TheMustangStampede Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Alright, when the car is in time with timing light, it won't run very well. Adjust it till it's out of time and it run like it should. Can anyone point to a possible cause. We started thinking about the timing marks on the balancer, because it's a 28 oz instead of a 50 oz, however it was balanced at the machine shop and to like .002 gram or something. We made sure we got the right plugs for the gt-40 x head they call for a specific plug, we pulled intake then the valve covers and rechecked all the rockers and the rods everything is in order there. We plan on checking fuel pressure next. When it's running rough and hard to idle, it will backfire or pop in the inake. That point to a timing issue. However with the light and the timing mark it's good, it run's best out away from the timing mark.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schmuckingham Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Timing should be at 10 base for a boosted car. What distributor? How old is the TFI? MSD box? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKilbourne Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Is your pointer where it's supposed to be? I've seen them bent all to hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blurtoyou Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Distributor one tooth off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidBaustert Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Distributor one tooth off? This Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMustangStampede Posted May 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Brand new MSD Distributor, it's not one tooth off. We are getting ready to pull the front off and re check to make sure the dimples timing marks are lined up when motor is TDC. It was an after market double roller set which had keeper slots all the way around we think that this may be culprit. I know it's not 180 out, because you could swap wires on the distributor and test that. Fuel pressure is good so it's not a lean condition. It's 41 when key is on then it settles at 39. My buddies car had this problem and his fuel pump was going out, causing it to be lean. They say that if you have a pop while running it is about 22 degrees out of time or so (WE DO) but it can be less or more depending on twisting the distru. If you have intake pop when trying to start you have 180 degrees out which could be solved by moving you wires on distributor. We think it's like one keeper over on the timing chain set. But not sure how or why, other then 4 people talking while working. I mean anyone who has tore one down knows TDC on # 1 line your timing marks dimples with each other install keeper and bolt cam and crank down to tq spec. We are beyond frustrated and this just has to be the problem. if it's not I will be asking for help again. I have a feeling that we have ruled out all other possible issues. We have pulled distru and made sure that it's on the right tooth multiple times. Last thing to check is timing marks, I actually hope that whoever placed them on had it a keeper over. I didn't mess with that I was actually doing something else at the time. Thanks for the reply, I will update in a few days, we all taking a break from it, for a day or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Distributor one tooth off? There is no "one tooth off" on his car, as long as you have adjustment to within range the distributor is fine. Verify TDC with a piston stop, mark TDC, and set timing with a digital light that will allow you to set advance through the light. You sure you are on number 1 with the timing light? (Front left if looking at the motor) Are you sure you have the Spout out while checking timing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMustangStampede Posted May 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Thanks rl let my try to clear it up some more. We are stumped this is motor rebuild number 7 or 8 for between me and two guys helping me and this is my dads first. All others you get it within range where it runs and idles, by using well know common practice module pointed to front corner of battery, and button towards #1 when TDC. Start it get a light on it adjust it then pull pill and ensure everything is still same if so tighten down bolt and insert pill. Every other motor was fine doing this, this motor not so much.. Afterwards we have needed to adjust rocker arms and set base idle, but this motor is being difficult Yes we had top dead center and yes we have used the light we can get it to run without intake pop, but if it's way off the timing mark so we can not pop the the pill back in and be done with it. We are on using number 1 cyclinder for TDC. When you say mark TDC, we have two marks we have one on the distru to id #1 electrode. We also have a timing mark on balancer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 I'm saying you need to verify the TDC mark on the balancer. Using a piston stop is the best way to do it. If you arent sure how then use Google and figure it out. It is very common for them to be off, I've seen them 30+ degrees off with aftermarket cranks and balancers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMustangStampede Posted May 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Please don't laugh we used a small rod, as a piston stop. TDC on the balancer meaning the 0 mark on balancer or should it be marked as TDC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 There is normally 5-10* of dwell, thats why you use a piston stop and not a dial indicator. All that matters is thats the timing pointer points to the TDC mark on the balancer when the piston is at TDC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedfocus1647545489 Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Sounds like Rob has you on the right track already but has the pointer been changed at any point? I think there are 2 different locations (10 and 11 o'clock?). Either way, verifying TDC would verify if it's right or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMustangStampede Posted May 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 There is normally 5-10* of dwell, thats why you use a piston stop and not a dial indicator. All that matters is thats the timing pointer points to the TDC mark on the balancer when the piston is at TDC. Ok we will check, the balancer to a stock 50 oz blancer, we will line up the key ways and see if the marks are correct if not we will have to fab up some marks with fine sharpie or something. We will also check TDC with the timing pointer and TDC on balancer. We even thought about the balancer marks being off early in the day, because we were stumped. As to why this is happening? We are like 99% percent sure we didn't put chain set on wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMustangStampede Posted May 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Sounds