Religious posters removed from classroom

[Science Abuse]

this isn't tough.

You have a right to freedom of speech by mouth and in the decoration of your property. The school isn't his property, it's the school boards. If they dont want shit hanging there, it dont have to hang there. If he was preaching verbaly, they'd have better luck making a "freedome of speach" case. But as it stands, he was decoration other peoples shit with his beleifs. Case closed, ruling in the school boards favor.

[Adam]

you have more faith believing in evolution, than you do believing in creationism

[Doug1647545489]

you have more faith believing in evolution, than you do believing in creationism

 

How so?

 

To me at least, I think evolution has already been proven. It's just how did the process start that hasn't been yet. You can't ignore the facts like our genetic links to other species and our neanderthal ancestors. We have evolved.

 

It blows my mind that so many people can believe in something that is as outragreous as the bible. I mean everything in it reads like an old folk tale. Most of it goes against reason and rational thought. Take adam and eve for example. Like I said above, we have hard proof that we evolved from cavemen. Their remains are sitting in museums. Hard concrete evidence and yet people still believe in the story of adam and eve.

 

It just doesn't make sense to me. I can see why in the 15th century we could believe something like that, but at that time we also thought the world was flat and the earth was the center of the universe. You would think that as a modern civilized society we would come to our senses. Yes, its hard to let go but we really do need to move on.

 

 

Sorry if I'm preaching a bit but I do find this to be a fascinating topic.

[desperado]

Hmmmm, like ALWAYS, the real truth is missed. If you are going to remove ALL religon from school then you have in fact selected a religon, that being Athiesim.

 

Yall, just don't get it. It's not that they are trying to remove religon from schools they are only doing it to Christianity and Jewdism (SP?) there are schools that the ACLU is forcing to put a place aside for Muslims to pray, and to allow the females to wear shrowds over their faces. But wearing a cross, or one of the little hats (sorry guys I am not Jewish, I don't know what to call them) to school and the ACLU would be in there saying that the school was favoring religon.

 

If schools are going to remove religon, then it's all or nothing. This nonsense of not allowing "under God" in the pledge, but setting aside a class room for Muslim prayer is bullshit. I am not trying to pick on the Muslim religon mind you, but that is the curent trend.

 

So lets remove religon, so you tear up or mark out most of the text in american history books. Now with what's left we remove Thomas Jefferson from them to make the blacks happy because he was a slave owner. Hell we cut out most of the civil war because it was suppost to be about slavey, but really wasn't. It was about secussion (SP), Now we can't talk about the Indian war any more either, because it is offencsive to Native Americans. The Spanish American war needs to go to,, And the Mexican war. We give Texas and Califorina back to Mexico, Louisiana back to the French, the rest back to the Indians and we leave and go back from where we came.

 

Dumb shits. Fuck em all if they ain't happy. I have ancestors back to the revolutionary war in this country, and indian blood on my mothers side as well. I ain't pissed about nothing. Other than these do gooders that think that we need to not talk about history because a few find it offensive.

[Devils Advocate]

Doug wins.

[Guest rperry74]

I disagree with you here Doug. IF evolution has truly been proven, then why are there still monkeys, chimpanzees or whatever they say it is we "evolved" from? I think the term evolution has been highly confused with the term adaptation. As a species we have learned to adapt over the millenia, and yes, the weaker species that has not adapted has died off. But I am pretty sure we didn't start out as another completely different species, and then evolve into what we are today. Yes there may be similarities, there is no denying the proof of that. But like I said, if evolution is how we came about, then all other species which we evolved from should be extinct, right? That would mean no primates, period, because they are the lesser of the two species.

[Adam]

evolution explains the process of a birds beak getting harder, longer small changes, but does not explain how you can grow an eyeball from something, or your body figuring out it needs another arm

[Orion]

doug, if evolution has been proven, then why do the experts in the scientific community still apply the label "theory" to it?

 

because it hasnt.

 

essentially, if you beleive that we humans evolved from more primitive species, and ultimately, from single celled organisms, as the "theory of evolution" presents, then what you have done is ascribe your faith to ongoing studies done by man about something we dont truly understand as of yet regarding where we come from, and who we are. you tell me, how does that make you different from a christian? or a muslim? or a jew?

