Need tech advice

[tnugent1986]

Ok, so I'm going to make one last attempt to figure out what is wrong with my bike before taking it to the shop to have them fix it. As of right now I pretty much have my bike completely stripped down. It will start.. once... and then needs a long period of rest(a few hours-day) before it starts again. I've eliminated the batterie, fuses, electric start, wiring harness. I just can't figure it out. It will push start every single time, but will only electronic start when it hasn't been started for a period of time, regardless if it's hot or not. When it's actually running I don't see any issues. Bike is fuel injected.

 

Bad starter? Bad plugs? Bad? Something else? I'm at a total loss. I really can't see it being a bad starter or a fuel issue. Could it possibly have to do with the stator? Rectifier? I'm just completely lost at this point and need a push in the right direction. It will run for hours with no issues though. Any advice would be appreciated, taking it to the shop is kind of a last resort type of deal for me, but will if I have to.

[Tpoppa]

Have you checked forums for your particular bike?

Ever had major repairs done to it before?

[motocat12]

push starting it really sounds like a starter or battery issue. does a jump pack help? You can clean carbon deposits off some starters. 

How to pop-start a motorcycle - RevZilla

 

https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/how-to-pop-start-a-motorcycle

1. Jan 17, 2018 - It doesn't work in all situations, nor does it fix all problems. Push-starting a motorcyclejust eliminates the need to use the starting system. Be sure, then .... Give it another shot if you're stillrolling at speed down a grade. If you're ...

[mello dude]

3 hours ago, tnugent1986 said:

Ok, so I'm going to make one last attempt to figure out what is wrong with my bike before taking it to the shop to have them fix it. As of right now I pretty much have my bike completely stripped down. It will start.. once... and then needs a long period of rest(a few hours-day) before it starts again. I've eliminated the batterie, fuses, electric start, wiring harness. I just can't figure it out. It will push start every single time, but will only electronic start when it hasn't been started for a period of time, regardless if it's hot or not. When it's actually running I don't see any issues. Bike is fuel injected.

 

Bad starter? Bad plugs? Bad? Something else? I'm at a total loss. I really can't see it being a bad starter or a fuel issue. Could it possibly have to do with the stator? Rectifier? I'm just completely lost at this point and need a push in the right direction. It will run for hours with no issues though. Any advice would be appreciated, taking it to the shop is kind of a last resort type of deal for me, but will if I have to.

Have you checked the charging system?  Wahts volts at idle? Volts at 5000 RPM --- Stator check, pull connector... stator side connector, AB/BC/BA resistance, AB/BC/BA  to ground, then AC volts on again AB/BC/BA - idle and 5000 rpms. See if you can do that.. Oh yeah.... Verify a good battery first under load. tested. and battery static volts?  

(I've fixed my share of Honda charging systems...) Noticing you have an '01 F4i... around then Honda was going cheap on charging components and the R/Rs were junk... 

Edited June 18, 2019 by mello dude

[tnugent1986]

5 hours ago, Tpoppa said:

Have you checked forums for your particular bike?

Ever had major repairs done to it before?

The only similar issues I could find had to do with cold starts and once a bike got hot it would die out. I tried the fix for this, but nothing. As far as starters go they would still crank, but not turn. I get absolutely nothing except for the head light going out and the fades dash when I hit the starter. Otherwise it fires up without an issue, not a single struggle, but then won't start again after turned off. I couldn't find anything at all about that. 

 

4 hours ago, motocat12 said:

push starting it really sounds like a starter or battery issue. does a jump pack help? You can clean carbon deposits off some starters. 

How to pop-start a motorcycle - RevZilla

 

https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/how-to-pop-start-a-motorcycle

1. Jan 17, 2018 - It doesn't work in all situations, nor does it fix all problems. Push-starting a motorcyclejust eliminates the need to use the starting system. Be sure, then .... Give it another shot if you're stillrolling at speed down a grade. If you're ...

The battery isn't an issue. I have killed it trying to start it though, but it charges back just fine and holds the charge. My first thought was the starter, but I'm really not thinking it is the starter, it looks to be good, but if I replace something out of a pure guess, that would probably be the first thing. I have not tried cleaning it, but if I rapidly turn the bike on and off it will work. It's not till really about the 3 minute mark of running till this issue starts. I tried to use that theory to eliminate the starter, but I'm not sure how effective that is?

