College Football - 2010

[OSUGT]

^cuz it makes sense but isnt fair! Its the same mindset that forces men's football and bball to support like 40 neg revenue sports!

 

A power house like TX would certainly increase the current bottom line for everyone regardless of how its distributed! B10 can't see the forest through the trees.

[Dr. Pomade]

Neither Texas nor Notre Dame has any real incentive to join the B10 with the current set up. Offering them $22mil a year - what all the other B10 teams currently receive - isn't very appealing to those two schools, I would imagine, considering how much revenue they already generate. So, you'd have to offer them more. Unfortunately, giving some schools more in the B10 means some are going to get less and that's bound to hurt more than just a few feelings. Still, business is business, and if the B10 is serious, then they just can't add Nebraska and Missouri and silly little Big East teams and think they they'll come out of all of this on top.

[OSUGT]

^agreed. Jim Delaney doesnt have the stones to do what needs to be done though. Maybe OSU should join the Big 12?

[bicranium]

The Big 12 isn't going to survive this conference realignment. Texas is bringing all their buddies with them to the Pac 10 (TT, A&M and Baylor). Baylor is stealing Colorado's spot because they bitched to Texas to get them to bring them along. Big 10 didn't want Texas and all their buddies. Big 10 will almost definitely get Rutgers, Missouri and Nebraska. Then Maryland, Syracuse and ND are the candidates for the last 2 spots. Obviously the best case scenario is Maryland and ND.

 

And to the guy who listed Ohio, Texas and PA as the best recruiting states in the nation, I hope you're just having a brain fart. Texas and Florida are 1a and 1b then California. Then you have a group that includes Ohio, Georgia, Pennsylvania and Louisiana.

[OSUGT]

The Big 12 isn't going to survive this conference realignment. Texas is bringing all their buddies with them to the Pac 10 (TT, A&M and Baylor). Baylor is stealing Colorado's spot because they bitched to Texas to get them to bring them along. Big 10 didn't want Texas and all their buddies. Big 10 will almost definitely get Rutgers, Missouri and Nebraska. Then Maryland, Syracuse and ND are the candidates for the last 2 spots. Obviously the best case scenario is Maryland and ND.

 

And to the guy who listed Ohio, Texas and PA as the best recruiting states in the nation, I hope you're just having a brain fart. Texas and Florida are 1a and 1b then California. Then you have a group that includes Ohio, Georgia, Pennsylvania and Louisiana.

 

well put...I'm just throwing it out there that maybe OSU needs to start looking at it's options? I know it's blasphemy to suggest they leave the B10, but they might start to miss out as well.

 

I have no idea what they are contractually obligated to the B10 for though.

[bicranium]

What will OSU miss out on? The Big 10 is ahead of the curve right now. They're the reason for this realignment. We have the TV deals (ABC/ESPN) and our own network.

[LJ]

Wow you guys are behind

 

Nebraska to the Big Ten

 

Colorado got their Pac-10 spot back because the california schools wouldn't let a Christian school in their conference, Colorado officially announced today.

 

Oklahoma state is reportedly next.

 

Texas is supposedly poised to go.

 

The remaining Big 12 will be absorbed into the MWC

 

Supposedly the SEC won't do anything until the ACC schools want to do something, most likely will add 4 ACC schools and the rest of the ACC will be absorbed into the Big East, while sucking in Football, will absolutely dominate basketball (georgetown, duke, unc, pitt, syracuse, uconn, etc)

 

ND may be left on the outside looking in

[DaddyBuiltRacing]

4 super conferences is the end of college football, just wait and see. This will not end well at all. I just read an article on espn that had an unidentified big12 coach talking about all them going to the pac10, it mentioned that the pac10 has no plans of making a conference championship game...well why the fuck even add teams then? I thought the idea behind adding teams was so there could be conference championship games in every conference. Also the writer mentioned that the possibility of having 2 teams from the same conference in the NCG is must more of a realistic idea now, well so much for BCS controversies right? I mean people threw a fit when it should've been tOSU vs Michigan in the NCG the year Florida went, now they are trying to make conferences so this can happen?