 

i dont hold a belief in evolution against anyone. since we were children, weve been inundated by the government with evolutionary theory, from the time we first start coloring dinosaurs and asking why they arent in the zoo. if someone told me 2 + 2 = 5 almost every day for my whole life, and then taught it in school, conveniently neglecting to mention that they werent totally positive that 2 + 2 actually did equal 5, but it could be extrapolated that it might, it wouldnt be too hard for me to think that it was true. especially if i hadnt ever had a desire or any incentive to search for myself and discover if i actually thought it was true or not.

 

before someone jumps in here and begans asking how i could possibly be stupid enough to believe in the bible and what it teaches, remember, i am not presenting a case for or against evolution. i am merely stating that subscribing to the belief that it truly holds the key to our origins is the same, if not in the letter of the definition then to the spirit, as believing that our origins lie in the hands of a sentient creator.

[Orion]

oh, and for eli, im not sure what made you decide to insult me instead of posting something useful, but here you go...

 

most often, you give thought to what others say and try to determine wether or not it has merit. sometimes, you dont. this is one of those times.

[Devils Advocate]

Evolution is true. Please show me evidence that it isn't.

[Devils Advocate]

evolution explains the process of a birds beak getting harder, longer small changes, but does not explain how you can grow an eyeball from something, or your body figuring out it needs another arm

 

 

What?

 

Those are both definitely related. that's what we like to call adaptation. If you need to grow another arm to survive in a situation, it will happen over a very long period of time. Some organisms do this more quickly, and smaller changes obviously happen more quickly, but what you named as possible and impossible are both totally related.

[Guest rperry74]

And my point is proven in that very statement. Each and every creature had its origin somewhere. Those who adapted, survived. Those who didn't, well... And for the bigger question. If in fact, as evolutionary theory presents, we evolved from a single cell, why are there so many variants of so many species of animal, plant, and even human? If there was just one cell that began life, how did birds, dogs, rats, and so on come to be? It is because each of them already were in existence, and those equipped to make the necessary changes, or adapt, survived.

[Doug1647545489]

doug, if evolution has been proven, then why do the experts in the scientific community still apply the label "theory" to it?

 

because it hasnt.

 

you tell me, how does that make you different from a christian? or a muslim? or a jew?

 

Because I don't believe in a "higher power" or a "god". Evolution (and the evidence that supports it) is still a theory but its a helluva a lot closer to a truth to me then a book.

 

i dont hold a belief in evolution against anyone. since we were children, weve been inundated by the government with evolutionary theory, from the time we first start coloring dinosaurs and asking why they arent in the zoo. if someone told me 2 + 2 = 5 almost every day for my whole life, and then taught it in school, conveniently neglecting to mention that they werent totally positive that 2 + 2 actually did equal 5, but it could be extrapolated that it might, it wouldnt be too hard for me to think that it was true.

 

Same can be said for religion. Just substitue gov't for parents or some other influential figure in your life. My parents are very religious. I went to a catholic school yet I believe in evolution and science.

 

before someone jumps in here and begans asking how i could possibly be stupid enough to believe in the bible and what it teaches, remember, i am not presenting a case for or against evolution. i am merely stating that subscribing to the belief that it truly holds the key to our origins is the same, if not in the letter of the definition then to the spirit, as believing that our origins lie in the hands of a sentient creator.

Believing in something isn't stupid. I would just like to figure out why. It's hard not to step on people toes with subjects like this because everyone always thinks they are right ... well I guess that isn't much different when it comes to cars either

[Doug1647545489]

evolution explains the process of a birds beak getting harder, longer small changes, but does not explain how you can grow an eyeball from something, or your body figuring out it needs another arm

 

Big mutations like that don't happen often. I mean most, if not all mammals have 4 appendages. If you want to see a good example of evolution look up a Mudskipper.

 

It has nothing to do with your body figuring anything out. Evolution happens over huge periods of time and many generations. It's just how species adapt to there enviroments.

[Doug1647545489]

I disagree with you here Doug. IF evolution has truly been proven, then why are there still monkeys, chimpanzees or whatever they say it is we "evolved" from? I think the term evolution has been highly confused with the term adaptation. As a species we have learned to adapt over the millenia, and yes, the weaker species that has not adapted has died off. But I am pretty sure we didn't start out as another completely different species, and then evolve into what we are today. Yes there may be similarities, there is no denying the proof of that. But like I said, if evolution is how we came about, then all other species which we evolved from should be extinct, right? That would mean no primates, period, because they are the lesser of the two species.

