The Arena Issue and the CBJ

[LJ]

Now wait a second. There are WAAAAYYYYYY more hockey fans in Columbus than Soccer.

 

Soccer is just cheaper to operate all around.

 

Their average attendance is very very close to each other.

[AWW$HEEET]

Let it fail. If the rent is too high, Nationwide will really feel the pain then NOBODY is renting it at all.

 

Ive lived in Columbus all my life and couldnt really give 2 shits about what happens to downtown. Ive pretty much had it with Micheal Coleman, all the blubbering liberals and the whole downtown scene.

[TheHaze]

Their average attendance is very very close to each other.

 

You are correct, though the NHL has nearly twice the games per season than MLS does. The Blue Jackets still do average more in attendance, even if only by a couple thousand. That's a substantial amount, though. I think he's correct in saying that Columbus has more hockey fans than MLS fans. Columbus is a great hockey city and is getting better.

 

Though I voted "yes" in the poll, and I'm the biggest CBJ fan ever, that's a personal call on my part; that is, I would personally pay more taxes to keep a sport and team I love in the city. However, I would not vote for a tax burden on others. I don't think it's a good answer nor the responsibility of tax-payers anymore then it already is. I think a private buyer option is really the only thing acceptable. It seems that a majority of the lost money was around the time of the NHL lockout, but I'm unsure. Hopefully the past couple of seasons have shown improvement.

[HotCarl]

Throwing money at folks who obviously can't manage it, is a terrible idea. How much did they throw at Rick Nash recently ? Or the other players ? Or the coaches, staff, owners ? They don't want to dig in their pockets when they are the ones directly responsible for the success/failure of the business ??? If you can't generate enough revenue selling tickets, concessions, tshirts, jerseys then you should fuck off. I love hockey, but fuck paying TAXES for it.

 

Hockey operations and Arena operations are almost two seperate things. Look at it this way, if they dont improve their product no one will come see games therefore NO revenue is generated. Scott Howeson (GM for the CBJ) has a clear cap that the owners have given him, every year we are MILLIONS below other teams considering cap space. The Jackets have always been considered a budget team. Yes they gave Nash a hefty contract, but they had to simple as that.

 

Also consider, even if they were the least expensive team in the league, contract wise (which they very well could be) they would still be bleeding money. Even if they were the best team in the league and selling out every home game, they would still be bleeding money. The issue here isnt the product they're selling, its the lease issue as pertains to public support.

[HotCarl]

I'm all for "no" for pretty much all the reasons stated on page 1. But if by some miracle this went through (it won't, btw) and the CBJ become public or semi public property, then seat prices had better drop DRASTICALLY, and there had better be a large amount of free seats every game. Perhaps won in a lottery or something. If the public is paying for it, the public should get to access it at little to no extra cost.

 

Edit: I have spent quite a lot of cash in arena district bars/restaurants and I have never been to a CBJ game, nor do I own and CBJ merchandise. Have you been to the arena district bars on a Thursday/Friday/Saturday night? They are all hopping, without assistance from the CBJ. They'll be fine.

 

When's the last time you've been to a game? Huntington Green seats sell for 10$!!!!, any upper bowl seat only sell's for 26$ and hell if you know how to work it you can get 26$ seats for 10$. Hockey is by far the second least expensive when it comes to seating revenue (second only to soccer).

 

As for the public getting kickbacks if we "bail them out". Consider this, the county receives a little over 30 million a year in taxes generated from the CBJ and the Arena, thats 30million dollars that the county and its people have been getting FOR FREE because there was NO public funding when the Arena was built. Also consider out of 121 professional sport arena's and stadium, only 2 are fully privately funded. San Fransisco Giants stadium and, you guessed it, Nationwide Arena. So it looks to me that the county has been given a free pay-day for the last 8 years, we didnt invest anything yet we're gaining 30 million annually.

 

And to your point about the Arena district "booming" despite the team or any tenant occupying Nationwide. The Columbus Chamber produced a report that when boiled down simply says the team drive the arena, the arena drives the district. Without the team eventually the city will suffer and lose money http://www.columbus.org/media-center/news-archive/?id=63

 

EDIT: here's the exact report done by Susan Buser, PhD of The Ohio State University. She was brought on to do a third party review over the whole situation and give an unskewed look at what needs to be done as well as what options are there. http://b700441e9603e56472e76fceed3901483f5d7759.gripelements.com/pdf/news/optionsfinal.pdf

Edited November 20, 2009 by HotCarl

[HotCarl]

The whole premise is laughable. Can you say ANOTHER bailout? When does it end? My taxes go up to make more money for millionaire players and billionaire owners? McConnels organization can bleed 8 mill a year for the next 1000 years and not miss it! SCREW THEM

 

As for the local businesses...sorry, you lose. Find another way to make a buck. It's called a contingency plan...what happens if?...you know, the way business used to run before any of this "TO BIG TO FAIL" BS.