 

Its one giant clusterfuck and they should just leave well enough alone. The big12 could survive without fucking Nebraska and Colorado, I mean seriously who the fuck are those 2 schools anyways. Neither of them have ammounted to shit in the last 20 years or so except for a good year here or there. The big10 conferences are going to be stupid as shit as well. It will look like this

 

Big 10 "west":

Nebraska

Northwestern

Iowa

Wisconsin

Illinois

Indiana

 

"East"

tOSU

Michigan

Michigan St

Penn St

Minnesota

Purdue

 

Tell me the "east" is not stacked compared to the "west"

 

Also the big12 should just add TCU and 1 other school to make 12 and continue on as the big12, instead of going to the pac16 or pac20, however many fucking teams they will have. The pac10 should take Fresno St or Boise St to make up the 12th team. The thought of having 16 football teams in 1 conference isn't even interesting to me. That shit lives in college basketball in the big east and honestly you only pay attention to the top tier programs and the rest just get lost in transit.

 

Oh and 1 more thing, rumor has it the big10 has spoken to the big east and has told the big east they will not take any of their teams....as long as they force ND to join the big east in football. They also say that if ND doesn't join the big east in football, then the big east will release them from the conference in every other sport, remember ND plays basketball in the big east.

 

Why does everyone think this expansion shit is so great? What will it really bring to college football? I just cant picture someone saying "Texas your pac10 champion" or "Nebraska your big 10 western division champion"

[bicranium]

At this point I don't think anyone knows what's going on. It looked pretty good a couple days ago but right now there's way too much going on for anyone to keep track of it. Teams with reported invites to 2-3 different conferences, teams reportedly committing to 2 different conferences, reports of what these super conferences are going to do once they're formed with regards to the NCAA, BCS, etc., etc. The Pac 10 not wanting to be left behind somehow then flash inviting basically the entire Big 12 really screwed everything up. Time to just sit back and see what everything looks like when the dust settles. I don't think it's going to be close to the end of college football. Regular season games between teams like USC and Oklahoma and Texas and Oregon in the Pac 16 and regular season games between teams like OSU and Michigan and ND and Penn St. and Nebraska in the Big 16? Sign me up.

[LJ]

Colorado to Pac 10 officially official

Boise State to MWC officially official

Nebraska to Big 10 officially official

[SinisterSS]

4 super conferences is the end of college football, just wait and see. This will not end well at all. I just read an article on espn that had an unidentified big12 coach talking about all them going to the pac10, it mentioned that the pac10 has no plans of making a conference championship game...well why the fuck even add teams then? I thought the idea behind adding teams was so there could be conference championship games in every conference. Also the writer mentioned that the possibility of having 2 teams from the same conference in the NCG is must more of a realistic idea now, well so much for BCS controversies right? I mean people threw a fit when it should've been tOSU vs Michigan in the NCG the year Florida went, now they are trying to make conferences so this can happen?

 

Its one giant clusterfuck and they should just leave well enough alone. The big12 could survive without fucking Nebraska and Colorado, I mean seriously who the fuck are those 2 schools anyways. Neither of them have ammounted to shit in the last 20 years or so except for a good year here or there. The big10 conferences are going to be stupid as shit as well. It will look like this

 

Big 10 "west":

Nebraska

Northwestern

Iowa

Wisconsin

Illinois

Indiana

 

"East"

tOSU

Michigan

Michigan St

Penn St

Minnesota

Purdue

 

Tell me the "east" is not stacked compared to the "west"

 

Also the big12 should just add TCU and 1 other school to make 12 and continue on as the big12, instead of going to the pac16 or pac20, however many fucking teams they will have. The pac10 should take Fresno St or Boise St to make up the 12th team. The thought of having 16 football teams in 1 conference isn't even interesting to me. That shit lives in college basketball in the big east and honestly you only pay attention to the top tier programs and the rest just get lost in transit.

 

Oh and 1 more thing, rumor has it the big10 has spoken to the big east and has told the big east they will not take any of their teams....as long as they force ND to join the big east in football. They also say that if ND doesn't join the big east in football, then the big east will release them from the conference in every other sport, remember ND plays basketball in the big east.

