????MILITARY DRAFT LOOMING????

[AngryBMW]

Brandon, I think reading comprehension owns you.

 

If I said that because my dad served, I am no longer obligated, then I didnt mean it that way. Again, I probably wont enlist (short of WWIII), but if I were to be called into duty I would never tuck my tail between my legs and flee. That is a pussy way out, and I wouldn't be involved.

 

Anyways, whose ready for the track? smile.gif

-Marc

[iwishiwascool]

Originally posted by MadMalibu:

Brandon, I think history comprehension owns you.

fixed.

 

Its really hard to argue with someone who is missing key concepts.

 

Tammy Faye Baker, John Ashcroft ≠ All christians

Extremists ≠ All Muslims.

 

Even the conservative right that you appear to be trying to represent understands a number of the points that you seem to be ignorant to. Open your mind, realize that people cannot be categorized as easily as you think (Liberals/muslims) and you will see that this issue is far more complex than your, frankly, remedial understanding of it.

 

Thats my part, my 42¢ wore out its welcome many posts ago.

[Guest Ranger_Man]

i am amazed and awe struck that there is even an argument over this.

 

<font size=18>THERE WILL BE NO DRAFT</font size>

 

end of discussion, period

[iwishiwascool]

the draft part of the convo ended a while ago dude.

[Putty]

Friend of mine got drafted...He leaves Friday for Iraq....Sucks...He's has two young kids and a wife that does not work.

[SupraGlue]

Now that we are changing topics, Ken and Tina, riddle me this:

 

Ask 100 average Arab muslims in the Middle East "Is Osama Bin Laden a good man, or a bad man?"

 

Now, ask 100 average Arab Christians in the Middle East the same question.

 

Same culture, same econmics, same education, and I assure you, two very, very different answers.

 

Now here is your riddle -- why the difference in viewpoints?

 

graemlins/popcorn.gif

 

(Hint: OBL is not an Arab nationalist or an econmic revolutionary, so throw that western interpretation out the window.)

[iwishiwascool]

power worship.

[iwishiwascool]

ok, I can do better than that.

 

In the same way that Americans rallied behind Bush as a pillar of strength against the perceived emotionless, irrational, monsters to the East; Osama has capitalized on the fears of the Muslim proletariat. His propaganda paints the image of religous zellots attempting to impose western values on their holy land, occupying their holy grounds, disrespecting their culture. Most importantly, leveraging the biased, unwavering support of Isreal despite the atrocities. Add a few dead relatives to the mix and you have a people that are easily persuaded to believe that the US is the imperialistic monster set on squelching the religion.

 

My question to you:

 

After this lil 2 week max - "shock and awe" campaign turned into a multi year - "sit and wait to see where they attack next"... do you still think hitting Iraq was the best course of action in "The War on Terror".

[SupraGlue]

Emotionless,irrational monster is a pretty good word to describe the 9/11 hijackers like Atta. Good call. graemlins/thumb.gif

 

If the war in Iraq has had one positive effect on the war on terror, it's that radicals have been drawn there to attack our troops, which is at least an honest war now on their part, and gives us some targets. But I do think that other avenues would have been more productive. Like invading Saudi Arabia instead.

 

Now, back to the topic beforehand. If there is widespread sympathy and support amongst Arab muslims for OBL and Al-Qaida, but there is not such support amongst Arab non-muslims, then clearly his appeal is religious. If a large number of the adherents of a particular religion find unprovoked, deliberate mass murder of civilians to be a holy thing, then one must wonder what is wrong with that religion and the way it is being taught and spread.

 

Of course, that doesn't fit with the "blame Americans first" ideology, but as someone who has actually lived in the Middle East, I can tell you that the culture of Islam is quite a double-edged sword. As individuals, muslims can be some of the most generous and gracious people you will ever meet. As a group, they can be some of the most bigoted and hateful when whipped up by manipulative "leaders" like OBL.

 

(Yes, amazing as that may sound, the adjectives "bigoted" and "hateful" can be used to describe non-Caucasians, non-Americans, non-Christians and non-Republicans. Take some time to get over the shock. tongue.gif )

 

In Egypt, for example, there has been a long history of abuse of the Christian minority by the muslim majority. Just in this century alone, church burnings, abductions, lynchings, beatings and other violence that strongly resembles the old Segregationist South have been common activites by muslim radicals. That is why most Christians who have the education and the means to leave Egypt do so as quickly as they can.

 

The sum of my point is this -- in the Middle East, vast numbers of Arab muslims DO in fact hate the west and hate non-muslims. Their hatred stems from religious bigotry and not from nationalism or economic despair. It is driven by a religious belief that stems from their own writings that non-muslims are enemies of their interpretation of God. It is not a minority view of a handful of people, but it is instead more widely held, and it is VERY DANGEROUS.