 

I'm so sick of it.

 

Thats it, and the 5,500+ jobs the Arena District supports and has generated can all apply for a "contingency plan" called UNEMPLOYMENT. Smart.

 

Its important to know this shouldnt be looked at as a BAILOUT for the county but an INVESTMENT. We invest tax dollars in becoming part/full owner's of the Arena what little taxes we do spend on it we gain back in tax revenue and jobs created and keeping people off of unemployment.

Edited November 20, 2009 by HotCarl
it was 5500 jobs created, not 7000

[HotCarl]

By the way - love the Jackets, appreciate the impact for Columbus in dollars, but subsidizing a business with my tax dollars is not acceptable. Funny, when Mr. McConnel was still alive, this wasn't a problem.

 

Not completely true. When Mr Mac was alive he just kept everything behind closed doors. Like I said, this has been a problem for a long time and its just coming to fruition now. Before his passed McConnel gave two simple orders to his son's. Fix the on ice product (which they did by hiring GM Scott Howeson) and fix the Arena lease issue.

[HotCarl]

One more post and i promise Im done! I think its pretty clear Im a big Jackets fan however I think this problem supercede's the team itself and has to do more with our city and the people in it. To me, the Jackets in all of this are simply a tenant that the city makes money off of (lots of money). For the area and city to be profitable we need to keep a tenant in Nationwide Arena. The City and County have gotten off easy for the last 10 years not having to invest any tax revenue from us yet receiving all the revenue the team/arena/district create's. Its time to invest so we can grow.

 

At the time of the Susan Buser report the Casino wasnt a viable option. Now it obviously is however the Columbus Chamber has already ruled out this being some sort savior for the Arena. If anything it will attract people away from the district into its own bars and hotels rather than stimulating our local economy, and as other have noted not all of their profits are being taxed like the bars, restaurants and arena is in the district so in effect we'd be losing money.

 

In closing, here is some interesting reading possibly giving a perspective no one has thought about.

http://columbus.bizjournals.com/columbus/poll/index.html

http://www.columbus.org/media-center/news-archive/?id=63

http://b700441e9603e56472e76fceed3901483f5d7759.gripelements.com/pdf/news/optionsfinal.pdf

http://www.lightthelamp.com/2009-articles/november/brace-yourselves.html#comments

[Nd4spd_150]

taxes is not the answer YES it would help a part of our failing city economy but so would cleaning out the bad neighborhoods in the columbus metro area. more taxes would also save some schools from closing too. so heres the deal the columbus blue jackets, other teams, other sports, players, etc can all go fuck themselves with my/your tax dollars how about we invest it in our future. SCHOOLS even if you have no children they are our future not some half retarded sports players. "If you plan for one year plant rice. If you plan for ten years plant a tree. If you plan for one hundred years educate your children." ancient chinese proverb. you decide which is more important.

[Nitrousbird]

taxes is not the answer YES it would help a part of our failing city economy but so would cleaning out the bad neighborhoods in the columbus metro area. more taxes would also save some schools from closing too. so heres the deal the columbus blue jackets, other teams, other sports, players, etc can all go fuck themselves with my/your tax dollars how about we invest it in our future. SCHOOLS even if you have no children they are our future not some half retarded sports players. "If you plan for one year plant rice. If you plan for ten years plant a tree. If you plan for one hundred years educate your children." ancient chinese proverb. you decide which is more important.

Screw all that give more money to the children BS. The schools get piles of cash; they mismanage the hell out of it. Plus, it should be the responsibility of the PARENTS to pay for their children's education, not everyone else.

[verse]

taxes is not the answer YES it would help a part of our failing city economy but so would cleaning out the bad neighborhoods in the columbus metro area. more taxes would also save some schools from closing too. so heres the deal the columbus blue jackets, other teams, other sports, players, etc can all go fuck themselves with my/your tax dollars how about we invest it in our future. SCHOOLS even if you have no children they are our future not some half retarded sports players. "If you plan for one year plant rice. If you plan for ten years plant a tree. If you plan for one hundred years educate your children." ancient chinese proverb. you decide which is more important.

