Qman Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 2 hours ago, smccrory said: Even still, to be fair and set expectations appropriately, nothing short of banning all access to guns, fertilizer, Rider trucks, planes, poisons, precursor materials and machetes is going to stop a determined murderer from taking a lot of people out before they’re killed. Imagine if this pilot had loaded explosives into a Cessna and initiated a (diverted) approach into the concert area? No guns are going to prevent that, short of a AAA battery perhaps. You forgot pressure cookers! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smccrory Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Qman said: You forgot pressure cookers! In my defense, the possible modalities used to murder others is quite large, and the perverted creativity of murderers extensive. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonik Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 How many mass shootings were there in Australia on the last 21 years? How many in the US in the last 21 years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimTheAzn Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 What is everyone that isnt Tony suggesting? More gun control? Criminals will be criminals and will get firearms the same ways they always have regardless of the rules in place for law-abiding citizens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
what Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tonik said: How many mass shootings were there in Australia on the last 21 years? How many in the US in the last 21 years? It's a culture problem in the US more than anything. There are a number of countries around the world who's gun ownership ratio is close or just as high as it is here and they don't have the same gun violence/mass shooting problems. Available healthcare, proper (required) firearm training, media not glorifying the horrific things people do, etc. No one thing is going to solve this issue as it's systemic and needs to be tackled as a whole. Edited October 5, 2017 by what Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimTheAzn Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 27 minutes ago, what said: It's a culture problem in the US more than anything.. We should stop publicizing all these violent acts in the news and only show the good. I think that'd take away a lot of motivation from a lot of people (the attention they get). But it seems like the masses only want to see the blood and gore on the news. Been like that for decades. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 (edited) 53 minutes ago, what said: It's a culture problem in the US more than anything. There are a number of countries around the world who's gun ownership ratio is close or just as high as it is here and they don't have the same gun violence/mass shooting problems. I tend to agree with this. My gut tells me that the deepening divide in political climate in our county is a contributing factor & is going to lead to more extreme type behavior. Unfortunately, I think the gun control argument is just going to deepen that divide even more. Every time the gun control debate gains momentum, the one thing you can count on is more guns will be produced and sold. For sake of argument, lets say all legal access to guns, or certain types of guns was banned (which seems to be what Tonik is thinking but lacks the balls to say). Those guns will still be available to those that choose to break the laws...just as heroin, cocaine, etc are available today. Law abiding citizens, however, would be the ones without access. I could leave my house right now and have heroin or cocaine in my hands by lunchtime. How would controlling access to guns be any different? Edited October 5, 2017 by Tpoppa 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qman Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 48 minutes ago, Tpoppa said: I could leave my house right now and have heroin or cocaine in my hands by lunchtime. But you can get taxpayer funded NARCAN, so shoot up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 Prohibition - We make alcohol illegal. Violent gangs get rich selling alcohol. Alcohol is widely available. Already overcrowded prisons get even more overcrowded. War on Drugs - We make drugs illegal. Violent gangs get rich selling drugs. Drugs are widely available. Already overcrowded prisons get even more overcrowded. Tell me how it would be any different if guns were made illegal? How would it be enforced? What would happen to the 300 million guns in the US today...many of which are untraceable? How would we prevent the flow of guns across our borders, perhaps build a wall to keep illegal things out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue03636 Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonik Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 3 hours ago, TimTheAzn said: What is everyone that isnt Tony suggesting? More gun control? Criminals will be criminals and will get firearms the same ways they always have regardless of the rules in place for law-abiding citizens. How many mass shootings have there been on Australia in the las 21 years. What has happened to the homicide rate in Australia on the last 21 years? The suicide rate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted October 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Tonik said: How many mass shootings were there in Australia on the last 21 years? How many in the US in the last 21 years? First of all, let's try to play nice, and start where we can agree: Everyone would like to eliminate mass shootings (or all shootings, if that's possible) from our future. We're simply disagreeing on how to accomplish that goal. Fair statement? Doing nothing is not acceptable, neither from a humanitarian perspective, nor from a political perspective. Framed as apathy or optimism, doing nothing is perhaps the most dangerous option for those who support the second amendment. Propose a solution that gun owners can live with. Be the reasonable side, and offer some kind of compromise, or be forever labeled as callous rednecks. The same needs to be true on the opposing side of the debate. Un-inventing the gun isn't a realistic "solution." Repealing the second amendment is highly improbable. So what compromises does that leave? My personal opinion on this is that the 2nd Amendment guarantees the right to own firearms, but not rapid-fire accessories like a bump-stock or a trigger crank. I'm sure there are gun enthusiasts who enjoy both, but I don't think 2A extends to such ACCESSORIES, because they're not firearms. The gun lobby should be leading the charge to prohibit the manufacture and sale of such items. Yes, criminals will still obtain or make them if they want to badly enough, but at least it will be mildly more difficult. I also support mental health evaluations and/or more in-depth background checks. I don't take great issue with a reasonable (30 days or fewer) waiting period on new firearm purchases to facilitate said evaluation. I believe someone else suggested that your MH evaluation be 'good' for a number of years, and renewable, like a carry permit. I don't have an issue with limiting the number of firearms a non-dealer can purchase in a given year. I'm sure there would be debate as to what that limit would be, but