Issue 2

[BigOxley]

Basically, it took public service workers and told them that they would only be allowed to colectively bargin for wages. That's fine, but it told them to shove it in terms of continuing to expect not to contribute towards their own health insurance and pensions.

 

1. SB5 would have taken away third party arbitration. The "collective bargaining" for wages under SB5 would have left the final decision up to the employer.

 

If fire fighters want a 3% raise, and their city wants 0%. What do you think the city, as the final say, is going to choose? Not so much bargaining.

 

2. Most public employees pay MORE than 10%/15% for their benefits. I know I do.

[TTQ B4U]

no offense Tim but you do realize this is a direct effect on police/ fire fighters and medics. this would have removed the police's rights to bargain for necessity items like bullet proof vests.

 

as far as the health care costs I understand where you coming from but also remember the vast majority of the government employees are underpaid.

 

I do realize that. However, just like the school system, the Police and Firefighters need to fight for that hand in hand with the people by voting out the dip shits above them that don't give them the tools they need to do their job. Stop PROTECTING them with tenure and guaranteed job security. Stop REWARDING Them with retirement plans, pay raises and everything else. STOP allowing the less than effective superiors to have an army of yes-men and yes-women fight their battles and continue to suck more money into a broken system.

 

What are the unions doing to change anything?

Did they come to the table with a counter offer that broke that section out?

Did they put a plan in place to make that happen?

Did they build guidelines and expectations and any accountability into their counter offer?

How come I've not heard about any of that?

 

In my job as a Sales Director, I'm judged on my actions. If I don't LISTEN to my people, make good JUDGEMENTS on providing them what they need to do their job, and influence MEANINGFUL CHAGNE, then I'm not performaing to my Key Job Accountability and can be fired. Their bosses then should be held accountable...and that trend needs to continue up the food chain. Fighting to keep the system AS IS - IS NOT the solution.

 

It's not going to be easy, but then I absolutely believe these changes are necessary and the public would rally to support them even more if they supported themselves first and LEAD THE CHARGE.

 

In terms of pay, the last I check, public service was still a choice. I could make a lot more than I do at my current job too, but just like all the public sector employees out there, I made my decision on more than just money. What's not fair about that? For the record, I work for a not for profit company that is not in the public sector.

[TTQ B4U]

1. SB5 would have taken away third party arbitration. The "collective bargaining" for wages under SB5 would have left the final decision up to the employer.

If fire fighters want a 3% raise, and their city wants 0%. What do you think the city, as the final say, is going to choose? Not so much bargaining.

 

2. Most public employees pay MORE than 10%/15% for their benefits. I know I do.

 

 

Here are some questions for you.

 

 

• So how is that any different than the private sector?
  
• How is that any more unfair than where I work in the private sector?
  
• What makes public sector employees ENTITLED to a raise?
  
• What are the criteria being used to justify their raise?
  
• So if most public employees are already paying MORE than the minimum 15% that was being asked for, then what's the problem with raising the bar to a level that's already below the norm? I'm confused
  

[ForeverMaker]

Most teachers I know are taking pay freezes or cuts, as well as health care cuts ALREADY. This whole argument of public employees getting raises no matter what is just not true, but keep believing what you want.

 

The problem is this bill was so broad and dumb it was bound to fail.

 

Now let Kasich try to pass smaller bills. I bet he targets teachers first, because EVERYone has had that "bad teacher" so it is easy to play the pity card on the general public.

[RyM3rC]

It was reported by the local news this morning that 24 million was spent by the people against it, and 8 million was spent for people for it. So it is no surprise to me it failed, also why any information I tried to learn about it made me get past all the propaganda about how bad it is.

 

It's too bad that it sure seems like money buys votes in this America.

 

If policemen and firefighters and other public "servants" don't like their deal, I suspect there would be droves of people to fill their shoes and collect their paychecks. There are plenty of hard-working people that make less than $30k a year with no benefits, and those public employee wage and benefits packages look like gold to them.

