TTQ B4U Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Its neat how 200 some years of "Merica has changed 2,000 some years of history perhaps, but are you saying you'd rather live according to the law some 2,000 years ago or today? rhetorical as you can't go back in time. So here's a downside to being married - the couple has financial problems, for whatever reason. Being married means your credit is tied together, so rather than just having one of the two file for bankruptcy, allowing the other person in the relationship to salvage their credit and still be able to buy a house/car/whatever is needed, they both take the hit no matter what and are both fucked for the next 7 years. The reality is that the above needs to be that way. If the couple together has financial problems, then together they need to own them just the same. You can't go around passing the bad financial times off on just 1/2 of the parties involved and having them go belly up and then in turn taking the good only when it suites you. If one party can afford to buy a car or house or whatever they need, then that person should be paying off the debt their partner incurred and thus avoiding a bankruptcy or at the worst case be put in a 13 whereby they pay back the debt over time via a court ordered payment schedule. Having fucked up financial sense and poor credit won't be any more a benefit if you're single either as the bitch will drain you just the same. Real-talk. There are plenty of guys that go pussy poor funding a girl with no sense. You can call that a downside of marriage, but I'll take my case whereby I "married up" and have wife who's an attorney. :fa: Most married people I've talked to say that there is usually little if any benefit to filing taxes jointly, and they often go back and forth. So that's not really that huge of a benefit.Depends on the financial situation and what they each earn. Lots of variables so nothing here is solid in all cases, but in general if there's one solid bread winner and one that doesn't make much, they will likely file separately. Main reason is because once you calculate their adjusted gross income the disparity of incomes if filed jointly would cause the lower earner to lose some deductions. In our case my wife made as much and in some cases more than me so we filed jointly. Also, lets say you have a sole proprietor photography business that your wife has nothing to do with, and your wife has a lawyer business that you have nothing to do with. You get sued for everything you've got because you accidentally ran over a kid playing in the street. They can also try and take your wife's business since the law sees you as one person. If you weren't married, then your wife couldn't be touched, and you would still have her business as a form of income.^^ not necessarily true. all depends on how you set up your finances. I have near zero worries about a personal injury or civil case as we have extensively leveraged our personal assets/property, cars, stocks business assets/property, investments and stocks/IRA's with protection goals in place including a foreign asset protection trust. Remember, I married a very smart attorney who knows very smart attorneys who focus on estate planning. Nothing we do goes without a strong financial asset and protection goal in place. Most all of our stuff is very well protected. Hospital visitation rights? If you tell them such and such is your partner then I doubt they will be calling the state to see if you have a valid marriage license. No but if there's family involved and tough decisions to be made you're nothing to her legally to make those calls or fight her family who may have differing opinions on the matter. Orphanages used to be run by (gasp) churches, which again used to also be in charge of marriage. So I'm willing to bet that if they saw you as being married, regardless of legal status, and you appeared to be responsible adults, then they probably would not have had a problem with you adopting a child. If you and your partner go to adopt a child without a marriage contract, and you split up, it will be no less ugly. I have money on it being worse. Getting the initial adoption paperwork worked out isn't where I would focus any concern. It's where things go wrong that you need to form protection for all. Skipping the legality of marriage means each partner has to work a little harder to keep the other happy or else it is easier to leave, instead of saying "oh now that we are married I don't have to try any more since its such a pain for you to leave, I have you trapped". Not true. Have a kid and live in a "Partnership" with whomever you like, should a split happen it's not just as easy and up and leaving whenever you want. Marriage is no more a trap than living like you're married. Post 1991 you won't need to obtain a divorce, but you will likely be making friends with a lawyer and working out the separation in other ways. The problem with child support is that all too often it isn't actually used on the kids. I'm not sure what I think of alimony.