at one point my family was Catholic (late 1800s converted). Some people change faith and some find it. The majority of believers are Christian its not an accident.Conversion is not a frequent occurrence. However, that is something I can respect because it takes conviction and can be quite difficult in some scenarios. My point is this. Let's say Christianity is the one true religion, but I happened to be born in India for example. There is literally less than a 3% chance I will believe in any form of Christianity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_India I've done nothing wrong, but there is very little chance of me having any meaningful exposure to Christianity. I may even have had a life altering experience that led me to search for spiritual answers, but all the local answers pointed me toward becoming a Hindu or perhaps a Muslim. Did the Christian God doom me with 97% certainty by allowing me to be born in India? Why was I not given the same chance to find the truth as someone born in a Christian country? I've never heard an answer to this that was consistent with Christian beliefs. (btw, not picking on Christians specifically, this is the same with most major religions). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) Many people have never even been exposed to Christianity due to their geography What happens to them after they die? You aren't born into any religion. Most would disagree with that comment. Edited October 10, 2014 by Tpoppa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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