 

Why does everyone think this expansion shit is so great? What will it really bring to college football? I just cant picture someone saying "Texas your pac10 champion" or "Nebraska your big 10 western division champion"

 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gdx6WWyY2Vs9xGYhQE5G2x_lw__AD9G9BK003

to my knowledge the big-12 is having money issues, and to comment on your post I wish Notre Dame would join the big-10 because they are rich in tradition, but they wont for 2 reasons 1. they're greedy fucks with the NBC contract, (but I heard on the radio today that they will force Notre Dame to a cable company and not NBC just so they'll join a conference because the money wont be there) 2. they will suffer even more in the recruiting area, Penn St. has said since joining the Big-10 their recruiting has suffered heavily, now with that being said I'm glad we got Nebraska instead of Missouri or any of the Big East jokers, the Big East is the worst football conference in my opinion, and I know it was a few years ago but Nebraska was a power house mid to late 90's.

The program has established itself as a traditional powerhouse, and has the fourth-most all-time victories of any NCAA Division I-A team. The Cornhuskers recently completed their 119th season and hold an all-time record of 827–341–40. Nebraska is one of only 7 football programs in NCAA Division I-A history to win 800 games. The Cornhuskers are the winningest college football program over the last 50 years, both by winning percentage and number of wins.

Nebraska has claimed 46 conference championships and part or all of five national championships: 1970, 1971, 1994, 1995, and 1997. The titles in the 1990s marked the first time since Notre Dame in 1946–49 when a team won three national championships in four seasons. The 1994 and 1995 seasons still stand as the only consensus back-to-back national titles by any Division 1-A school since Oklahoma in 1956-57. Nebraska posted a 60–3–0 record between the 1993-97 seasons. ESPN.com has named the 1971 Nebraska Cornhusker team the greatest team of all time

 

I'm excited to see them come to the Big-10, and I would love to get tickets to Ohio State vs. Nebraska

Edited June 12, 2010 by SinisterSS

[DaddyBuiltRacing]

Sweet so they were good 13 years ago, lets just jump for joy. They were mediocre last year even though their record appears to show them being better then that. The division of the big12 they played in is/was terrible. Take away Suh and their true colors would've been exposed. I will admit I was rooting for them to beat Texas though lol.

 

Penn St has been hurt in recruiting since joining the big10? The 2010 class was #6 nationally, yeah really hurting when it comes to grabbing recruits...2009 they were #15, thats back to back top 20 classes.

 

2006: #9 (ahead of tOSU) and the top rated big10 school

2007: #21 (little down year for them, but still 21 in the country)

2008: not ranked in top 25, this is really the only bad year for them

2009: #15

2010: #6

 

So how was recruting hurt by joining the big10? Pennsylvania is usually loaded with talent much like Ohio, Texas, Florida and California...can the same be said about Nebraska? Also how would ND suffer in recruiting, they basically play a big10 schedule mixed with a few pac10 games. The only thing that is going to hurt ND's recruiting is 1. Their enrollment standards and 2. They haven't been relivant except for 2 years in the last 20 years. The tradition that ND and Nebraska bring, would've been sweet ala 1995ish, not 2010 when no one cares about either until expansion talks pick up.

 

I do like Boise States move though. Teams like Boise St and TCU should get legitimite shots at a national title, all they do is go undefeated and then spank a "big boy" in a bcs game year after year. Instead of ND getting an automatic bid when they win 9 games, that bid can goto the winner of the MWC

[bicranium]

The talking heads mention Nebraska's recruiting possibly suffering because they won't be playing multiple games in the state of Texas anymore if any like they did in the Big 12. That could hurt their presence in the state of Texas and their ability to recruit Texas players. Sure, now they get a game every other year in PA or OH but neither state nor both states combined is even in the same galaxy when compared to Texas in terms of HS talent. Texas sends probably 300+ kids to D1 schools every year whereas OH and PA combined might send 100.

 

Nebraska currently has 26 Texas players on their roster. That's where they could get hurt as far as recruiting is concerned.

 

ND will never be hurt in recruiting because they recruit nationally and have God on their side. They go into Catholic schools across the country and are instantly in a player's top 3.

 

And Boise State is 2-4 in Bowl games since 2004 with losses to TCU, Boston College, East Carolina and Louisville. Wins against TCU and Oklahoma. Not really "going undefeated and spanking a big boy year after year." The last time TCU "spanked" a big boy in a bowl game was '98 Sun Bowl against USC. And USC was awful for some time before Carroll showed up and started cheating.

