27 dead (20 children, 6 adults and shooter) in an elem school in CT

[V8 Beast]

when put into perspective it just sucks to come to the realization that it really isn't as big of a deal as it seems...

 

I have to disagree with you from an emotional standpoint. Emotionally its a very big deal.... When you are dealing with innocent kids it puts a different spin on it. I understand that from a numbers standpoint its a small drop in the pan, but we are not just talking numbers. I cant remember a time in my life when 20 innocent 5-10 year old children were killed by one man in cold blood.

[2highpsi]

If you disagree, try saying so without insults.

Fair enough.

 

I have to disagree with you from an emotional standpoint. Emotionally its a very big deal.... When you are dealing with innocent kids it puts a different spin on it. I understand that from a numbers standpoint its a small drop in the pan, but we are not just talking numbers. I cant remember a time in my life when 20 innocent 5-10 year old children were killed by one man in cold blood.

 

I concur

[V8 Beast]

Fair enough.

 

 

Its one of those threads that could go south quick. If people are as disgusted as much as I am, it would be an easy place to release that anger and cause a mess. Im frustrated to know that if my kids were in a similar situation they may not even be able to run. My son has been shooting for years, but that doesnt help him when hes sitting in a classroom.

 

I (along with a lot of people I bet) went through an escape plan at school with their family tonight. The whole situation sucks!

[2highpsi]

Its one of those threads that could go south quick. If people are as disgusted as much as I am, it would be an easy place to release that anger and cause a mess. Im frustrated to know that if my kids were in a similar situation they may not even be able to run. My son has been shooting for years, but that doesnt help him when hes sitting in a classroom.

 

I (along with a lot of people I bet) went through an escape plan at school with their family tonight. The whole situation sucks!

 

I agree. My original post wasn't very tactful. Being emotional about the subject makes it a little harder to articulate my thoughts.

[Scotty2Hotty]

The notion of securing schools to me is not a bad idea. Kids are there to learn, not to be free to roam. Lessons should have been leaned from previous events, but as it seems all to forgotten. Schools may need to be treated like Federal Buildings. After Oklahoma City, things changed. I think it's time for schools to become proactive and take responsibility for their students.

[V8 Beast]

I agree. My original post wasn't very tactful. Being emotional about the subject makes it a little harder to articulate my thoughts.

 

Thats why Im here :gabe:

 

J/k,... its all good

[Dr. Pomade]

Brian, my apologies for the inflammatory comments. I'm in agreement with your moderation of the thread, even if that's at the expense of censoring some of what I've said. (And I realize that that it doesn't really matter if I agree or not, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to let you know that I think you're doing the right thing and a good job.)

 

Back on topic: another issue that will likely arise in the near future is the notion of empowering the mental health community with the authority to enforce more restricted treatments. Gun control and school safety will, of course, be at the forefront of the discussions, but I envision mental health awareness and treatment become a "hot button" topic as well.

[V8 Beast]

Brian, my apologies for the inflammatory comments. I'm in agreement with your moderation of the thread, even if that's at the expense of censoring some of what I've said. (And I realize that that it doesn't really matter if I agree or not, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to let you know that I think you're doing the right thing and a good job.)

 

Back on topic: another issue that will likely arise in the near future is the notion of empowering the mental health community with the authority to enforce more restricted treatments. Gun control and school safety will, of course, be at the forefront of the discussions, but I envision mental health awareness and treatment become a "hot button" topic as well.

 

Thank you sir.

 

 

Question... With a diagnosis of depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, etc. medication is often prescribed to help the person initially (if not forever) deal with it. Different chemical make ups in the brain cause different people to react different ways. With successful suicide and rage being a side-effect of certain medications, do you personally feel professionals in the mental health field should have more control over their patients ability to own firearms?

[Dr. Pomade]

Thank you sir.

 

Question... With a diagnosis of depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, etc. medication is often prescribed to help the person initially (if not forever) deal with it. Different chemical make ups in the brain cause different people to react different ways. With successful suicide and rage being a side-effect of certain medications, do you personally feel professionals in the mental health field should have more control over their patients ability to own firearms?

 

The short answer is yes, though I'm quick to acknowledge (a) this is a fairly touchy subject, and there's a ton of stuff to consider, the vast majority of which I won't come close to addressing in this post and (b) I have my own biases - professional and personal - that lead me to immediately lean toward mental health professionals being more, rather than less, empowered.