 

Blah blah blah, give it to the kids. It's not the school fault that they are lazy fat kids with no work ethic. That's not taught in school. That's learned through your environment. People treat their kids like glass these days, that's why the levels of stupidity is going up. Not b/c schools can't pay for sports programs.

[Nd4spd_150]

ok first of all even if you don't have kids who the fuck is going to be running this country soon? a hockey team? the next generation of doctors they coming from the NFL? secondly where does babying kids have anything to do with educating them? Did your parents teach you everything you know? No a teacher did jackass. Secondly kids are getting worse as far as education and common sence because of stupid white trash and the lazy ignorant black community that pop out 17 kids and expect the govt. to raise them. So yeah i would vote fuck you and your hockey team how about we do something to better our chances that our health care, economy, etc. isn't run by fucking idiots that think a hockey is the best place to invest our money. how about rasing taxes ( if at all ) to fix real problems. Why not vote for more taxes to get the illegal immigrants out of OUR country? How about a better state run education system because blacks and white trash keep getting their kids taken away. That way maybe those kids wont steal you things and then you wont have to pay for them sitting in jail. How about voting for making welare recipients take a piss test so we canweed out the drug using drains on our economy. NO LETS SAVE A HOCKEY TEAM hahahaha fucking idiot.

[Nd4spd_150]

oh i forgot so if its the responsibility of the parents to pay for their children's education will it become your responsibility to pay my and their taxes when they are grown up and taking care of you? Considering we as parents paid for their education that enabled them to do so? Wait that's not fair is it? HMMMMM

[HotCarl]

Screw all that give more money to the children BS. The schools get piles of cash; they mismanage the hell out of it. Plus, it should be the responsibility of the PARENTS to pay for their children's education, not everyone else.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself. My sister in law, an educated and Ohio certified teacher was laid off from her job at a Columbus Public charter school along with 4 other certified teachers only to be replaced by TEACHERS AID'S! People with little or no graduate or post graduate education are actually teaching kids in a charter school, a school in which the parents send their kids thinking they will get a better education than in a regular school. Dont get me started, schools are the worst at mismanaging appropriated funds it doesnt matter how much cash you throw at them.

[HotCarl]

ok first of all even if you don't have kids who the fuck is going to be running this country soon? a hockey team? the next generation of doctors they coming from the NFL? secondly where does babying kids have anything to do with educating them? Did your parents teach you everything you know? No a teacher did jackass. Secondly kids are getting worse as far as education and common sence because of stupid white trash and the lazy ignorant black community that pop out 17 kids and expect the govt. to raise them. So yeah i would vote fuck you and your hockey team how about we do something to better our chances that our health care, economy, etc. isn't run by fucking idiots that think a hockey is the best place to invest our money. how about rasing taxes ( if at all ) to fix real problems. Why not vote for more taxes to get the illegal immigrants out of OUR country? How about a better state run education system because blacks and white trash keep getting their kids taken away. That way maybe those kids wont steal you things and then you wont have to pay for them sitting in jail. How about voting for making welare recipients take a piss test so we canweed out the drug using drains on our economy. NO LETS SAVE A HOCKEY TEAM hahahaha fucking idiot.

 

 

Judging from the way your wrote this post I can totally understand your stance as being a firm supporter of the educational system and its lack of accountability.

[Chad Bittle]

I don't understand what ever happened to things like 'natural selection' and 'weeding out the weak'. As far as schools, first there was Head Start, then no kid left behind. Then with businesses and banks they fuck up big time, blame anyone but themselves and then ask for more money from people that make less then half of their salaries.

 

What doesn't make sense to me is why in the hell aren't people outraged about it? Some of you guys say things like the Blue Jackets are the backbone to business and economy so feed them more money? I've got news for you, they are FAILING. So yea, just feed 'em more money that way they can FAIL later down the road and make all of us poor.

 

I, in no way, think I'm above/higher then anyone else. I work two jobs, one for a small family owned furniture company and the second my own lawn service that I took over after my grandfather passed away. I make barely $28,000 a year and they expect ME to pay for them to stay afloat? Bullshit.

 

All I know is if I fucked up at either one of my jobs as bad as any of the banks, huge corps. and the Blue Jackets I'd be fired quicker then shit.