I've read reports that this shooter amassed 40 rifles in the span of a couple of years... That seems like it would have been a red flag, if it had been tracked. As for copying Australia, @Tonik I would theoretically support that idea IF the second amendment were somehow repealed. With that said, I don't think you can possibly scale-up Australia's policy to work effectively in the United States. If Australia's gun problem was a flaming piece of chicken someone left on the grill, America's gun problem is a full-blown house fire. The garden hose Australia used ain't gonna cut it for America. Some quick stats on Australia and the US: Australia's population: 24,700,000 USA population: 325,000,000 (the USA is 13 times more populous, but less than 1,000,000 more square mileage. Population density of Australia = 8.3 people per square mile, on average. Population density of the USA = 85.6 people per square mile, on average. As I'll calculate below, that density increases DRASTICALLY in U.S. cities, which we have many more of, and where the majority of American gun violence takes place) 5 largest Australian cities: Sydney: 5,000,000 Melbourne: 4,700,000 Brisbane: 2,400,000 Perth: 2,000,000 Adelaide: 1,300,000 5 largest cities in the USA: New York: 8,500,000 Los Angeles: 3,900,000 Chicago: 2,700,000 Houston: 2,300,000 Phoenix: 1,600,000 (and for good measure, I'll throw in some cities in Ohio for the sake of comparison: Columbus = 860,000; Cleveland = 385,000; Parma = 79,000; Youngstown = 65,000) ...and now we look at population DENSITY New York = 27,016 people per square mile Chicago = 11,868 people per square mile Los Angeles = 7,758 people per square mileCLEVELAND = 4,666 people per quare mile Sydney = 1,053 people per square mile. Melbourne = 4,593 people per square mile Brisbane = 385 people per square mile (i'm sick of pulling population and square mileage stats from the internet, but is this trend becoming clear?) Cleveland (fucking Cleveland), which is dropping city residents like you can hardly imagine, is more densely populated than the most densely populated major Australian city. So let's be realistic about implementing Australian gun policies in the United States. The Australian government bought-back some 600,000 guns from its citizens. There are an estimated 310,000,000 privately owned firearms in the United States. The scope of a program that emulates Australia's model would be immense, and ridiculously expensive. Edited October 5, 2017 by redkow97 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qman Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 36 minutes ago, Tonik said: How many mass shootings have there been on Australia in the las 21 years. What has happened to the homicide rate in Australia on the last 21 years? The suicide rate? Read a report not long ago that said the use of guns and homicides in Australia have dramatically risen in the last several years. Not gonna waste my time looking for it now tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimTheAzn Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Tonik said: How many mass shootings have there been on Australia in the las 21 years. What has happened to the homicide rate in Australia on the last 21 years? The suicide rate? You seem to know, why don't you drop some knowledge on us? I'm guessing the answers are as follows: less than America, went down compared to America, lower than America. I'm appalled at whats been happening in our country, I think most all of us can agree on that. I'm not opposed making it more difficult to get a firearm for law-abiding citizens within reason. What is your stance on this? What do you suggest happen to prevent tragedies like this from happening? I don't think you've stated that in here. Keep in mind: Criminals are going to be criminals. Suicidal people will still find ways to kill themselves. People are still going to commit homicides. The mentally ill are still going to be mentally ill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 No matter which side of the gun control debate you land on it's REALLY EASY to cherry pick the statistics that support your opinion. People get really emotional about certain numbers, but in reality the overall statistics do not point in any clear direction. Mexico has tougher gun regulations then Australia, yet gun violence is many times higher. Why? Is it a societal reason? Banning things in America hasn't always worked out so awesome. See prohibition and the war on drugs. Also, the Brady Bill was in effect for 10 years, it's impact to homicide rates was not statistically meaningful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 We have a shitty person, that was set on doing shitty things to an unsuspecting crowd of innocent people. Would this conversation be any different if instead of shooting, he drove that car with 50lbs of tannerite into that crowd? Any idea what that much tannerite would do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 2 hours ago, redkow97 said: My personal opinion on this is that the 2nd Amendment guarantees the right to own firearms, but not rapid-fire accessories like a bump-stock or a trigger crank. I'm sure there are gun enthusiasts who enjoy both, but I don't think 2A extends to such ACCESSORIES, because they're not firearms. The gun lobby should be leading the charge to prohibit the manufacture and sale of such items. http://www.news5cleveland.com/news/national/nra-calls-for-a-review-of-device-used-in-las-vegas-shooting-that-increases-a-gun-s-firepower "The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations," the statement reads. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Mac Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 On 10/4/2017 at 7:06 PM, jschaf said: WTF? 59+ people dead, 500 people injured.. We've got to catch this shit before it happens. What would you suggest.??? There is good and evil in the world. When there is less good, evil will quickly fill the void. Guaranteed. it's been going on since the beginning all over this wonderful earth. Outlawing Bump-stops will not do anything to prevent this. Nor will 55mph speed Limits. They kill that many in one month up in Chicago with very strict laws. http://heyjackass.com/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Mac Posted October 6, 2017 Report Share Posted October 6, 2017 (edited) Delete Edited October 6, 2017 by B-Mac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
durk Posted October 6, 2017 Report Share Posted October 6, 2017 12 hours ago, B-Mac said: Nor will 55mph speed Limits. I don't own a gun. You guys work that out however you need to. I don't have any answers for crazies. I don't know that more regulations is the solution. Just leave speeding regulations out of it. No need to start a war on fast motorcycles. ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted October 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2017 16 hours ago, Tpoppa said: http://www.news5cleveland.com/news/national/nra-calls-for-a-review-of-device-used-in-las-vegas-shooting-that-increases-a-gun-s-firepower "The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations," the statement reads. I saw that yesterday. I'm surprised and impressed. They should hire me to write their press releases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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