 

2 hours ago, mello dude said:

Have you checked the charging system?  Wahts volts at idle? Volts at 5000 RPM --- Stator check, pull connector... stator side connector, AB/BC/BA resistance, AB/BC/BA  to ground, then AC volts on again AB/BC/BA - idle and 5000 rpms. See if you can do that.. Oh yeah.... Verify a good battery first under load. tested. and battery static volts?  

(I've fixed my share of Honda charging systems...) Noticing you have an '01 F4i... around then Honda was going cheap on charging components and the R/Rs were junk... 

I'll try that this weekend. This number will not be accurate, mainly because I only used a multimeter with the bike off after doing some reading. I was hitting 13.5ish, which should have been more than capable of starting the bike and that was after multiple attempt starts without letting it hit full capacity again(hence it may have read higher on a full charge) but still won't start regardless if it had a full charge or not. 

 

I'll try to take a video of what it is doing, it may be better than me just trying to explain it.

[tnugent1986]

 4.5 min of the bike starting every single time without a hitch. Can't be the battery or starter in my opinion. Once the next video uploads I'll submit it. It was taken less than a minute after this one.

 

 

[tnugent1986]

 

The ONLY thing missed in this video was that I put the kick stand up/stood the bike up(didn't hop on it), shut it off and tried to turn it back on before actually taking it for a spin and then nothing, it would not start.

[tnugent1986]

I can't attempt to push start it where I live, it's way too flat. It will push start every single time if i pop the clutch and will not die on me. Many times even 4-10h after this issue occurs it will not start either(I've had to push start it after work a few times after thinking I had the issue solved) but after a day of rest, this whole video will repeat itself over and over again every single time like clockwork. I just don't know where else to look. I mean I could be missing something with the starter, but even after the bike goes down to "room temperature" it doesn't matter, only very long periods of time seem to make a difference in whether it will start again or not. And then back to unlimited starts for a little bit.

[mello dude]

Check the wiring at the starter solenoid and relay. It could be burnt or have bad connectors.

Other than that, I 'm kinda at the gotta be there stage and go to town a with a multimeter.....you have something that breaks conductivity when it warms up.

Edited June 18, 2019 by mello dude

[mello dude]

Adding to above... a very common problem with Honda''s starter solenoids is melting connectors.... 

Edited June 18, 2019 by mello dude

[motocat12]

heat raises resistance. Try tapping the starter and solenoid with a stick to see if they break loose. Other thought is if vibrations could be doing something like foaming the battery's fluid. is it acid or gel?  you're in neutral in the first video and in gear in the next right? neuteal or clutch switch?

[tnugent1986]

3 hours ago, motocat12 said:

heat raises resistance. Try tapping the starter and solenoid with a stick to see if they break loose. Other thought is if vibrations could be doing something like foaming the battery's fluid. is it acid or gel?  you're in neutral in the first video and in gear in the next right? neuteal or clutch switch?

I never took it out of neutral or hit the clutch in the video, but that doesn't seem to effect anything. It just looks like it isn't in neutral, but it is. I do mention in the video that the neutral light does have issues when it started flickering. Sometimes it doesn't even come on at all, but will start regardless if the light is on. I'm thinking that is a separate display issue.

 

5 hours ago, mello dude said:

Adding to above... a very common problem with Honda''s starter solenoids is melting connectors.... 

I'll check those again, maybe I missed something when checking all of the wiring the first time.

[2talltim]

Not sure if you have one but thought i'd drop this here. 

 

http://www.stephygee.com/f4imanual.zip

[Bubba]

Have you checked the contacts in the start switch at the bars?  No clue as to how Hondas work, but the start switch is s known weak spot in Suzukis.  Take it apart, clean the contacts.  You mention you've done a wire loom check, but did you also check the main ground points at the frame for corrosion?

[2talltim]

Grounds would be my first thought.

[durk]

If you’re neutral light is flickering that could be part of the problem not a separate issue. If the bike thinks it’s in gear it won’t turn over unless you pull the clutch. You also mentioned when you had the kickstand up you had your issue. What about the kickstand switch/sensor? I know if my stand is down and the bike is in gear it won’t turn over even if the clutch is pulled. Next time it won’t turn over pull the clutch in and be sure your stand is up and see if it won’t fire. I think it might be the neutral switch/sensor. 