[verse]

Judging from the way your wrote this post I can totally understand your stance as being a firm supporter of the educational system and its lack of accountability.

 

I see what you did there... hahaha

[Nd4spd_150]

Judging from the way your wrote this post I can totally understand your stance as being a firm supporter of the educational system and its lack of accountability.

judging by your word usage i would say you hold the school systems responsible for kids failing to meet testing requirements over spending on sports etc. YES thats a huge problem however it everyones fault for not going to the school board meetings and voicing your opinions. You bring up lack of accountability so you are for lining rich mens pockets, paying for expensive houses and cars the players own so on and so fourth. yes dumping money into schools isn't the best idea however my child will suffer because the ghetto schools are closing down because of irresponsible people don't know what birth control is, put 16 kids into the school can't pay for shit so the state and tax payers pick up the tab. Those schools close down then the fuckers invade my daughter's school. BUT THOSE SAME PEOPLE WILL GO TO A CBJ GAME.

[HotCarl]

judging by your word usage i would say you hold the school systems responsible for kids failing to meet testing requirements over spending on sports etc. YES thats a huge problem however it everyones fault for not going to the school board meetings and voicing your opinions. You bring up lack of accountability so you are for lining rich mens pockets, paying for expensive houses and cars the players own so on and so fourth. yes dumping money into schools isn't the best idea however my child will suffer because the ghetto schools are closing down because of irresponsible people don't know what birth control is, put 16 kids into the school can't pay for shit so the state and tax payers pick up the tab. Those schools close down then the fuckers invade my daughter's school. BUT THOSE SAME PEOPLE WILL GO TO A CBJ GAME.

 

"Lining rich mens pockets" are you fucking kidding me? Go back and read the whole thread before you start making rediculous comments that make you look like even more of a narrow-minded, slightly racist fool... you fucking moron. You think schooling is so damn important tutor your own kid or better yet send her to private school where you dictate exactly how good of an education she receives.

 

As Ive said before, I could care less about the Columbus Blue Jackets, I care that Nationwide Arena has a tenant that produce's taxable income to the tune of 30 million a year, which by the way will INCREASE and DOUBLE by 2018 (all dependant on steady economic growth). If you would take your fucking head out of your ass you would realize CBJ and the Arena itself are a moneymaker for the county and city, money that goes to your precious fucking schools!

 

You have to understand its not like their going to tax the public and GIVE it to the McConnell's. Nationwide Arena would be partially owned by the public, we'd be buying an asset that makes a substantial return on our investment.

[RedRocket1647545505]

I don't understand what ever happened to things like 'natural selection' and 'weeding out the weak'. As far as schools, first there was Head Start, then no kid left behind. Then with businesses and banks they fuck up big time, blame anyone but themselves and then ask for more money from people that make less then half of their salaries.

 

What doesn't make sense to me is why in the hell aren't people outraged about it? Some of you guys say things like the Blue Jackets are the backbone to business and economy so feed them more money? I've got news for you, they are FAILING. So yea, just feed 'em more money that way they can FAIL later down the road and make all of us poor.

 

I, in no way, think I'm above/higher then anyone else. I work two jobs, one for a small family owned furniture company and the second my own lawn service that I took over after my grandfather passed away. I make barely $28,000 a year and they expect ME to pay for them to stay afloat? Bullshit.

 

All I know is if I fucked up at either one of my jobs as bad as any of the banks, huge corps. and the Blue Jackets I'd be fired quicker then shit.

 

I would like to subscribe to your news letter. Do you, perhaps, have a brochure?

[Draco-REX]

I don't understand what ever happened to things like 'natural selection' and 'weeding out the weak'. As far as schools, first there was Head Start, then no kid left behind. Then with businesses and banks they fuck up big time, blame anyone but themselves and then ask for more money from people that make less then half of their salaries.

 

What doesn't make sense to me is why in the hell aren't people outraged about it? Some of you guys say things like the Blue Jackets are the backbone to business and economy so feed them more money? I've got news for you, they are FAILING. So yea, just feed 'em more money that way they can FAIL later down the road and make all of us poor.

 

I, in no way, think I'm above/higher then anyone else. I work two jobs, one for a small family owned furniture company and the second my own lawn service that I took over after my grandfather passed away. I make barely $28,000 a year and they expect ME to pay for them to stay afloat? Bullshit.