 

Speaking of which, was anyone else pretty shocked to see USC kinda got the book thrown at them? 30 scholarships, 2 year bowl ban, probation, their juniors and seniors can transfer freely and even be recruited by other programs, their #1 class from last year will probably be released from their letters of intent, vacating the 2004 national title and all the wins in the 2005 season. Pretty impressed that the NCAA actually went that hard at them. Truly expected nothing more than a slap on the wrist.

[SinisterSS]

The talking heads mention Nebraska's recruiting possibly suffering because they won't be playing multiple games in the state of Texas anymore if any like they did in the Big 12. That could hurt their presence in the state of Texas and their ability to recruit Texas players. Sure, now they get a game every other year in PA or OH but neither state nor both states combined is even in the same galaxy when compared to Texas in terms of HS talent. Texas sends probably 300+ kids to D1 schools every year whereas OH and PA combined might send 100.

 

Nebraska currently has 26 Texas players on their roster. That's where they could get hurt as far as recruiting is concerned.

 

ND will never be hurt in recruiting because they recruit nationally and have God on their side. They go into Catholic schools across the country and are instantly in a player's top 3.

 

And Boise State is 2-4 in Bowl games since 2004 with losses to TCU, Boston College, East Carolina and Louisville. Wins against TCU and Oklahoma. Not really "going undefeated and spanking a big boy year after year." The last time TCU "spanked" a big boy in a bowl game was '98 Sun Bowl against USC. And USC was awful for some time before Carroll showed up and started cheating.

 

Speaking of which, was anyone else pretty shocked to see USC kinda got the book thrown at them? 30 scholarships, 2 year bowl ban, probation, their juniors and seniors can transfer freely and even be recruited by other programs, their #1 class from last year will probably be released from their letters of intent, vacating the 2004 national title and all the wins in the 2005 season. Pretty impressed that the NCAA actually went that hard at them. Truly expected nothing more than a slap on the wrist.

NOT shocked at all, the NCAA did it to the University of Miami a few years ago, they dominated for a decade or more then all of a sudden couldn't do anything or recruit? USC is getting what they deserve. Here's a history reminder:

 

The Dennis Erickson Era (1989-1994)

Miami entered the following season as the number one team in the country, but a 28–21 upset loss to Ty Detmer and No. 16 BYU in the opener derailed both the team's national championship chances and Craig Erickson's nascent Heisman campaign. Later in the year, the Hurricanes lost to Notre Dame 29–20 in a game dubbed the "Final Conflict," as Notre Dame had decided to discontinue the 27-game rivalry, feeling the intensity of the series had reached an unhealthy level. Miami ended the season with a 46–3 Cotton Bowl Classic victory over No. 3 Texas in the 1991 Cotton Bowl in which the team was penalized a bowl- and school- record 16 times for 202 yards, including nine unsportsmanlike conduct or personal foul penalties. On one play, Randal Hill scored on a 48-yard touchdown reception and continued to sprint out of the end zone and up the Cotton Bowl tunnel, where he then pretended to shoot at the Longhorns with imaginary pistols. The program was widely criticized for its conduct, with Will McDonough of the Boston Globe likening the Cotton Bowl Classic display to a "wilding" and Bill Walsh calling it "the most disgusting thing he'd ever seen in college sports." After the season, the NCAA responded with the so-called "Miami Rule," which made it a 15-yard penalty to engage in excessive celebration or flagrant taunting.

 

Also during the off-season, Miami ended its 48-year status as an independent and joined the Big East Conference.

 

The 1991 Hurricanes captured the program's fourth national championship in nine years behind quarterback Gino Torretta and a linebacking corps that featured Jessie Armstead and Micheal Barrow. Miami's toughest test came in mid-November at then-No. 1 Florida State in the initial Wide Right game; with the No. 2 Hurricanes leading 17–16 in the final minute of the game, Florida State kicker Gerry Thomas' potential game-winning field goal attempt sailed "wide right" of the uprights.[59] Miami completed the second undefeated season in school history with a 22–0 shutout of No. 11 Nebraska in the 1992 Orange Bowl and finished first in the AP Poll, splitting the national championship with Coaches' Poll champ Washington.