[wagner]

Most teachers I know are taking pay freezes or cuts, as well as health care cuts ALREADY. This whole argument of public employees getting raises no matter what is just not true, but keep believing what you want.

 

The problem is this bill was so broad and dumb it was bound to fail.

 

Now let Kasich try to pass smaller bills. I bet he targets teachers first, because EVERYone has had that "bad teacher" so it is easy to play the pity card on the general public.

 

Kasich is like a poor mans version of Bush part II. He has no idea how to attach the budget problems and is going to burn this state to the ground.

[ForeverMaker]

If policemen and firefighters and other public "servants" don't like their deal, I suspect there would be droves of people to fill their shoes and collect their paychecks. There are plenty of hard-working people that make less than $30k a year with no benefits, and those public employee wage and benefits packages look like gold to them.

 

What is stopping those people from becoming a firefighter, policeman, or teacher now then? Oh yea typically those jobs suck and you have to attract people by offering... guess what? Decent salaries and benefits!

[TTQ B4U]

Most teachers I know are taking pay freezes or cuts, as well as health care cuts ALREADY.

 

Is that any different than the private sector world?

Wasn't the pay freeze a choice the unions voted on in place of other potential savings options?

 

This whole argument of public employees getting raises no matter what is just not true, but keep believing what you want.

 

So then by definition if public employees are not getting automatic raises the passing of the bill would have no impact on them? What's the rub then?

 

I'd love to hear more about the review process for various public sector jobs. Start with schools if you wish.

 

The problem is this bill was so broad and dumb it was bound to fail.

 

I agree, but where alternatives presented? What were the details of those alternatives? That would be a great current discussion as we're back to square one.

 

Now let Kasich try to pass smaller bills. I bet he targets teachers first, because EVERYone has had that "bad teacher" so it is easy to play the pity card on the general public.

 

So are you saying the public's own personal experience with "Bad teachers" was the center of this bil or why it was created or even how people voted? That's rhetorical as I'm sure your statement was.

[TTQ B4U]

What is stopping those people from becoming a firefighter, policeman, or teacher now then? Oh yea typically those jobs suck and you have to attract people by offering... guess what? Decent salaries and benefits!

 

So you're saying there isn't a line to get into the Police or Fire Acadamy ? New news to me. Last I heard there were limited openings and as expected, they take the most fit/qualified.

 

I don't see where either needs to leverage better salaries or benefits to attract candidates. I think there's plenty of demand and limited supply. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[zeitgeist57]

What is stopping those people from becoming a firefighter, policeman, or teacher now then? Oh yea typically those jobs suck and you have to attract people by offering... guess what? Decent salaries and benefits!

 

I live in UA, and back in 2009 I was at the City Registrars' office filing some documents. While I was waiting in the lobby, there were 6 or so guys that came in and filled their name on a sheet. One guy sheepishly asked the receptionist if "prior military experience" gave him preferential treatment. The woman, clearly having been asked that question before, replied that it would only matter at interviews if the candidate is selected. After he left I went over to ask the receptionist what was going on...

 

These guys - young and fit, mind you - were putting their names down to hopefully be selected for City Firefighter positions. Apparently there is a mandated window every couple of years that is opened to let new people enter in case someone was leaving. in 2009, there were ZERO open positions.

 

When I was there at 10am that day - the only day people can put down their names - there were 455 people that put their names down. The woman said there will likely be over a thousand guys that come in, hoping to be selected for a UA City Firefighter slot that day. Many of them knew there weren't any immediate open slots.

 

Ever heard of the DROP program for Columbus city cops and firefighters? Look it up...

 

TOO MUCH MONEY. Yeah, sure...it's tough being a firefighter or policeman and no one wants to do it... :gabe:

 

EDIT: I totally agree that SB5 was far too broad, and Kasich acted stupidly thinking that it would pass without being contested. Hopefully meaningful changes can occur in the public sector to help our government reduce deficits and improve our spending habits.