 

All I know is if I fucked up at either one of my jobs as bad as any of the banks, huge corps. and the Blue Jackets I'd be fired quicker then shit.

 

+1

[V8 Beast]

Based on the posts I'm reading I have never been so proud of my public school education in my entire life.

[Veritas]

Couldn't have said it better myself. My sister in law, an educated and Ohio certified teacher was laid off from her job at a Columbus Public charter school along with 4 other certified teachers only to be replaced by TEACHERS AID'S! People with little or no graduate or post graduate education are actually teaching kids in a charter school, a school in which the parents send their kids thinking they will get a better education than in a regular school. Dont get me started, schools are the worst at mismanaging appropriated funds it doesnt matter how much cash you throw at them.

 

 

Then I would argue that your sister should have joined up with the other employees and DID something of worth to fight that kind of in-justice since that's affecting more than just their income. Also, you have a lovely way of shutting out any other reasoning or critical thinking in this debate as well since you refuse to address what will be done differently even if this tax were to go through (which it really, really should not) to offset the failing income the team is making? Why should we invest in a company that has shown a history of NOT yielding results and no, you can not use the argument that the surrounding businesses yield to fruition from the bluejackets being there as they DO NOT GET MONEY FROM OTHER BUSINESSES REVENUE.

 

Something immediate that would rectify the situation and would not prove itself to being another money pit as the team already is.

 

Also, the children of today are the caretakers of tomorrow. Don't be a fuck and think that just because you won't take time to invest into the future of someone else s child that they won't have to invest into your well being and future at some point in time; because they will.

[HotCarl]

Then I would argue that your sister should have joined up with the other employees and DID something of worth to fight that kind of in-justice since that's affecting more than just their income. Also, you have a lovely way of shutting out any other reasoning or critical thinking in this debate as well since you refuse to address what will be done differently even if this tax were to go through (which it really, really should not) to offset the failing income the team is making? Why should we invest in a company that has shown a history of NOT yielding results and no, you can not use the argument that the surrounding businesses yield to fruition from the bluejackets being there as they DO NOT GET MONEY FROM OTHER BUSINESSES REVENUE.

 

Something immediate that would rectify the situation and would not prove itself to being another money pit as the team already is.

 

Also, the children of today are the caretakers of tomorrow. Don't be a fuck and think that just because you won't take time to invest into the future of someone else s child that they won't have to invest into your well being and future at some point in time; because they will.

 

 

For my sister-in-law, she's already exploring options with the teachers union (which im not too positive she was apart of because the school was considered a charter school, somehow those are viewed differently from the teacher's union's. Honestly I have talked to her in depth about it since it happened 3 weeks ago, i still think its pretty rediculous that teacher's aides are now teaching 4th graders, and so it goes.

 

 

As for 'shutting out others' point of views' I cant agree with you there. Why in the world would I even create this post if I was just going to shoot everyone down. Yes, your right I think I am in the right on this one and Im really just trying to spread the word and get people at the very least informed on what could be an impact on our city. But I have yet to hear a single point made that would make me reconsider my point of view. Again, to me this is an investment for the city/county and its tax payers. What we would pay for in taxes we would make a huge return on in the coming decade with economic growth. To be more specific (as you mentioned) we wouldnt be investing in a company we'd be investing in real estate that a company would occupy. After purchasing the Arena (at a deep deep discount) we could dictate the lease agreement with CBJ to help them be more profitable, in addition we could also control non-hockey operations increasing revenue and hell, if we really wanted to try to find another tenant (NBA, even though I personally dont think they would come to Cbus) we could.

 

As for something Immediate I think the only other option would be for a third party to come in. Basically it would solve all the problem's without having a public funding option at all. That would be great, and maybe there are arrangements being made but nothings public yet, never know.

[HotCarl]

Also, the children of today are the caretakers of tomorrow. Don't be a fuck and think that just because you won't take time to invest into the future of someone else s child that they won't have to invest into your well being and future at some point in time; because they will.

 

Oh and as for this comment Im not exactly sure where your coming from on this but Im a firm believer in "in takes a village" theory. HOWEVER if your going to whine and piss and cry about it then take matters into your own hands and do something if your not happy with the outcome. I would never expect anyone to raise my child for me or educate them for me either, its takes a 'team' effort with teachers and parents. Trust me i hear this shit from my sister-in-law all the time and Im years away from poping out any kids.