Guest Tony_K Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 Very simple question: What happens when you mix R12 and R134a? Don't answer if you haven't actually tried it. Thanks, Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurkvinny Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 I haven't tried it because it's a dumb thing to try. It will raise the system's pressure, putting extra strain on the compressor. Also, R134a does not play well with mineral oil. R134a uses a different type of oil. Your A/C will still work. For a short while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Total Sign Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 Need R12? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supldys Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 if you like for things not to break, then dont mix them. the oils and the refrigerant wont actually mix so it causes all kinds of bad pressure changes and such, plus r134a works at a higher pressure than r12. you'd be lucky if you came away with just a leak from a blown seal tongue.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye1647545503 Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 if you are trying to convert it your self harbor freight sells a vac pump for like 9.99 Get one and use it first then start with a clean empty system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tony_K Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 So none of you actually know. I've heard your old wives' tales before. Nurkvinny - The system's pressure depends entirely on how much refrigerant you put in. More refrig = higher pressure; less refrig = lower pressure. It's that simple. The refrigerant itself is not going to automatically make your system run at a higher pressure. 134a works best at about 230psi on a day like today. Older AC systems work just fine at that pressure, and can handle much higher. Been doing it for years. Don't have to change anything. Geo - I very seriously doubt it would have any kind of significant pressure *changes* as you describe. Even if two substances don't mix chemically, they will still mix physically just from being pumped through the system. If one is heavier/more resistant to flow, then I could see what you're saying being possible, but they would still have to not comingle and remain entirely separate from each other in large enough quantities inside the system. It sounds to me like you heard that somewhere but don't actually know from experience. Both of you are giving old mythical arguments that the industry used to discurage putting 134a in older cars so they could sell off old R12 at $30+/lb. With your talk about pressure, you are answering my *mixing* question with an old *retrofitting* myth. Hence why I said don't post if you haven't tried it. I would like some actual chemical/physical information on the refrigerants and oils, or actual experiments. Anyone out there actually done it? What was the result? High Risk - I'll buy new (not recycled) R12 for $6/lb. I don't know what market price is, but that's all it's worth to me. Buckeye - thanks for the suggestion. I somehow don't trust a $10 vacuum pump, though. I want to vacuum the system and then see if it will hold 30 lbs of vacuum overnight, and I have a friend I usually just borrow the equipment from, but I won't see him for a while, and it's getting hot outside . . . So, one more time, has anyone actualy mixed R12 and R134a????? Thanks, Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurkvinny Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 Wives' tales eh? Not hardly. If you are so fast to discredit everyone else's replies, then go research this topic yourself. You only want replies from people that have tried it; I sincerely hope no one on here has used their vehicle as a guinea pig for this type of experiment. You seem to think this was all some industry plot to jack up the price of R12. As far as your pressure comments - the whole it's as simple as that - nope, the 2 refrigerants do not react exactly the same. Again, go do your own research. Or better yet, throw the R134a into your system, and get back to us after a few months. ASE certification != mythical arguments. EDIT - http://www.delanet.com/~pparish/pt-table.htm [ 12. July 2004, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: NurkVinny ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verse Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 Just retrofit it. It's not expensive, takes about 1-3 hour(s)to do dependant on your ablities. Not very difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye1647545503 Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 Originally posted by Jon: Just retrofit it. It's not expensive, takes about 1-3 hour(s)to do dependant on your ablities. Not very difficult.that is what I was trying to tell him graemlins/thumb.gif Tony what is the worst thing a 10 doller vac pump will do if it gos bad? not pull a vacume and that is it. If that happens take it back to them and exchange it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awfulcanawful Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 I have never tried it so I must be a dumbass. But the oils are different in the two and the 134 is likely to eat the seals out of your compressor. But I have never tried it just read it in a book. Not a magazine... a book. take it for what its worth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitrousbird Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 I'm about to try converting my roomate's Lumina to R134a. A/C doesn't work, most likely needs charged. It is his beater, so putting any real money into it = bad idea. So for $6 he bought the conversion kit. I had him buy 2 cans of R134A w/ stopleak, and a can of oil. I've got the hoses w/ gauge required to do it....we'll see if it works. I'll make sure to drain any R12 if there is any left in the system. But we are going to do it lazy-man's way; if it doesn't work, it doesn't work....he'll only be out a few bucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave1647545494 Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 its the not the refrigerants that are in compatible its the oils. are you following me you will notice nothing righ taway but over time it starts to eat up your rubber hoses cuases all kinds of nasty problems. 134a also works at higher pressures and has smaller molecules than r12 this mean when you put 134a in a 12 system it tends to leak off over time. I recomend replacing all the rubber lines and physically draining the oil from the compressor if you decide to do this at the ver least they make a conversion oil that is compatible with 134a and 12 mixing refrigerants that work at different pressures is stupid. yes I understand that the 12 22 stuff can go high pressure but that is in home AC and freezers. this is kinda rambly but your getting the point if your going to retrofit do it right if you want to use 12 just makes sure it doesn't leak cuase its expensive even at 6 bucks a pound it costs more than 134a. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supldys Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 the reason why r12 is expensive is not a plot to steal you of money. Its simply supply and demand, there is no demand, and so there is no supply. r134a may be bad for the environment, but r12 is even worse, so they dont want you using it. Somebody was telling me that the computer duster cans is basically the same stuff as r134a, thats why when you turn it upside down a very cold liquid comes out, dont know how true that is but it gives you an idea of how abundunt and how more trusted the 134a is. the r12 is colder stuff though smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillbot Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 Originally posted by GAS,GRASS,OR ASS: its the not the refrigerants that are in compatible its the oils. +1 The oils are not compatible and can cause sludge or pluggage. If there is a minimal amount of old oil, there shouldn't be a problem though. I know alot of people that have mixed them w/o issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desperado Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 Bwahahahahaha, OK, now that we have all that out of the way. Yes, I did it on the cheap, split the difference on the low side and put 134a in with R-12. The compressor lasted about 2 weeks and locked up tight. There is something with the 134 and the oil, or the mixing of the two oils, that broke the oil down. I was told that the 134 will kill the mineral oil viscosity, but whatever happened it was bad. As far as R-12 being expensive, and these bullshit numbers that I see you all spouting, $30+ a pound right now, and if you are caught with it without a license to have the stuff, you would be better off with 10 pounds of coke and a bale of weed, cuz the drug charges are less than having R-12. As far as it being a scam, or some shit that makes R-12 so expensive, it is, but its alot bigger than you will ever understand. Here's the short version, invistigate if you want. 1195 the patent ran out on Freon, or more importantly, cloroflurocarbon (sp) based chemicals. This was owned by DuPont, they quickly paid for a bunch of research to prove that freon was causing the hole in to ozone layer to grow, a few B rated movies and some well rehearsed speeches by some scientific terrorists, that all screamed louder than Chicken Little that the sky was falling and we were all fuckin doomed. And the shit became the second MOST controled substance in the USA, second to plutonium. Even the possesion of non weapons grade Uranium would have not carried as big a fine or as much jail time. DuPont went quickly to work and created 134a that was a direct replacement for R-12 that did not contain the ozone eating chemical. To add insult, it has been 14 years, no one has mentioned the hole in the ozone layer any more, it's still there, it gets bigger and smaller as time passes, and its is been found that it responds to the sun spot cycle, more spots, smaller hole, less spots bigger hole. It has also been found that the hole is about ten thousand years old or older, so we didn't put it there. And the biggest kick in the teeth, R-22, which also contains ozone depleting material is now back on the Autozone store shelves, labeled as ozone depleting and no longer requires a license to buy. WTF????? Off the rant. I did it, it will work long enough to get it to blow cold to sell it. If you are keeping it. Don't bother, unless you want to replace the compressor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black ITR Guy Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Originally posted by desperado: if you are caught with it without a license to have the stuff, you would be better off with 10 pounds of coke and a bale of weed, cuz the drug charges are less than having R-12.hmmmm thats the kind of shit you need to know who cares about mixing this stuff......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsm_sleeper Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 This may help: http:// http://yarchive.net/ac/r134a_conversions.html[/url] EDIT: Better link [ 13. July 2004, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: dsmsleeper ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tony_K Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Originally posted by desperado: Yes, I did it on the cheap, split the difference on the low side and put 134a in with R-12. The compressor lasted about 2 weeks and locked up tight . . . . I did it, it will work long enough to get it to blow cold to sell it. If you are keeping it. Don't bother, unless you want to replace the compressor. Desperado - THANK YOU! That's the answer I was looking for. I'll sweat for a couple of weeks until I can get to vacuum it first. -Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillbot Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 do a search for Freeze 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Total Sign Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 As far as R-12 being expensive, and these bullshit numbers that I see you all spouting, $30+ a pound right now, and if you are caught with it without a license to have the stuff, you would be better off with 10 pounds of coke and a bale of weed, cuz the drug charges are less than having R-12. Bahamas- 30lb is 7$ And I know nothing about having none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tractor Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Maybe your compressor failed because your system was running low on lube already and the damage was done. My dad just put R-134a into R-12 system about 6 months ago and also we have a van that had the same thing done to it with no bad things happening. It may not be good for it, but its not that expensive and hell compressors are cheap at the junkyard anyway. Just buy a conversion kit from autozone or my favorite advance auto parts and go for it. Evan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave1647545494 Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Originally posted by Tony K: Desperado - THANK YOU! That's the answer I was looking for. I'll sweat for a couple of weeks until I can get to vacuum it first. -Tony I have a vacum pump if you'd like to use it sometime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHIEF Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Hey Tony K here's your answer (if you haven't found it, I just read some of your posts ) If you mix the 2 (let's say 50/50 or whatever) then your ac will work for a short time, and then you will burn your compressor up. But MOST people don't do this, including myself so I don't have any HANDS ON experience because I have common sense. Oh...and compressors are generally expensive. Cheerio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tony_K Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Originally posted by GAS,GRASS,OR ASS: I have a vacum pump if you'd like to use it sometime How about some time next week? I would greatly appreciate it. PM me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berto Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 not trying to be a dick but if you are borrowing his tools then why should he pm you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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