[tnugent1986]

3 hours ago, durk said:

If you’re neutral light is flickering that could be part of the problem not a separate issue. If the bike thinks it’s in gear it won’t turn over unless you pull the clutch. You also mentioned when you had the kickstand up you had your issue. What about the kickstand switch/sensor? I know if my stand is down and the bike is in gear it won’t turn over even if the clutch is pulled. Next time it won’t turn over pull the clutch in and be sure your stand is up and see if it won’t fire. I think it might be the neutral switch/sensor. 

It won't start in gear even with the clutch pulled? Kick stand sensor was one of my very first thoughts, but that checked out just fine. Clutch in doesn't do anything regardless, which is why I didn't bother with it last night. It will start with the neutral light off though and the clutch not pulled in. That part just seems to work as it pleases. I might try removing the kick stand sensor though, just to 100% eliminate that possiblity.

[tnugent1986]

If it had a bad neutral switch it should work with the clutch pulled regardless, correct or no?

[tnugent1986]

4 hours ago, Bubba said:

Have you checked the contacts in the start switch at the bars?  No clue as to how Hondas work, but the start switch is s known weak spot in Suzukis.  Take it apart, clean the contacts.  You mention you've done a wire loom check, but did you also check the main ground points at the frame for corrosion?

I did not pay attention to the grounds, I just looked for any frayed, cut or burnt wires.

[Tpoppa]

19 minutes ago, tnugent1986 said:

If it had a bad neutral switch it should work with the clutch pulled regardless, correct or no?

Not necessarily.  If the neutral switch is failing or the light flickering, then I would start there.  You can probably bypass the switch as a test.

[durk]

1 hour ago, tnugent1986 said:

If it had a bad neutral switch it should work with the clutch pulled regardless, correct or no?

I’m not 100% sure, but again if the bike thinks it’s in gear the clutch will need pulled and side stand up. That would be my experiment. I think TPoppa gave some good advice as well. I would be focusing on the neutral switch not the stand switch if it were in my garage. 

Edited June 18, 2019 by durk

[max power]

Do you keep it on a tender?  My guess would be bad cell in battery.

Does it start if you pull cables off battery and jump with a known good battery?

just had this problem with a truck I got cheap.  Wouldn’t turn over at all until I pulled the cables off the battery that was bad and jumped directly.  

[Pauly]

You need to reset your baseline test. From now on, only attempt to start it with the side stand retracted (that means "up") and the clutch lever depressed (that means "pulled"). 

This will help narrow things down to a manageable amount of gremlins. 

[ReconRat]

The starter circuit is separate from the ignition circuit. Different jobs. Meaning that if the starter turns when both cold and hot, it's eliminated as an issue. The interrupt devices won't let the starter even turn, so that would eliminate side stand, clutch switch, tip switch, and maybe neutral switch. Not sure about the neutral switch without checking a schematic. I've seen lots of variation in how those are designed to work. In ignition circuits that don't work when hot, I'd look for corrosion in the connectors, and suspect the rectifier. Comments are correct in saying that some modern motorcycle rectifiers are often cheap and unreliable. You should be able to find a voltage drop when hot, compared to cold, if there's corrosion in the ignition circuits. Both primary and secondary. Both need to be inspect, repair/replace. Check the frame/engine ground as well for resistance. Common failure point.

Rectifiers are kinda hard to test. Or even find instructions how to. I'd check through the ignition primary and secondary and then buy a new rectifier...

I once did this and bought the rectifier, and then realized my main fuse was really hot. Found the problem was only a light film of corrosion on the copper connectors in the fuse holder. It would heat up, sometimes wouldn't start and keep blowing the main fuse when it felt like it. Everybody forgets to check the fuse and fuse box. I even bought a fuse box, but sandpaper fixed the old one.

edit: kill switch is also a common failure point. But if I remember right, some are ignition circuit, and some are starter circuit. Schematic would tell which it is.

 

 

Edited June 19, 2019 by ReconRat

[tnugent1986]

Fuses are good, no corrosion anywhere. I'm almost certain it's the neutral switch, but I will verify that tomorrow. Unfortunately I haven't had much time to mess with it, but I will try bypassing the neutral switch and hopefully that works. If not I will hook up a new battery and then go on from there in order from easiest to more complex solutions that everyone has provided.

 

I'll throw this video up of why I'm almost positive it is the neutral switch since I'm not 100% but that's a quick and easy thing to figure out. I'll know tomorrow for sure when I have all day to either work on it or actually ride if I get it fixed.

 

I really appreciate all of the advice guys.