 

A related topic, and something that may not be known to some here, is that there is existing law that helps to limit those with psychiatric illness having access to firearms. Specifically, in Ohio, anyone that has been involuntarily committed to a psychiatric facility is not allowed to possess a firearm. (Same thing applies to those that have been convicted of a felony offense.)

 

Firearms possession amongst the mentally ill is something that I've researched in the past. In fact, I co-authored an article on the subject in 2001. The title of the article was, appropriately enough, Firearms risk management in psychiatric care. (For the interested reader, the article can be found in the journal Psychiatric Services, Volume 52, pages 1057-1061.) In brief, I would offer that substantially more resources, energy, time, and attention should be paid to the issue of firearms possession amongst those with mental illness. Further, I would submit that, perhaps more importantly, more resources should be devoted to the prediction of violence and risk management strategies in the community.

 

At present, mental health professionals are relatively limited in their ability to quell "dangerousness" and force an unwilling patient to submit to treatment. Of course, there are good, sound reasons for this. After all, none of us want our civil liberties squashed. However, there likely is, in my opinion, some "gray area" here, in which mental health professionals can be more empowered to neutralize perceived risk of harm to others and enforce treatment without compromising too much, or all, pertinent civil liberties. Currently, mental health professionals are able to detain someone involuntarily only when a fairly circumscribed set of criteria are met (e.g., the individual poses an imminent risk of harm) and they are able to force treatment only when it is either medically necessary to neutralize an imminent risk or when it is court-ordered. The problem is when you have an individual who isn't "imminently" dangerous or court-ordered to receive treatment - and therefore beyond legal recourse - yet they present with a substantial amount of risk factors that serve to place them at increased, and arguably an unacceptable, level of risk to the community.

[V8 Beast]

The short answer is yes, though I'm quick to acknowledge (a) this is a fairly touchy subject, and there's a ton of stuff to consider, the vast majority of which I won't come close to addressing in this post and (b) I have my own biases - professional and personal - that lead me to immediately lean toward mental health professionals being more, rather than less, empowered.

 

A related topic, and something that may not be known to some here, is that there is existing law that helps to limit those with psychiatric illness having access to firearms. Specifically, in Ohio, anyone that has been involuntarily committed to a psychiatric facility is not allowed to possess a firearm. (Same thing applies to those that have been convicted of a felony offense.)

 

Firearms possession amongst the mentally ill is something that I've researched in the past. In fact, I co-authored an article on the subject in 2001. The title of the article was, appropriately enough, Firearms risk management in psychiatric care. (For the interested reader, the article can be found in the journal Psychiatric Services, Volume 52, pages 1057-1061.) In brief, I would offer that substantially more resources, energy, time, and attention should be paid to the issue of firearms possession amongst those with mental illness. Further, I would submit that, perhaps more importantly, more resources should be devoted to the prediction of violence and risk management strategies in the community.

 

At present, mental health professionals are relatively limited in their ability to quell "dangerousness" and force an unwilling patient to submit to treatment. Of course, there are good, sound reasons for this. After all, none of us want our civil liberties squashed. However, there likely is, in my opinion, some "gray area" here, in which mental health professionals can be more empowered to neutralize perceived risk of harm to others and enforce treatment without compromising too much, or all, pertinent civil liberties. Currently, mental health professionals are able to detain someone involuntarily only when a fairly circumscribed set of criteria are met (e.g., the individual poses an imminent risk of harm) and they are able to force treatment only when it is either medically necessary to neutralize an imminent risk or when it is court-ordered. The problem is when you have an individual who isn't "imminently" dangerous or court-ordered to receive treatment - and therefore beyond legal recourse - yet they present with a substantial amount of risk factors that serve to place them at increased, and arguably an unacceptable, level of risk to the community.

 

I didnt know about not being able to buy a gun if you are involuntarily detained for treatment. Very good info in there, thank you.

 

I agree that you dont want a Doctor being able to say, "Hey, crazy ass, you are not going home today". At the same time if this happened more it may give the professionals (that know how to work with at risk people) a chance to get them help before they hurt themselves or others. Seeing as though they tend to have a much deeper look into a persons mind, it may be the only warning we get before stuff like this happens

 

I'm not one to live my life in fear, but I find myself looking over my shoulder a little bit more every time crazy things like this happen. Are we getting worse as a society, or is it just that the internet and TV are putting it all in our face now? In looking through past events its looks like its happened before, just not in America...