 

Hurricane Andrew devastated much of South Florida in August 1992, causing the program to relocate its preseason practice sessions north to Dodgertown in Vero Beach. That season, Miami went 11–0 against the second-toughest schedule in the country, topping No. 3 Florida State in Wide Right II and No. 7 Penn State the following week in Beaver Stadium. Meanwhile, Torretta became the second Hurricane to win the Heisman Trophy, throwing for 19 touchdowns and 3,060 yards on the season and setting 11 school passing records during his career. Miami earned a trip to the 1993 Sugar Bowl, where the top-ranked Hurricanes were denied a repeat national championship by No. 2 Alabama, 34–13. The Sugar Bowl loss ended the program's 29-game winning streak, which dated to 1990.

 

The following two seasons yielded less success. In 1993, Miami lost three games in a season for the first time since 1984, failed to win the Big East for the first time since joining in 1991, and was shutout in the Fiesta Bowl by Arizona, leading some to wonder whether the program was in decline. In 1994, Miami defeated Georgia Southern in the season-opener for its 58th consecutive home win, setting an NCAA-record; the streak, which began in 1985, was snapped two weeks later when Washington defeated the Hurricanes 38–20 at the Orange Bowl. Led by All-American defensive tackle Warren Sapp and sophomore linebacker Ray Lewis, the team rebounded to earn a berth in the 1995 Orange Bowl, where No. 1 Nebraska outscored Miami 15–0 in the final quarter to win the game, 24–17, and the national championship.

 

With the threat of NCAA sanctions hovering over the program for a variety of infractions, Erickson stepped down after the 1994 season to become head coach of the NFL's Seattle Seahawks. Erickson departed Miami with a 63–9 record over six seasons and the highest winning percentage (.875) and most national championships (2) of any coach in school history.

The Butch Davis Era (1995-2000)

 

Several early candidates to replace Dennis Erickson, including former UM defensive coordinator and 1994 Sports Illustrated Coach of the Year Sonny Lubick, withdrew from consideration. Eventually Miami settled on former Hurricanes assistant and Dallas Cowboys defensive coordinator Butch Davis.

 

The Hurricanes finished Davis' first season with a record of 8-3, which may have drawn a bowl invitation. However, on December 20, 1995 the NCAA announced that Miami would be subject to severe sanctions for numerous infractions within the athletic department. Among the sanctions was a one-year ban from postseason participation and a scholarship reduction of 31 over a three year period beginning in 1996.

 

In 1994, Tony Russell, a former UM academic advisor, pleaded guilty to helping more than 80 student athletes, 57 of whom were football players, falsify Pell Grant applications in exchange for kickbacks from the players themselves. The scandal dated all the way back to 1989 and secured more than $220,000 in federal grant money. Federal officials later said that Russell had engineered "perhaps the largest centralized fraud ... ever committed" in the history of the Pell Grant program.

 

In late 1995, the NCAA concluded that, in addition to the fraudulent Pell Grants facilitated by Russell, the university had also provided or allowed over $400,000 worth of other, improper payments to Miami football players. The NCAA also found that the university had failed to wholly implement its drug testing program, and permitted three football student-athletes to compete without being subject to the required disciplinary measures specified in the policy. Finally, the NCAA concluded, the university had lost institutional control over the football program. Miami docked itself seven scholarships as part of a self-imposed sanction in 1995, and the NCAA took away another 24 scholarships over the next two years. As a result of the scandal, Sports Illustrated's Alexander Wolff wrote a cover story that Miami should at least temporarily shut down its football program. Further, On June 21, 1996, Miami football players broke into the apartment of the captain of Miami's track team and struck him repeatedly. In response, Davis suspended three key players for the coming 1996 season. Davis also suspended two other players who were involved in separate violent incidents.

 

The imposition of scholarship reductions led to a long and sometimes painful rebuilding period for the Hurricanes.

 

The low point for Miami came in 1997 when they posted a 5-6 record, the first losing season since Howard Schnellenberger's first year in 1979. The 1997 season saw the Hurricanes suffer one of the program's most humiliating losses, a 47-0 beating at the hands of in-state rival Florida State

[phil]

The only problem I have with this all is the smaller sports get the shaft. Ie: a swim team from texas has to make the trip to washington for a singles meet weds nite and wouldn't get back til Friday. Then have a large event in cal Saturday, the travel aspect would be awful.

[DaddyBuiltRacing]

Phil gets it, no one is thinking about the other sports, they just think about Football and Basketball.