 

Well I see what your saying. They are the lesser (monkeys) of the two species but if there is no reason to die off... then they don't. But hypothetically lets say where all the monkeys live a ice age occurs. Well the monkeys won't know what to do. THey wouldn't know how to build a shelter or a fire. So they are screwed and would die off. But if there were humans in that same area they could adapt to the environment (because we're more evolved). Sure some maybe would die but the affects wouldn't be as devastating as say the affects on the monkeys. kinda make sense? THe weaker species doesn't always have to die off they are just more likely too.

[Science Abuse]

evolution explains the process of a birds beak getting harder, longer small changes, but does not explain how you can grow an eyeball from something, or your body figuring out it needs another arm

Yes it does. Of course, what is taught in public school is very very basic. Breifly touching on your specific example; Occasionaly the growth message is interrupted, and you have birth defects. We know why and how, but the when still illudes us in some cases.

 

Dj, evolution requires faith, yes, but that doesn't make it a religion. No one worships Darwin or makes people swear on The Origin of Species.

Evolution has been proven and observed. Not on "The Grand Sacle", that would require time travel, the best we have in that respect is archeology. However, we, as humans, have witnessed evolution occur before our very eyes. More often then not, it's animals adapting to our presence. The most obvious; Look at your burger and ask where it came from. Cows didn't always sport the Gateway Colors.

 

Debating creationism vs evolution is stupid, because you will never prove the other person wrong. Relgious teachings have no place in schools. Pick up a bible and give it a read. It will tell you christians to pass it through family. WWJD? He wouldn't lobby schools to teach everyone, he'd teach christian kids his damn self. He never made anyone listen to him, he just spoke, and those who wanted to listen did. The only reason christians want it taught in schools is bacause no one wants to hear it anymore. We're seeing the true purpose of religion, getting power and holding it. Christians used to run things, and now thats slipping. Sticking the 10 commandments everywhere, putting verbal prayer in public events, and trying to get creationism taught in public schools again is all summarized in one sentence; "LOOK AT US!, We're still here, and we still run things, you should join us." That is, of course, if they win. Prayer is between you and god, not you and a crowd, it is not personal expression. The 10 commandments does not belong in courthouses, we have our own laws now, post them at your curches. You dont see Hamurabi's laws up anywhere do you? Creationism is taught at home by parents, in church, or in sunday school. Everyone who wants and needs to hear about it already has. Teaching it in public schools is nothing more then an attention getting device. It's so simple that it wouldn't even constitude a subject, it'd be completely summarized in a 9 question quiz. If your that despirate, do what my highschool did, lobby for a "Bible as litterature" class. Taugh under the guise of mythology and as an elective course.

 

Religion has no buisness in public schools, 100% of the faithful in this world became faithful at home or on their own, no where else. The only possible reason for wanting it there is advertising, period.

Christians need to stop their bitching and do what J would D.

[Guest rperry74]

When did we switch this to teaching this in schools? The reason Hamurabi's laws are not around is because they are based on faulty logic. Wether or not a man can survive floating down a river should not decide who gets to keep thier life or property, especially when dealing with proving a mere accusation. I agree that arguing Creationism vs. Darwinism will always lead to impass as the arguments for both sides can go on and on. So on this subject I digress. But I do not believe that Christians are "advertising" for lack of influence or power. The reason the Ten Commandments were placed on these buildings is because our modern law was based on these very commandments. We are not bitching, it is simply a moral standard that should be upheld, wether or not you are a Christian, Jew, or anything else. Any way, I guess we should talk to any and all sanctioning bodies, for any and all sports of any kind, and those who have prayer before they proceed should be told to stop it immediately. After all, we wouldn't want anyone to think we are trying to gain power through the influence of the masses at sporting events.

[El Karacho1647545492]

If a kid wants to say grace before a meal which happens to be at lunch in the cafeteria of his school, should it be forbidden? If a Muslim feels obligated to pray at lunch whilst his classmates are eating because his religion dictates it must be so, should it be forbidden? Come on. Religion is a very personal thing, in my opinion. For the state to intrude on such a personal level in school is a mockery of religion itself. I have never been an advocate of organized religion because of the hate I believe it creates between sects, but in this case, I'm going to say the rights of the individual to pray and feel comfortable in a spiritually enhanced environment are far more important than the fragile minds of other youngsters that may be warped. Kids aren't going to absorb any particular doctrine of religion until they are well into their teens, so why does it matter? Because people need something to bitch about, and religion is easily portrayed as a big bad wolf in this case.