[copperhead]

Back on topic: another issue that will likely arise in the near future is the notion of empowering the mental health community with the authority to enforce more restricted treatments. Gun control and school safety will, of course, be at the forefront of the discussions, but I envision mental health awareness and treatment become a "hot button" topic as well.

 

This needs to happen regardless.

 

I would like to point out that the the shooter was a 20 year old kid, therefore ineligible to purchase handguns. It's also claimed he had an AR in his car, which anymore I have trouble believing but whatever. CT's gun laws are only superseded in strength by NY and CA - they still have an assault weapons ban, so he would have had to spend some coin to get a preban model, or bring it in from out of state which I really doubt. So what I'm saying is the laws in place to keep him from getting guns did not work. Also, had he been legally declared mentally unstable he would fail any background check.

[iwishiwascool]

I think there is going to be an intersection of big data and behavior prediction modeling. With a good percentage of our interactions being cataloged voluntarily, why wouldn't that data be surveyed for indicators of crazy.

[Zx2guy19]

I've been following this story pretty much all day, and it literally makes me sick. I am not a parent, but I can only imagine that the worst feeling in life is burying your own child.

 

10 days before Christmas. I hope this fucker rots in the most eternal pits of Hell.

[HotCarl]

The notion of securing schools to me is not a bad idea. Kids are there to learn, not to be free to roam. Lessons should have been leaned from previous events, but as it seems all to forgotten. Schools may need to be treated like Federal Buildings. After Oklahoma City, things changed. I think it's time for schools to become proactive and take responsibility for their students.

 

Comparing Indian Run Elementary to elementary schools of today is like comparing a petting zoo to a minimum security prison. When I was that age there were really no regulations on who could come and go, or 'security' per say. These days when I go to pick up my niece and nephew from school I have to be buzzed in through a locked door, show i.d. and still have my sister give them written or verbal permission to take the kids. All makes sense and all of which i completely agree with. Hell if anything I think they could be MORE strict on some of these things.

[Dharris89]

My daughter's school (elementary in Worthington) is very laid back and there is minimal (if any) security protocols. All the parents actually received an automated call indicating the school board would meet on Monday to discuss security. I'm not sure which part of that scares me more. I can only hope this is not a "new" discussion topic. I'm fine with locked doors, security guards and buzzer systems. I moved to Worthington for the schools. That being said I want my kids to get a good education to prepare them for life. More importantly I want them to be safe while they are in the school's care.

[Got-Boost?]

Very sorry for those affected and can't even imagine what those parents/families are going through with young kids of my own. Prayers sent to all.

[Das Borgen]

I have to disagree with you from an emotional standpoint. Emotionally its a very big deal.... When you are dealing with innocent kids it puts a different spin on it. I understand that from a numbers standpoint its a small drop in the pan, but we are not just talking numbers. I cant remember a time in my life when 20 innocent 5-10 year old children were killed by one man in cold blood.

 

that's a very true point that the kid factor makes this worse.

 

 

27 deaths

27 christmases down the drain

 

edit: Stalin once said "one death is a tragedy, a million ones is a statistic"....fuck it's so true

[GTTURBO88]

As a parent my heart and prayers go out to these parents. No one should see their child die.

[944s2]

This needs to happen regardless.

 

I would like to point out that the the shooter was a 20 year old kid, therefore ineligible to purchase handguns. It's also claimed he had an AR in his car, which anymore I have trouble believing but whatever. CT's gun laws are only superseded in strength by NY and CA - they still have an assault weapons ban, so he would have had to spend some coin to get a preban model, or bring it in from out of state which I really doubt. So what I'm saying is the laws in place to keep him from getting guns did not work. Also, had he been legally declared mentally unstable he would fail any background check.

 

I saw the night video from the helicopter of them taking a (what looked to be an assault rifle of some kind) out of the trunk of his car. FYI

[Das Borgen]

some random police chief in MA posted this

 

Chief’s babble…..on the school shooting.