 

Boise St is 2-1 against TCU since 2002, have beaten Oklahoma and won all their BCS bowl games. Now they are in a biggere conference compared to wht WAC, will be ranked top 3 pre-season, this will be the year they make it to the NCG, and unless they play tOSU I hope they win the damn thing

[SinisterSS]

Phil gets it, no one is thinking about the other sports, they just think about Football and Basketball.

 

Boise St is 2-1 against TCU since 2002, have beaten Oklahoma and won all their BCS bowl games. Now they are in a biggere conference compared to wht WAC, will be ranked top 3 pre-season, this will be the year they make it to the NCG, and unless they play tOSU I hope they win the damn thing

 

when Miami got busted it wasn't just the football players that were doing it, other athletes in other sports were too, but all in all when was the last time 70,000-100,000 people showed up to a swim event, tennis match, racquetball game, etc.... you get the point but the NCAA is punishing the University not the athletes, because the University is gonna be the one that suffers money wise, think about tickets sales they'll plummet, television exposure wont be there either

what conference did Boise State join?

[DaddyBuiltRacing]

Boise joined the Mountain West which is a step in the right direction. With all the new expansion shit taking place some are saying the Mountain West champion is poised to get an automatic BCS bid. Now that would only take place if the big12 totally implodes and is no longer a conference.

[2 Sweet]

Boise joined the Mountain West which is a step in the right direction. With all the new expansion shit taking place some are saying the Mountain West champion is poised to get an automatic BCS bid. Now that would only take place if the big12 totally implodes and is no longer a conference.

 

Agreed it's a step in the right direction, although I can't help but think of Boise's jump to the Mountain West as a lateral move. Yes they have Utah and BYU, but come on. Slightly better competition than the WAC, but they still won't be taken seriously until they join a real conference. I don't understand why they didn't try for the Pac10. Maybe the Pac10 is focusing on getting half of the Big12 instead?

[DaddyBuiltRacing]

TCu is in the WAC as well...The WAC now has BYU, Utah, TCU and Boise St, 3 of those 4 have BCS bowl victories in the last 5 years.

 

Who in the pac10 is legit besides USC?

Oregon is going to be terrible this year, UCLA, Washington, Washington St, Oregon ST, Arizona, Arizona St, Cal, Stanford oh and now Colorado...I mean thats not a real prestigous list anymore.

[2 Sweet]

Definitely not prestigious, but in most years those Pac10 teams are much stronger and more competitive than the Mountain West teams. I don't think anyone expects Air Force, UNLV, New Mexico, Wyoming, etc. to be as good as Cal, Stanford, ASU, Oreg. State, and so on. From top to bottom the Pac10 is stronger, especially if they add Texas, OU, and a handful of Big12 teams.

 

Pac10 has bigger schools, more money, more TV time, more exposure, all that jazz. If Boise really wanted to be taken seriously, they would step it up and join a real conference.

[DaddyBuiltRacing]

I would take the current roster from the MWC compared the the current Pac10 lineup. I am not saying every year they are going to be better, but this year they should be better as a whole compared to the pac11. Hell BYU, Utah, Boise St and TCU will be top 25 and Bolse and TCU will be top 5-7...who in the pac10 will be top 20?

[bicranium]

Utah to the Pac 10 is going around now. Boise didn't match up academically with the Pac 10 so they weren't an option. They go join TCU, Utah and BYU and then Utah goes and leaves them...lol.

[2 Sweet]

I would take the current roster from the MWC compared the the current Pac10 lineup. I am not saying every year they are going to be better, but this year they should be better as a whole compared to the pac11. Hell BYU, Utah, Boise St and TCU will be top 25 and Bolse and TCU will be top 5-7...who in the pac10 will be top 20?

 

This is true. But I'm thinking long term. TCU seems like the flavor of the month, I don't see them being consistently good. But you're right as far as this year is concerned. Eventually the Pac10 will bounce back though

 

Utah to the Pac 10 is going around now. Boise didn't match up academically with the Pac 10 so they weren't an option. They go join TCU, Utah and BYU and then Utah goes and leaves them...lol.

 

Ohhh, ok. That makes a little more sense then

[DaddyBuiltRacing]

Texas A&M to the SEC is official according to several sources...wtf are they thinking lol. They couldn't win shit in the big12 let alone the SEC, big 12's down to 9...