^^ the same is true when married couples are in the pre-divorce stage. often times the kids have been seen as an expense long before a court orders the money be called child support. So yeah, any supposed "benefit" of a legal marriage isn't really so. Depends on what you're looking for in terms of marriage and how you define a benefit. IMO if you're not going to have kids then there's no reason to get married. Just stay single friends with benefits that perhaps are more committed to one another in bed. To me and the wife we take marriage as a contract and live by our principles to raise our kids together. We've strongly leveraged our incomes and financial goals to achieve what neither of us could have done alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Jones Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Damn chad, sorry to hear that! I hope it all works out for you. I bet most of the "say no to marriage" people on here dont even have girl friends, because they live in their parents basement playing video games.. :dumb: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODoyle Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 I'd get a divorce with grammar like that,too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copperhead Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 To me and the wife we take marriage as a contract and live by our principles to raise our kids together. We've strongly leveraged our incomes and financial goals to achieve what neither of us could have done alone. you are a very rare exception in this regard sometime I need to talk to you about all of these asset protections. I don't have much in the way of assets but I'd still like to protect what I can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck531 Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Since no one has said it.. why are you (the OP) getting a divorce in the first place? Who cheated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Maker Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 because it's a binding contract and is protected under law. you get tons of breaks in taxes and in different ways too. just the same you will held to the laws of a contract when it's dissolved. That doesn't explain why. Joint assets should be considered 50/50, that's it (and they are even if you aren't married). There's no reason a married couple should get tax breaks just because they are married. Marriage as a legal construct makes no sense. When kids enter into the picture, that's a whole different ball of wax. But that has nothing to do with 2 people being married, from a legal standpoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Maker Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 I'm often jealous my dog can lick his own nuts :no: Get some peanut butter and he will do that for you too. :gabe: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Maker Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 I bet most of the "say no to marriage" people on here dont even have girl friends, because they live in their parents basement playing video games.. I've been with my partner (female) for over 5 years, living together for almost 4, we are fully committed to each other and have 0 interest in getting married. We are buying a house on Friday. We just celebrated our 5 year in Hawaii and exchanged rings as a symbol of our commitment to each other. We exchanged rings on a beach in between hiking and dinner. http://www.columbusracing.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=563&pictureid=6466 I expect coffee and photography lessons as my pament in winning that bet. :megusta: Someone we just know spent as much on their wedding as we did on Hawaii & our down payment for our house. They are working off credit card debt and student loans, we have 0 debt until Friday on the house. :dumb: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 That doesn't explain why. Joint assets should be considered 50/50, that's it (and they are even if you aren't married). Why wouldn't something brought into a relationship between 2 people while they are together sharing things not be split 50/50? I don't follow it no being that way. They are Joint Assets not seperate assets. There's no reason a married couple should get tax breaks just because they are married. Marriage as a legal construct makes no sense. Your opinion may vary but for many people / generations there's a belief that marraige is a good foundation for society as a whole to engage in. Two people who care about one another, work to have common understandings/agreements, practice self discipline and raise kids together all wrapped around a commitment that again often is religious in some fashion but for the protection of each is also a legal business contract. Novel concept eh? IMO the culture of our country is falling apart and it's easily seen in the attitudes of the younger throw away generations that have a here today gone tommorrow I don't give a shit it's your problem and I'm entitled to everything attitude. The idea of tax breaks is to give a couple starting out a little something extra so they can begin living the American Dream or at least what once used to be seen and work for as such. Today people not only don't give a shit but are at a point where they don't even want to try to make it work so they avoid the whole damn thing. August 2 marked our 23 anniversary together so I'm a little biased. Marraige ain't easy, never was, but IMO if you're both committed then you should be able to work through just about everything. All depends on how much each person cares....and that goes directly back to my description of people's attitudes today. No reflection on the OP'er as I don't know them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Bastard Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 fwiw, me and my wife have been happily married for 4 years now. my wife used to take the not wanting to get married standpoint because to her "it is just a piece of paper". she thanked me for talking her into it as she sees it as a good idea