 

 

I know brian is probably squirming in his chair not reading this, so I apologize for the long windedness

[AngryBMW]

Sometimes you say realy smart things. Sometimes you don't. This is one of those times.

 

Yup.

-Marc

[martindc1]

I disagree with you here Doug. IF evolution has truly been proven, then why are there still monkeys, chimpanzees or whatever they say it is we "evolved" from? I think the term evolution has been highly confused with the term adaptation. As a species we have learned to adapt over the millenia, and yes, the weaker species that has not adapted has died off. But I am pretty sure we didn't start out as another completely different species, and then evolve into what we are today. Yes there may be similarities, there is no denying the proof of that. But like I said, if evolution is how we came about, then all other species which we evolved from should be extinct, right? That would mean no primates, period, because they are the lesser of the two species.

 

Our ancestors are extinct. The theory of the evolutionary history of humans and other primates are that chimps, humans, and other primates evolved from a common ancestor, not that we evolved from chimps.

 

The theory of natural selection basically states that individuals with traits that are "selected" for have better suvivorship. Individuals with a better survivorship result in better reproduction. If a population has a birth rate that is greater than or equal to its death rate will survive where as populations with death rates greater than the birth rate will become extinct.

 

Evolution is not a process by which living things progress toward a higher state or perfection. It is a process by which a species changes over time. Take a whale for example. Whales ancestors were land dwelling mammals with 4 appendages and a tail. Over time the decendants of these ancestors became more water-dwelling and the front appendages became developed as fins, the rear appendages essentially disappeared, and the tail became more developed as a whales main "flipper." Whales by no-means developed into more complex or higher state organisms. They became specialized for sea dwelling.

 

doug, if evolution has been proven, then why do the experts in the scientific community still apply the label "theory" to it?

 

because it hasnt.

 

Because the scientific method does not "prove" anything. The scientific method supports a theory from experimental data. A hypothesis is formulated to test a theory and at the conclusion of an experiment, if that hypothesis is not true, it is altered and retested.

 

evolution explains the process of a birds beak getting harder, longer small changes, but does not explain how you can grow an eyeball from something, or your body figuring out it needs another arm

 

Evolution does not result at the level of the individual but rather at the level of the population. No individual organism will spontaneously grow another arm or grow an eyeball. However, a species could develop eyes from a spot of cells that are receptive to light. If the individuals within that population have a better survivorship with a mass of cells that are receptive to light, then eventually the whole population will have a mass of cells that are receptive to light. If individuals within the resultant population have a better survivorship if their light receptive cells have cells that are more receptive to different wavelengths of light then eventually the whole population will have masses of cells that are receptive to light and within different cells are receptive to different wavelengths.

 

Ok I have to get back to work but will be back later. But one other thing: I do "believe" in evolution...just as I believe in gravity.

[Guest rperry74]

So explain to me at what point the distinction between primate and human came about. What common ancestor would have been able to "evolve" into hundreds of other species of mammal? Does this mean that all reptiles came from one common ancestor and "evolved" into thousands of species that spread themselves across the land and sea? I am just confused about this aspect.

[martindc1]

So explain to me at what point the distinction between primate and human came about. What common ancestor would have been able to "evolve" into hundreds of other species of mammal?

 

Basically a species is considered when two individuals can reproduce viable offspring. Viable meaning that the offspring can reproduce. For example a horse and a donkey can reproduce and make a mule, but a horse and a donkey are considered different species because the resultant mule is sterile. I am not real sure if there is a known ancestor of both chimps and humans but there have been bones found of primates that have both the structural characteristics of chimps and humans.

 

Does this mean that all reptiles came from one common ancestor and "evolved" into thousands of species that spread themselves across the land and sea?

 

Pretty much.

 

Careful study of the bone structures of the skulls of various tetrapods (human, fish, turtle, cat, crocadile) would blow your mind. Its all the same bones in the same locations but with similar shape and different sizes. Its even more apparent when you compare similar animals like dogs versus bears or humans versus chimps or neanderthal man.

[martindc1]

So in the wake of a major thread hijack here is some interesting links if anyone is interested. I myself should read the first one as I am a little rusty on the subject. The second is this same discussion on Corner-Carvers which managed to stay pretty civil despite its 6+ pages:

 

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24716