like Rob has you on the right track already but has the pointer been changed at any point? I think there are 2 different locations (10 and 11 o'clock?). Either way, verifying TDC would verify if it's right or not. The timing pointer has not been changed, I will also look to see if there are 2 ways to put pointer in... What should it be 10 or 11? Who do you know which one is right or wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schmuckingham Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Might want to try a stock distributor, I have seen 50/50 on the MSD distributors actually working Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedfocus1647545489 Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 The timing pointer has not been changed, I will also look to see if there are 2 ways to put pointer in... What should it be 10 or 11? Who do you know which one is right or wrong. I believe 10 o'clock is typical of the late 302s and the 351 Windsor is 11 but it had been forever since I have seen that info. I'll see if I can dig up my old book of notes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbracing81 Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 On those 5.0's you have to pull the spout connector to accuratly adjust timing. Have you tried this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMustangStampede Posted May 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 (edited) On those 5.0's you have to pull the spout connector to accuratly adjust timing. Have you tried this? Yes we thought we had and pulled pill to make final tweak, put pill back in and it was no good. I'm going to check balancer tonight or tomorrow, this guy has a great video on using a piston stop and marking your balancer for a new tdc or 0 degree mark. Gonna set tdc on comp stroke mark balancer then reverse till it hits stop again mark that mark divide the distance and mark a new TDC unless of course it is the current mark then I will continue on with that mark. Edited May 18, 2012 by TheMustangStampede Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMustangStampede Posted May 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Might want to try a stock distributor, I have seen 50/50 on the MSD distributors actually working We picked up MSD, because we had same issue with the stock one. It's either the balancer or perhaps we are 180 out I don't think it's 180 out, but it still could be a possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schmuckingham Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Switching from a 50oz balancer to a 28 has nothing to do with the timing, that is just for the crank weights if its not 0 balanced. Most stroker cranks are a 28oz balance so I would assume you either have a bad balancer, the key way is broken or the distributor is out of whack. If it runs fine with the spout out and runs like crap with it in than its electrical for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMustangStampede Posted May 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2012 Switching from a 50oz balancer to a 28 has nothing to do with the timing, that is just for the crank weights if its not 0 balanced. Most stroker cranks are a 28oz balance so I would assume you either have a bad balancer, the key way is broken or the distributor is out of whack. If it runs fine with the spout out and runs like crap with it in than its electrical for sure. Runs same with it in or out, the spout just closes the cicuit or makes it complete so the electrics know what do after that. The balancer is 50 oz that was blanaced to 28oz by Watson Ruppel. I'm gonna check and mark true TDC tomorrow hopefully. The key way is not broken, just came back from shop anything not in working order has been replaced, some items in working order were replaced for after market ones. It run no different on stock Distru compared to MSD both run the same. After I mark true TDC on the balancer by taking the compression stroke to piston stop make mark, then reverse direction to piston stop to get the exhaust stroke mark divide the distance and mark True TDC then set balancer to mark and see whats up. If still the same we are probably out 180 or the timing cover will have to come off to verify that timing marks are lined up when on true TDC. If all is well all over we back to searching. After RL mentioned a piston stop. I found a guy with 2 351 ford mustangs on youtube he shows you how he made a piston stop how to mark it and talks about the old stock balancers shifting or wearing out there rubber noise damping do hickey lol. He said until he mark True TDC on his balancer he could not get his car to run correctly and was giving him headaches. Video above didn't relaize link was jacked, i fixed it. very interesting and I have to give +100 to RL .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbracing81 Posted May 18, 2012 Report Share Posted May 18, 2012 Who put the cam in? Perhaps the cam and crank gears are not line up correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMustangStampede Posted May 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2012 Who put the cam in? Perhaps the cam and crank gears are not line up correctly. I put the cam in, if they were not lined up that would have chewed the gears correct? The cam gear has no marks on it and I drained oil once and there were no shavings are anything that would suggest gears grinding or not being lined up. I can see the cam gear and it looks fine. If the gears your talking about are the double roller timing set. I'm like 99% percent sure that they are lined up with the timing dimples. It will be the last thing we check if we cannot figure it out, to avoid pulling timing cover off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbracing81 Posted May 18, 2012 Report Share Posted May 18, 2012 I put the cam in, if they were not lined up that would have chewed the gears correct? The cam gear has no marks on it and I drained oil once and there were no shavings are anything that would suggest gears grinding or not being lined up. I can see the cam gear and it looks fine. If the gears your talking about are the double roller timing set. I'm like 99% percent sure that they are lined up with the timing dimples. It will be the last thing we check if we cannot figure it out, to avoid pulling timing cover off. If they are not lined up it would not physically hurt anything. Have you checked all of your grounds to make sure they are all ok? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMustangStampede Posted May 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2012 If they are not lined up it would not physically hurt anything. Have you checked all of your grounds to make sure they are all ok? Grounds are correct they we had to move two to the right location had them in each others location, and that was the first thing we shock down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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