[RyM3rC]

...When I was there at 10am that day - the only day people can put down their names - there were 455 people that put their names down. The woman said there will likely be over a thousand guys that come in, hoping to be selected for a UA City Firefighter slot that day. Many of them knew there weren't any immediate open slots....

TOO MUCH MONEY. Yeah, sure...it's tough being a firefighter or policeman and no one wants to do it... :gabe:

 

Yeah, I tried for years and years to get onboard with UA back when I lived there. It is extremely competitive and people don't leave.

 

I wish there was a "get rid of the OSHP" issue on the ballot.

[smokinHawk1647545499]

no offense Tim but you do realize this is a direct effect on police/ fire fighters and medics. this would have removed the police's rights to bargain for necessity items like bullet proof vests.

 

as far as the health care costs I understand where you coming from but also remember the vast majority of the government employees are underpaid.

 

no offense but you are completely misinformed, there was a provision put in place after the first draft to change that, so they could negotiate for safety equipment.

 

plus i do not agree that they are underpaid. especially for what they do and the saturation of the market.

[BigOxley]

Here are some questions for you.

 

 

• So how is that any different than the private sector?
  
• How is that any more unfair than where I work in the private sector?
  
• What makes public sector employees ENTITLED to a raise?
  
• What are the criteria being used to justify their raise?
  
• So if most public employees are already paying MORE than the minimum 15% that was being asked for, then what's the problem with raising the bar to a level that's already below the norm? I'm confused
  

 

Its different because there are NO private sector public service jobs. How many Halliburton police officers and firefighters are there? You can't compare the two.

 

No one said public servants they feel entitled to raises. If you don't like what your local police and fire fighters are getting, vote out your local politicians.

 

I honestly don't know how to merit base pay police and fire fighters. How many tickets police write? That would go over GREAT! Making sure firefighters responding to all the calls for service THEY ALREADY RESPOND TO?

 

The problem with the paying more into the benefits is all the other bullshit in the law. Namely taking away third party arbitration/collective bargaining/striking for teachers.

 

Private sector workers can form unions and strike whenever they want to.

[zeitgeist57]

What is stopping those people from becoming a firefighter, policeman, or teacher now then? Oh yea typically those jobs suck and you have to attract people by offering... guess what? Decent salaries and benefits!

 

Yeah, I tried for years and years to get onboard with UA back when I lived there. It is extremely competitive and people don't leave.

 

I wish there was a "get rid of the OSHP" issue on the ballot.

 

My brother-in-law is on City Council, and I'm part of UA Civic Association. UA Firefighters' total compensation (Salary, Paid-for benefits/insurance, Deferred compensation) was over $80k a year starting. That is fucking ridiculous.

 

I am all for ammo and bullet-proof vests for cops, hoses and new fire trucks for the firemen...but:

 

1)When you have that much supply and demand for labor, it's time to change the system.

2)When you use "Collective Bargaining" to demand $900k Sutphen 110ft ladder fire-trucks when 98% of UA structures are 2-story, it's time to change the system.

3)When you build new fire stations that are more than triple the square footage for the same amount of firemen and equipment in a neutral-growth populus, it's time to change the system.

[BigOxley]

no offense but you are completely misinformed, there was a provision put in place after the first draft to change that, so they could negotiate for safety equipment.

 

Without third party arbitration (which SB5 removes) there is NO NEGOTIATING. The final decision goes to the local government, i.e. the police and fire fighters employers. That is not a negotiation

[zeitgeist57]

It's not that I want to perform on par with Union labor...it's that the rest of the world performs at MY level, and I need help!!!

[RyM3rC]

Without third party arbitration (which SB5 removes) there is NO NEGOTIATING. The final decision goes to the local government, i.e. the police and fire fighters employers. That is not a negotiation

 

As nasty as this might sound, wouldn't you just go to your boss and say "Gimme this or I quit!" ???

 

I mean honestly, if it's that bad then you owe it to yourself to find a job elsewhere. If not, be thankful you're not one of the people making $20k/year, paying off student loans, with no benefits, no job security, etc. who spends 40 hours a week trying to find something better. They would love to have your (or any public) job.