 

Westerners who do not recognize the depth of what we are facing are being naive. Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak warned before the Iraq war of "a thousand Bin Laden's" that would emerge. He knows that the region is a powderkeg, and that Islamic fundamentalism is what fuels it.

 

It may be years before we know if the Iraq war brought more stability or less. A true democracy in the Middle East will be interesting, and a successful Iraq could be the catalyst for positive change throughout the region. If it fails, things will get a whole lot worse before they get better.

[Trouble Maker]

Originally posted by Inspeckta:

Friend of mine got drafted...

No he didn't.

[iwishiwascool]

Originally posted by My name... is Neo:

No he didn't.

I was going to point that out, but just shook my head instead.

 

Originally posted by Mark: Im more informed than you

I have not lived in the Mid-east.

I have not read the Koran.

I’ve only known westernized Muslims.

I accept that my own views are inevitably skewed.

 

Being that you tend to be more moderately right and I tend to be more moderately left, Its hard to disagree with your point.

 

Regardless of whether the reasons for entering this quagmire were just or not, there is a heap of trouble on the horizon. Bush's unilateral support for Sharon's "Peace" deal isnt exactly helping our Muslim PR.

 

I don’t think we will find success in violently imposing democracy on a people who, even still, wont stand up and fight for it as formerly communist state citizens did in the 80s. Despite Bush's claims the the insurgents are a minority, when Sunni's and Shiites stand side by side in defiance, I tend to think otherwise. The resistance is growing stronger and the US would make martyrs out of rebel rousers.

 

I cannot imagine a day that sees a free, united, lawful Iraq after the puppet masters hand is pulled out. At this point, the only successful option I see is an international unanimous support in putting Iraq on the right track. Unfortunately, the only way I see that happening is if the USofA admitted it fucked up in underestimating the magnitude of Nation Building, and asked for a UN response. If anyone could do it Colon could, but he would never be granted permission... though we both know he's already written the UN address.

 

Its hard to picture an end to this. Just as I’m sure it was hard to imagine an end to the cold war.

[Akula]

I do not fear a draft, if you are in the reserves and get called up you cannot cry about it, they tell you (several times) that you are in the reserves. When I got out in 1998 I went into the Naval reserves and they told me that I could be called up at any time so I know what I say. I have since been fully discharged (8 year commitment) so I don't have to worry. Plus Submarines aren't really all that involved with the war on terror, especially SSBNs.

[Guest Elinar Longsight]

Originally posted by iwishiwascool:

I was going to point that out, but just shook my head instead.

 

I have not lived in the Mid-east.

I have not read the Koran.

I’ve only known westernized Muslims.

I accept that my own views are inevitably skewed.

 

I have lived in the Middle East.

I have read the Koran and was raised by a Hardcore Muslim

I have known all kinds of Muslims

 

But none of that matters because Mark doesn't think he could be biased in his views. So I am not going to argue with a person who cannot accept the fact that he may or may not be biased in his views, because I accept the fact that its his opinion, but to argue would be like graemlins/doh.gif

 

[ 15. April 2004, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Elinar Longsight ]

[Lustalbert]

to bad there isnt a draft. Id love to get some of those whiny fucks under me so i can educate them a little bit.

If nothing else, ill make em turn over all the stones in my paking lot for pissing me off.

[Brandon]

Originally posted by iwishiwascool:

fixed.

 

Its really hard to argue with someone who is missing key concepts.

 

Tammy Faye Baker, John Ashcroft ≠ All christians

Extremists ≠ All Muslims.

 

Even the conservative right that you appear to be trying to represent understands a number of the points that you seem to be ignorant to. Open your mind, realize that people cannot be categorized as easily as you think (Liberals/muslims) and you will see that this issue is far more complex than your, frankly, remedial understanding of it.

 

Thats my part, my 42¢ wore out its welcome many posts ago.

ill take you up anytime on any topic, math history, triva in general, the olny thing i suck at is writing.

(which makes it hard to prove my point)

but i am a very big extremeist, so that dosent help, andyou being on the left, and more liberal also makes this argument more diffcult. I guess we will find out later in the election year whether or not america likes being conservative or liberal, aka kerry vs bush.

 

and marc reread your statement out loud

[iwishiwascool]

Originally posted by B Dubs-b13:

ill take you up anytime on any topic, math history, triva in general, the olny thing i suck at is writing.

http://www.columbusdsm.com/forum/images/smiles/confused.gif

 

that was the strangest statement ive encountered in a political discussion.

[AngryBMW]

Originally posted by B Dubs-b13:

 

and marc reread your statement out loud

What exactly do you want me to reread?

-Marc

[Tulo]

comic relief:

http://www.mustangmods.com/data/497/haha.jpg

[AngryBMW]

thats hilarious

(this is brandon)