now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKilbourne Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Getting half of his 401k isn't part of the raping....she's entitled to it just as she was when they were married. It's part of their joint assets earned while married. That doesn't change when you get divorced. No different than if you were 50/50 in a business with another person. Any earnings and growth during that business venture are joint. Marriage is a contract...a business contract. Same with raising kids. Mothers and Fathers have a responsibility to pay for the kids and support them until they are 18 whether they are married or not. I'm even more for child support as the kids are the ones who suffer if a parent doesn't pay. That's why in cases with children courts usually appoint a guardian ad litem. They are there to take legal action on behalf of a minor who isn't often represented in a divorce. If it kills you you thinking about it, think about how their kid feels.....do that for a minute and I bet that's the only minute that kid got. It's obvious that you see marriage as a "business contract" which is sad. It kills me that he pays for most of the things for the kids already and has to give this fucking worthless whore money that most likely isn't ever even used on the kids. She deserves nothing. If marriage really was a business contract, then she wouldn't get shit since she was the one who broke the contract by being a loose bitch. Just saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 What I see here are a lot of people looking for "what's in it for them from marriage" instead of what if really offers in terms of commitment and accountabilty to the other person. Stop looking at it as if it's about you. Once you make a commitment to someone in marriage, it's no longer about living for what's in it for you or even the two of you as a couple, it's all about the other person. If both people focus on the other person first, you will both find happiness. Same with kids. Raise your kids that way and instill that same belief in how to view others in them and you'll be fine. Otherwise, you'll be in the pool of 99% of parents with selfish bratty kids giving you a hard time in the store as you try and look at buying shit for yourself. Kids get that attiude direclty from those that raise them. Marraige is more than just a commitment to you only. People do it in religious manners to bear withness before their God and to make a commitment in their eyes to God. They do it in a court of law to profess the same legal binding contract in front of society and the state who then holds each accountable to meet that contract. Many don't get married and claim to have the same strong commitment, etc....but it's not the same. Contract law 101, there have to be terms, conditions and consequences holding people accountable otherwise, it's not worth the paper it isn't written on and in the end, couple splitting up will still end up in court seperating joint assets just the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) It's obvious that you see marriage as a "business contract" which is sad. It kills me that he pays for most of the things for the kids already and has to give this fucking worthless whore money that most likely isn't ever even used on the kids. She deserves nothing. If marriage really was a business contract, then she wouldn't get shit since she was the one was broke the contract by being a loose bitch. Just saying. Marraige is a contract, that's a fact not sad. There's a purpose to impose the protection for each through a marraige contract. If you're a religious person, it's typical a contract between two people and their God. The state sees it as a contract between the two people too. You're upset about a friends situation but he made the commitment to those kids and to his wife and did so with a full understanding of the consequences. (or at least he's responsible for having insured he had a full understanding) He's 50% liable and can't walk away nor does he have the right to impose how he thinks she should spend the money. Perhaps it sucks in his situation but IMO if he's focused on all that, his eye is off the ball. Go through the motions and move on already. You nor him determine what she deserves. He made that 50% agreement on their wedding day and like it or not each party deserves to have that agreement held strong. If you or him feel she breached the contract that's fine, but accroding to the very same contract in Ohio, it doesn't entitle him to anything different. If he doesn't like that then that's why the court system is there. Go fight. In short, he never fully understood the details behind a marraige contract. It's not that the contract is bad or the courts aren't upholding what it said, he just had a very poor understanding of how it all works or what he got into. Most have no clue and again, I hate to say it but most don't take the time to understand. (see my previous paragraph about people not giving a shit) People just run off and get married and pop out babies all the time with nearly zero clue as to what they are really committing to and then go off thinking the are entitle to this, that and the other. Part of what my wife really hated about being a family lawyer is 99% of the people in contested divorces thought they were family and contract lawyers themselves when in fact they don't even understand the first thing about either. Edited August 7, 2012 by TTQ B4U Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Marriage tax break? WTF is that? We get hit with a major marriage tax penalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2pointslow Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 double tap.