[zeitgeist57]

As nasty as this might sound, wouldn't you just go to your boss and say "Gimme this or I quit!" ???

 

I mean honestly, if it's that bad then you owe it to yourself to find a job elsewhere. If not, be thankful you're not one of the people making $20k/year, paying off student loans, with no benefits, no job security, etc. who spends 40 hours a week trying to find something better. They would love to have your (or any public) job.

 

+100000000000000

 

SB5 - great as a door-opening government tool to reform the public sector - was extraordinary lousy public-policy. Ultimately, we are now in a position post-Recession where there are a lot of able-bodied and able-minded people that want to help. I feel that Unions used scare-tactics to protect an unsustainable way of life for those that are lucky enough to have a job in the public sector...at the expense of the taxpayers making their lives better each year with little in return.

 

Congratulations on the teachers taking voluntary pay cuts. However, the rest of public sector employees better realize that more needs to be done. Stop biting the hand that feeds you.

 

I'm done commenting in this thread. Thanks to everyone's contributions on both sides of this issue. It truly is what makes this country so great.

[TTQ B4U]

Its different because there are NO private sector public service jobs. How many Halliburton police officers and firefighters are there? You can't compare the two.

 

Your original point was there were no collective bargening for wages and that the final decision would be up the employers. My point is that SO WHAT...that's how it is in the private sector and it works just fine. I don't have a "collective bargaining" group to help me go get more money from my employer. That is up to the EMPLOYEE to justify and their employer to make the final decision. How is that unfair or not inline with the rest of the America? Why should public sector jobs be any different? What makes them so special? If the public sector had measurable Key Job Accountability points that were worth a shit that agreement and clarity would exist. The employee would know exactly what they were measured on to be considered for a raise. However, just as with private sector work, there are no guarantees. That's life man. Put on some big boy pants and deal with it.

 

We can absolutely compare the two. The duties of the job don't matter one bit. Why would they?

 

 

 

No one said public servants they feel entitled to raises. If you don't like what your local police and fire fighters are getting, vote out your local politicians. I honestly don't know how to merit base pay police and fire fighters. How many tickets police write? That would go over GREAT! Making sure firefighters responding to all the calls for service THEY ALREADY RESPOND TO?

You pretty much did say that. You said, "If fire fighters want a 3% raise, and their city wants 0%. What do you think the city, as the final say, is going to choose? Not so much bargaining."

 

So I'm asking that if your saying the above is unfair or out of line to back it up. Your post is implying you support the public sector to be entitled to a 3% raise if they want it and I'm asking you to show me how they are reviewed and justify it. You can't and neither can they....not sufficiently anyway. They have all the right in world to bargin for more money. How about they stop using the word BARGIN and replace it with JUSTIFY more money. They won't open that can of worms because then they will have to actually work and prove themselves. Instead they want to bitch but not be accountable. Time to end that shit.

 

The problem with the paying more into the benefits is all the other bullshit in the law. Namely taking away third party arbitration/collective bargaining/striking for teachers.

What's bullshit about taking away a teachers right to strike? Why the fuck would I want to approve giving them the right to bitch about paying more into their benefits or retirements? Yeah, my EXPECTATION is that public service NEEDS to pay into both to the same level as the private sector. If they don't like it, then quit their job and go elsewhere. That's my option. Last I check my job is employment at will. I see no reason they should be any different. They've done a PISS POOR job of showing me or the rest of the world any good reason either. Outside their own self serving ones.

 

Private sector workers can form unions and strike whenever they want to.

and that's not necessary any longer either. I say fuck unions, they aren't needed and I side with companies who are out to break them. When I was at Panasonic, it was cheaper for them to shut down the entire Building #1 in NJ and move into a brand new one in Elgin, IL than it was to keep the 3,000+ union workers in NJ in their current situation. That's fucked up when it's cheaper to shut down and move than to keep what is in place.

 

So they did. All 3,000 people were offered their jobs but they had to move on their own dime to keep it. Guess how many of those "hard working" people did? Less than 100. Good!

