Can i get some advice on improving braking and corner entry speeds?

[cOoTeR]

I've recently started racing supermoto in a local series out here in Arizona. I'm currently running 3rd in the points but that's only because I'm one of the few guys that will show up when it's raining. I still come in last but I get tons of points just for completing the race lol. But being Arizona hopefully we won't have too many more wet races. I need to get faster to be more competitive so that i can still get more points when we have a full grid. The areas I think I have the most room for improvement are braking later and entering the corner at a faster speed. 

When I take my ZX10-R to the track I don't have much trouble braking later and getting on the brakes hard. The problem I have in that bike is I often slow down too much and enter the corner slower than I should.  

On my supermoto (crf450x with a big brake kit and race slicks) I find myself getting on the brakes way to soon before the corner, not using the brakes as aggressively as they can be used (using more time and distance to slow down than needed) and then on top of that I'm slowing down way too much for the corners. 

I need to build my confidence in braking closer to the turn, braking harder and increasing my confidence in corner speed especially at corner entry. I've asked some of the faster guys at the track and they've

[jschaf]

Increasingly closer braking & turn in markers would work I think.

[ludwb675]

These are just my opinions. Seemed to work for me. I don't know your skill level and you got cut off at the bottom. 

If you are at a track day, try braking sooner with more control and better judge your entry speed. Try to get better at going fast through the turn before you worry about braking hard into it. 

Are you using brake markers? Find a marker and start braking at it consistently. If you are too slow into the turn, find a new marker a few feet later. Repeat as needed until you are turning in while still lightly braking.

Again, take with a grain of salt. 

Edited March 1, 2017 by ludwb675

[cOoTeR]

Sorry about it getting cut off at the end I don't know what happened. But what I was saying was when I ask the faster guys they just tell me to brake later. I find myself rolling off the throttle earlier as I chicken out heading into the corner. 

I'll have to go out and find something to use as references for brake markers. I've just been either using the skid marks on the track or just kind of guess where to get on the brakes. The tracks we run on are kart tracks and most have "drift" days so skid marks are all over the place. 

Thanks guys. 

[blue03636]

One thing to help with corner entry is to ensure you aren't starting at a turn in point right up until you turn. Once you see your point start looking at the apex. This will help eliminate that feeling of going to fast.

[TimTheAzn]

I was just getting comfortable figuring out my braking zones on the 675... and then I sold it . Craig is right, using your eyes properly helps immensely because it helps eliminate the sense of speed which helps alleviate the feeling of oh shit I'm going too fast I need to brake more.

 

Ken Hill has a few podcasts talking about brakes and they are definitely worth a listen.

 

[Tonik]

9 hours ago, cOoTeR said:

 I find myself rolling off the throttle earlier as I chicken out heading into the corner. 

I am no track expert, but this sounds like you need more laps to build more confidence.  And stop trying to go faster, that will make you slower.  Just crank some laps and enjoy.

 

[Jester_]

Tim nailed it with the Ken Hill podcasts. That information is invaluable and will change how you think about riding.

Don't just jump on the brakes with 70% brake pressure. Load up the first 5% to get some load in the front end and modulate the brake to get yourself slowed at the point of the corner where you want your bike to have direction change and you can get on the throttle. You already modulate the brake to slow yourself at a stop sign in your car, you don't just slam on the brake and hold it there until you stop, you hit the brake and then modulate your brake pressure until you come to a stop. 

A good exit is the product of a good entry. 

[TimTheAzn]

A good exit and good corner speed are a product of a good entry. 

I try to stay conscious of having the first 5% of any input wether it be brake or throttle be smooth and controlled. It will do what Dan said, it will load the suspension correctly, let the bike do what it needs to do. After that first 5%, I can get a little more aggressive but always smooth, and don't over do it on the aggressiveness part. Abrupt inputs are a no no. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast ??.

I consider 1% braking just getting the brake pads touching the brake rotor, if that gives you an idea of "percentages".

Edited March 1, 2017 by TimTheAzn

[blue03636]

6 hours ago, TimTheAzn said:

I was just getting comfortable figuring out my braking zones on the 675... and then I sold it . Craig is right, using your eyes properly helps immensely because it helps eliminate the sense of speed which helps alleviate the feeling of oh shit I'm going too fast I need to brake more.

 

Ken Hill has a few podcasts talking about brakes and they are definitely worth a listen.

 

Just started listening to these, #38 might be of huge help for this topic.

[TimTheAzn]

Those podcasts have made me re-think some things. Cant wait for the season to start so I can start putting some of these techniques and concepts into my riding. In the process of purchasing Dan's old lap timer so I can set some baselines for myself.