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Someone we just know spent as much on their wedding as we did on Hawaii & our down payment for our house. They are working off credit card debt and student loans, we have 0 debt until Friday on the house. :dumb: oh...and congrats on both the anniverasary and house. just remember, unless you set it up otherwise, correctly, with an attorney ahead of time, if you split, you won't end up in divorce court fighting for the house but you will likely end up in civil court should the shit ever hit the fan. seriously, if you BOTH haven't discussed this ahead of time and met with an attorney before you ink the deal, regardless of how the paperwork is made out, it's fair game for possible hell later..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Maker Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Many don't get married and claim to have the same strong commitment, etc....but it's not the same. That's a little short sided I think. As short sided as me saying everything about marriage is foolish, or everyone who get's married is a fool. I don't' think that, it's just not right for us. It might be right for some. I just don't see where anything legal should enter into the equation. oh...and congrats on both the anniverasary and house Thanks! We are very excited about the house. I still owe everyone here pics from Hawaii... they will get posted up here sometime when everything slows down a little bit. :lolguy: seriously, if you BOTH haven't discussed this ahead of time ... We've had pretty extensive conversations about our assets and soon to be debt and have 100% the same understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRTurbo04 Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Rock solid prenup here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 That's a little short sided I think. As short sided as me saying everything about marriage is foolish, or everyone who get's married is a fool. I don't' think that, it's just not right for us. It might be right for some. I just don't see where anything legal should enter into the equation. What do you think is short sighted? Living together as a committed couple isn't the same as signing a contract that holds each party legally accountable. I never said it was foolish just not sound business practice and like it or not a union of any type can and often does have implications well beyond emotions, especially in times of distress. Visit with an estate planner or family lawyer on the matter and you'll see plenty of reasons why the legalities of marriage are in place for those that choose to go that route. They will also be able to advise you on ways outside marriage to protect said assets for everyone. We've had pretty extensive conversations about our assets and soon to be debt and have 100% the same understanding. I figured as much but again, if you don't put it in writing or some type of agreement those extensive conversations and understandings won't do much for either of you should things go south. Just saying..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schmuckingham Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Moral of the story, don't get married.... woops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokin5s Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 (Details here are for discussion purposes, not nec. that of the OP"s situation) It's not about her income of $50k, it's about their once joint income and lifestyle having been $140k. You don't got through years of marriage where joint decisions impact the earnings on both sides and then just walk away each taking their own. That's not how a contract works. Not sure I follow you the joint custody thing.....there are two parents, costs are a joint responsibility. It's a lame tactic for fathers to want to forgo custody thinking they can walk away from the financial responsibility. The flip side is also common where because they have to pay they try and fight for more time. When I spoke with a lawyer about the big D a while back, I was told, I would be paying child support even if we split things right down the middle as far as time. I understand that raising a child takes money, but if I'm raising the child half the time and she's raising the other, she's responsible for her time as am I and we can work together on school / sports costs... as far as the used to joint money at 140k, what about the guy, he's used to that salary as well.... and now he's not only taking her 50k loss, but he's taking more of a loss because he has to cover her "loss" that hardly seems fair or right in any way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokin5s Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 3 or 4 kids? I've been paying about $1800/mo total but I'm doing my best to negotiate. That's for (net) one child. First step is not getting divorced in Ohio if you can help it. 1,800???? good lord, either you make a shit ton more than me, or you're living with your parents or siblings because you can't afford to pay a mortgage anymore. I couldn't imaging being forced to pay 1,800 a month to an ex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 When I spoke with a lawyer about the big D a while back, I was told, I would be paying child support even if we split things right down the middle as far as time. I understand that raising a child takes money, but if I'm raising the child half the time and she's raising the