[TTQ B4U]

As nasty as this might sound, wouldn't you just go to your boss and say "Gimme this or I quit!" ???

 

I mean honestly, if it's that bad then you owe it to yourself to find a job elsewhere. If not, be thankful you're not one of the people making $20k/year, paying off student loans, with no benefits, no job security, etc. who spends 40 hours a week trying to find something better. They would love to have your (or any public) job.

 

 

^^^ RymerC is spot on. Gimme, Gimme, Gimme is what I'm hearing from the public sector. They seem to think their entitled to raises and can hold the public they serve hostage when they don't get their way. Bullshit. Time to end that way of thinking and hold people accountable.

[TTQ B4U]

My brother-in-law is on City Council, and I'm part of UA Civic Association. UA Firefighters' total compensation (Salary, Paid-for benefits/insurance, Deferred compensation) was over $80k a year starting. That is fucking ridiculous.

 

I am all for ammo and bullet-proof vests for cops, hoses and new fire trucks for the firemen...but:

 

1)When you have that much supply and demand for labor, it's time to change the system.

2)When you use "Collective Bargaining" to demand $900k Sutphen 110ft ladder fire-trucks when 98% of UA structures are 2-story, it's time to change the system.

3)When you build new fire stations that are more than triple the square footage for the same amount of firemen and equipment in a neutral-growth populus, it's time to change the system.

 

^^^ THIS Because YES, it needs read twice.

[BigOxley]

As nasty as this might sound, wouldn't you just go to your boss and say "Gimme this or I quit!" ???

 

I mean honestly, if it's that bad then you owe it to yourself to find a job elsewhere. If not, be thankful you're not one of the people making $20k/year, paying off student loans, with no benefits, no job security, etc. who spends 40 hours a week trying to find something better. They would love to have your (or any public) job.

 

i understand we having a civil discussion, but fuck that!

 

i have zero debt, other than my mortgage. and i have a 2-year degree and a 4-year degree. i have done nothing but want a public service job since i was a little kid. i have worked for that all my life. i knew that public service jobs have good pay and good benefits. that is part of why i chose the the path i did.

 

but, if someone makes 20k/year, has student loans, a POS car, baby mama drama, no health insurance.... that is not my problem, i made the right decisions in my life.

 

the job i have, i will NEVER make 200k a year. there a plenty of private sector jobs that do.

[RyM3rC]

... i have worked for that all my life. i knew that public service jobs have good pay and good benefits. that is part of why i chose the the path i did...

 

Good for you knowing what you wanted, going after it, and getting it. That says a lot. I truly appreciate the people (and this may very well be you) that want to SERVE the public- be it in the military, as a LEO, or whatever.

That being said, as others in this thread have shown there is a very high demand for some of these jobs.

 

If my boss had someone that could acceptably perform my job tasks for less money, I'd be out the door that minute. Why do you think your job is/should be different?

[El Karacho1647545492]

page 3 is tl;dr material.

 

Bottom line, SB5 has the right idea in mind but Kasich saw his election as a mandate to bring sweeping hyper-conservative legislation in. The people have spoken and what they said was that while they agree with his principles of conservatism, trying to neuter one group of people is unacceptable. IMO this may be the beginning of Americans stepping up for some shared sacrifice. I don't think the public sector employee is saying that they're entitled to everything they currently have and taking any of it away is bad. I think people are simply saying that SB5 unfairly targets one group of people, and that while some of its changes are necessary (merit-based raises for one), they cannot stomach the whole of SB5 just to make a couple of those changes. I think Kasich needs to start small with merit-based pay and, although it unfortunately increases the government's role, a whole hell of a lot more auditing in how dollars are spent (that UA fire dept expenditure story is a great example of wasted dollars). the solution to that, however, is not to take away their right to argue their case.

[QUIKSVT]

Where do you guys work that your benefits suck so bad in the private bus. world? I work in both public and private sectors. I know there are companies out there that provide way better benefits than my public job. And SB 5 was never about the 10/15%.