[i-Zapp]

One of the most valuable things I've read (Lee Parks?) for improving my lap times was the concept discussed above, which is don't get too wound up about late-braking, but instead focus on building on your entry speed. Then as you build your confidence with your entry and corner speed your braking point will likely drift deeper and deeper into the corner.

I did a track school at CSS a couple years ago and they actually forbid the use of brakes during much of the school. As frustrating as it was, it allowed me the mental freedom to work on technique and building up to the "right" entry speed.

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?/topic/310-the-fine-art-of-braking/

[i-Zapp]

To further illustrate the point, out-braking the other guy by even 50' only gets you whopping tenth of second in lap time (goofing around in Excel I built this simple simulation of the back straight going into turn 6 at Mid-Ohio) ...

 

The BETTER method would be too ease off the brakes a bit (note only 0.9 G's of braking), and instead build your corner speed up by another 5 mph, and guess what you picked up almost a half second (-0.4sec) versus the other guy.

 

[blue03636]

Ok, after almost getting through all of the podcasts above, #3 is 100% for you.

[cOoTeR]

Thanks guys. 

[OSUYZFR1]

On 3/1/2017 at 3:49 PM, i-Zapp said:

To further illustrate the point, out-braking the other guy by even 50' only gets you whopping tenth of second in lap time (goofing around in Excel I built this simple simulation of the back straight going into turn 6 at Mid-Ohio) ...

 

The BETTER method would be too ease off the brakes a bit (note only 0.9 G's of braking), and instead build your corner speed up by another 5 mph, and guess what you picked up almost a half second (-0.4sec) versus the other guy.

 

I think this oversimplifies what happens in reality. I've got aim solo data that shows me getting outbraked at the end of the backstraight and losing just under 1 sec in just that part of the track. I can see where both of us hit the brakes and it's within 50 ft. I also ran a faster laptime 1.33.1 compared to 1.34.5. When i first got the other rider's data I was losing 1.4 seconds a lap just at the end of the back straight comparing a 1.35.xx laptime to his. I've been working on braking later but still have lots of time to makeup. Seeing this data has opened my eyes on where it is the truly fast guys are making their times. 

[Jester_]

It might not really be braking later as much as it is braking lighter for longer. 

[Tonik]

7 minutes ago, Jester_ said:

It might not really be braking later as much as it is braking lighter for longer. 

You know way more about the track than I do, so correct me if I am an idiot.

Isn't most track corner braking about slowly braking until you reach the slowest part of the corner...slow down gradually until you get just slow enough to make that part?

[OSUYZFR1]

13 minutes ago, Jester_ said:

It might not really be braking later as much as it is braking lighter for longer. 

Yeah, that's what is going on in my scenario and in reality translates to braking later since your not into the meat of your braking until later. I'll i'm trying to point out is saying you'll only gain a tenth is misleading. For me being good on the brakes is the most difficult piece to master and is where I'm leaving alot of time still. 

[Jester_]

2 hours ago, Tonik said:

You know way more about the track than I do, so correct me if I am an idiot.

Isn't most track corner braking about slowly braking until you reach the slowest part of the corner...slow down gradually until you get just slow enough to make that part?

I would say you don't want to just brake slowly to the slowest part of the corner, one is obviously going to be on the brakes very hard while upright and then trail off the brakes as you turn in, so the closer you get to that slowest point the less brake you want to use down to 1% ideally. 

 

This however is very easy to talk about and hard to do as most track day guys will brake while upright so in the instance above we would say that he needs to use more brake deeper into the corner which would move the initial brake marker up. 

 

I did, and I still have a difficult time with trail braking as I was told on the streets to never use brakes while turning. So it's a bad habit I started to try and break last year. 

 

I have also learned that as you use the brake on turn in you actually load the front and can have more grip as it loads that front tire and creates a larger contact patch. One of the things Ken hill says is that most of the low sides he sees is actually from an underloaded front end rather than using too much trail braking. 

[Jester_]

Seeing images like this make you realize how much more a front tire can do until you really start to get into higher lean angles. Corner entry with hard trail braking and finding direction is my #1 learning priority this year. 

[Tonik]

Got it sir, tyvm.

[Jester_]

51 minutes ago, Tonik said:

Got it sir, tyvm.

I know that was a confusing answer, but yes you were partly right that you want to be barely brushing off speed as you near the slowest point. 

 

I'm also not anywhere near the person who should be advising this kind of thing haha

[blue03636]

2 hours ago, Jester_ said:

Seeing images like this make you realize how much more a front tire can do until you really start to get into higher lean angles. Corner entry with hard trail braking and finding direction is my #1 learning priority this year. 

This is on my list once I get my bearings back.

[i-Zapp]

12 hours ago, Jester_ said:

I'm also not anywhere near the person who should be advising this kind of thing haha

i defer to the guy above running 1:30's at MidO!!  8>|