other, she's responsible for her time as am I and we can work together on school / sports costs... It's not that simple. There are about 12 different factors that play into consideration when determining child support and alimony. It's not just as simple as who makes what and who gets what percentage of time with the kids. I would hope your attorney took the time to cover all that so you fully understand the details. If not, you need to ask. as far as the used to joint money at 140k, what about the guy, he's used to that salary as well.... and now he's not only taking her 50k loss, but he's taking more of a loss because he has to cover her "loss" that hardly seems fair or right in any way. Sure, they both are used to the $140k lifestyle, but again, there are many factors in play here not just who makes what added together and divided by two. Both parties didn't come into the marraige with equal stuff, tons of factors changed their lives while married and thus to expect each is going to exit with equal stuff is not a proper expectation. An attorney will confront you with that upfront or at least they should. Her earning potential on her own isn't what his is and the contract of marraige isn't going to just toss her out to fend for herself with just her income and call it a day. That's not how it works. Believe me, roles are reversed more often than you think too. Niether party will see their results as fair and both will toss blame. The reality is both are responsible in some way. Wives don't just haul off an cheat, they do it for a reason that was likely not seen, ignored or caused. It's rarely just entirely one sided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Maker Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 What do you think is short sighted? I think you meant from an emotional/commitiment standpoint. I see where you are coming from, the legal standpoint being different. I figured as much but again, if you don't put it in writing or some type of agreement those extensive conversations and understandings won't do much for either of you should things go south. Just saying..... Definitely on the to do list, with the biggest worry being more overall estate planning. Which is probably more important for us than a married couple, due to the legal differences we've already touched on here. What happens to my assets if something happens to me? I want to make sure they go to her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKilbourne Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) Marraige is a contract, that's a fact not sad. There's a purpose to impose the protection for each through a marraige contract. If you're a religious person, it's typical a contract between two people and their God. The state sees it as a contract between the two people too. You're upset about a friends situation but he made the commitment to those kids and to his wife and did so with a full understanding of the consequences. (or at least he's responsible for having insured he had a full understanding) He's 50% liable and can't walk away nor does he have the right to impose how he thinks she should spend the money. Perhaps it sucks in his situation but IMO if he's focused on all that, his eye is off the ball. Go through the motions and move on already. You nor him determine what she deserves. He made that 50% agreement on their wedding day and like it or not each party deserves to have that agreement held strong. If you or him feel she breached the contract that's fine, but accroding to the very same contract in Ohio, it doesn't entitle him to anything different. If he doesn't like that then that's why the court system is there. Go fight. In short, he never fully understood the details behind a marraige contract. It's not that the contract is bad or the courts aren't upholding what it said, he just had a very poor understanding of how it all works or what he got into. Most have no clue and again, I hate to say it but most don't take the time to understand. (see my previous paragraph about people not giving a shit) People just run off and get married and pop out babies all the time with nearly zero clue as to what they are really committing to and then go off thinking the are entitle to this, that and the other. Part of what my wife really hated about being a family lawyer is 99% of the people in contested divorces thought they were family and contract lawyers themselves when in fact they don't even understand the first thing about either. Those aren't his feelings or words, they are mine. He isn't complaining about caring for his kids and neither am I. I am trying to make the point that in no way does this woman deserve the amount that she receives based on what she did. All of your contract talk is funny. You make it seem like marriage isn't about love and respect, but business. That's my point. There should be a clause stating that if one of the two parties involved decides to ruin the relationship by cheating multiple times and then breaking the "contract", that they don't get to reap the benefits of your said "contract". Unfortunately, that isn't the way that this works. Bottom line is that you know the facts about what the laws are due to obvious reasons. I have opinions on it, that have zero effect on those facts. I don't claim to know all of the facts, but I am unfortunately aware of a few that I don't agree with. If someone is getting divorced make sure to get a good lawyer. Edited August 7, 2012 by DKilbourne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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