 

I have been thinking about kindergarten students all day. Five and six year-old kids….with no cares and with eyes on Santa coming soon. I see kindergarteners every day at our elementary school; you can always spot them, because of their book bags. They are small, innocent and love the world…and they give the BEST high fives, ever. They high five with love and eagerness….unaware of this nasty world we live in and the fact that monsters really do exist, in the form of killers, like the one who showed up at a school in Connecticut today.

 

I have read many of the opinions posted on our page here and want to offer my own. When disasters like this happen, we as a society tend to go way off, one direction or another. Moving to either extreme is not the answer, in my very humble opinion. We should not ban guns. We should not arm teachers.

 

I am a gun enthusiast. I am an NRA member. I am not a right wing extremist. I have been around guns since birth and have always had one in the house. For those who want to make guns illegal, I have a comparison….cocaine and heroin are illegal. Making something illegal just means that those with a moral compass will not possess or use it….criminals still will. I do not know about the rest of you, but when I am backed into a corner, and have to protect my family from harm or death, I do not want to take a baseball bat to a gunfight.

 

On the other hand….my gun enthusiast friends need to simmer a little. The talk of “criminal" or "gun free zones” is also a little dramatic. The world is not collapsing. There are not bands of roving killers who prey on people because they enter s store or buildings where guns are not permitted. Teachers should not be armed in a school. I do not want teachers having the responsibility of being in a shoot/don’t shoot scenario or worrying about proper backdrop. We constantly work those scenarios and they are unnerving at best. Mrs. Crabtree should not have to worry about breaking out her Glock while also trying to give directions to 25 screaming 1st graders. Additionally, a small fraction of the gun people who “talk the talk” about what they would do in a life or death situation would most certainly not “walk the walk”. It’s very easy to say or type “If I was there with my concealed carry, I would have killed him”….it’s not so easy to put that play in motion. Many would shoot themselves in the leg, and then urinate. Again…that’s a fraction of the gun people, so don’t come unglued.

 

So….we had another mass killing at a school. Innocent children….angels…. gone. I have said it for years, to anyone who will listen. It is time to direct tax money to every school in this nation. It is time to make our schools secure. The time for talk is done….it was done YEARS ago. There should be NO one in the building during the school day except for staff, students and police. Dedicate a secure room/vestibule near the entrance for conferences or meetings with parents. Set a perimeter of cameras and locked doors, so these kids can be safe….the teachers can be safe….and the building can function as a school and not a murder scene.

 

Fed and State elected people, nationwide, listen up…..You have taxed beyond belief. You have attempted education reform numerous times and failed. You are failing children and teachers in a way now that is reprehensible….and they are dying. Stop lining the pockets of your lobbyists and start securing these schools. If you can fund the study of methane gas released by cattle, you can damn sure make these schools safer. And yes, it is on you. You have taxed at a federal and state level so much; you have caused the locals giant issues with passing ANY taxes.

 

These children leave the safety of home every day….it is our job to return them home, safely. Let’s start making schools a “safe zone”….and not just show up for photo ops when kids die. Lead, or get out of the way.

 

Thoughts and prayers to all involved…..I just cannot grasp your agony……Chief Oliver

 

I agree with everything said there

[10phone2]

agreed. The funny thing is we are spending more and more on education, but we fall lower and lower against other countries education yearly.

[verse]

Yeah, you can lock all the doors and make a safe room at the front of school for pickups and whatnot, but what if they just decide to come by when school is letting out or early in the morning when the buses are dropping off kids.

 

You can never make it 100% safe, but you can protect them. Someone should be armed.

[Mallard]

They said on the news this morning that the office did not buzz him in, he broke the glass to get inside. But this has been

conflicting. The doors also are not locked until 9:30, and the first 911 call came in at 9:30, so he may have been in the building beforehand.

 

There's also a story floating around Facebook that a first grade teacher hid her students in cabinets and told the gunman they were in the gym. He killed her and moved to another room.

 

p.s. the .223 is now reported as being in the school with him, and there were 3 hunting rifes in his car.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Mallard

[RedRocket1647545505]

A family member also mentioned that he had some form of autism. Color me surprised. The true problem is the lack of mental health resources in this country. Granted, you can't catch them all, but you can't ignore them all either. There is some serious underfunding for mental health. Unfortunately, there is a serious underfunding for everything.

[Mallard]

Autism is not associated with violent behavior, so if you're suggesting that autistic people need to be committed, or undergo serious psychiatric therepy, your wrong.