greg1647545532 Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 Then wtf did you mean by this? Having a lot of guns is different than not allowing people with mental illnesses to easily obtain them. We wouldn't argue semantics if you didn't beat around the bush with every god damn argument you make I mean that people say "We don't have a gun problem, we have a mental health problem," as though every other country on Earth either doesn't have mental illness or they're infinitely better at treating it. I don't buy that. Every country has mentally ill people who fall through the cracks, what makes America unique (IMO) is that when they fall through the cracks here, they can get an AR-15 very easily. Is that a fair statement? Or do you think we're uniquely bad at addressing mental health? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 Let me expand on that a bit. I think we can all agree that the 2nd Amendment and America's culture towards personal firearm ownership is unique. People wanting to do bad things, for whatever reason you want to call it (evil, mental illness, notoriety, etc) is not unique to America. Different countries have gone about addressing those people and the bad things they want to do in different ways, but since America has a unique situation here with the 2nd Amendment, we're going to require a unique solution. You can, as Tim just did, accept that some number of dead kids is just the price we're going to have to pay for our unique freedom in regards to firearms ownership. If you believe, as many of you seem to, that we need to address the "real" issues without touching anyone's 2nd amendment rights, then I think you need to admit that your proposed solution is going to be difficult, unprecedented among the global community, and massive in scope. It's going to take big ideas, and uniquely American big ideas, because nobody else has gone about protecting kids this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BStowers023 Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 I get what you're saying, Greg. We are a unique country. We are not perfect, no country is. We have a wide demographic here unlike pretty much any other country. We have a different foundation than any other country. We are supposed to be a country all about freedom and liberty, but the more we try to be like other countries, the further we deviate from that. There is no "easy" solution here, that I agree with you on. I also agree we need to handle this uniquely and taking law abiding citizens guns who pose no threat is not the answer. People bring up Australia. We are not Australia. Many European countries have been having terrorist issues over the years with bombs, using vehicles as weapons and knife/machete attacks but nobody is blaming the objects over there. There are many reasons it's important for us to keep our rights that go beyond just "as long as I can keep my gunzzz." If you understand our foundation and what made us great, what makes people from other countries want to come here, you'll understand. I'm glad at least you can admit there is no simple fix like most liberals who think simply banning or taking our guns is the easy answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xlr8tn Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 I mean that people say "We don't have a gun problem, we have a mental health problem," as though every other country on Earth either doesn't have mental illness or they're infinitely better at treating it. I don't buy that. Every country has mentally ill people who fall through the cracks, what makes America unique (IMO) is that when they fall through the cracks here, they can get an AR-15 very easily. Is that a fair statement? Or do you think we're uniquely bad at addressing mental health? I don't buy into the mental health excuse either. Sure...they were whackos but mental health isn't the cure all for ending gun violence. I do think we're unique just in our freedoms and we always have been. This country was founded based on those freedoms. Many times more people have died procuring and defending those freedoms so they're a pretty big deal to a lot of people. Not only can an ar-15 be bought easily by a law abiding citizen but so can 9 mm pistols and shotguns which were used in columbine. So to throw the ar-15 ban blanket over the problem isn't the cure all either. To me that's equally as silly as blaming it all on mental health. Right now it's way to easy to shoot up a school. Maybe one of the costs of freedom is to spend more money making schools an impossible target. I don't feel arming teachers is the answer. To me access and protection are the answers. Check points to get into a school and a strong police presence at every school would be a good start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODoyle Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 Exactly. There are enough Grunt Style tee shirts in public already. No need to place a handful more in schools. Spit coffee on my desk at work. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 I get what you're saying, Greg. We are a unique country. We are not perfect, no country is. We have a wide demographic here unlike pretty much any other country. We have a different foundation than any other country. We are supposed to be a country all about freedom and liberty, but the more we try to be like other countries, the further we deviate from that. There is no "easy" solution here, that I agree with you on. I also agree we need to handle this uniquely and taking law abiding citizens guns who pose no threat is not the answer. People bring up Australia. We are not Australia. Many European countries have been having terrorist issues over the years with bombs, using vehicles as weapons and knife/machete attacks but nobody is blaming the objects over there. There are many reasons it's important for us to keep our rights that go beyond just "as long as I can keep my gunzzz." If you understand our foundation and what made us great, what makes people from other countries want to come here, you'll understand. I'm glad at least you can admit there is no simple fix like most liberals who think simply banning or taking our guns is the easy answer. I'm glad that we're not talking past each other for once, but we still haven't gotten anywhere. If the conservative half of the country thinks that there's something we can do about spree/school shooters, something that solves some sort of "real problem," and yet preserves all existing rights under the 2nd amendment, I just explained that I think such a solution would be difficult, unprecedented, and massive in scope. In other words, if there's no simple fix, there must be a complicated one. What's the complicated fix proposed by the Republican party, the ones in charge of everything? All I've seen so far are puissant suggestions like raising the age to 21 and banning bump stocks. Where are all of the big ideas that will get me on board the conservative brain train? eta: Or will all conservatives just stand up and admit, like Tim just did, that the tree of liberty sometimes needs to be watered with the blood of schoolchildren, because in the absence of big ideas, that's what's going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 eta: Or will all conservatives just stand up and admit, like Tim just did, that the tree of liberty sometimes needs to be watered with the blood of schoolchildren, because in the absence of big ideas, that's what's going to happen. Freedom isn't and never has been any different. And the grand scheme even over the past 10 years not that many people overall have been killed in these types of shootings. The absence of Big Ideas has been void from both sides. All that's being discussed is the same old partisan politics. On one side you have a group that enjoys our freedoms and on the other a group that wants more regulated and managed freedoms Sent from my Galaxy Note 8 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeesammy Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 Nobody went around saying, "Hur hur, politicians are blaming fertilizer for this bombing, don't they know that inanimate piles of plant food never hurt anybody by themselves? They should focus on the real problem, people." This semantic bullshit about guns is tiring. No, but this was during the assault weapons ban years, which literally proves everyone's point that banning assault weapons will do nothing to prevent mass killings. If someone wants to kill they will find a way. No cool down period, ban, or whatever will fix this. I personally would rather trying to stop a guy with a gun than have to guess which van the explosives are in. And before you put an extremist CNN type twist on what I said, what I AM NOT saying is that I think we should hand out guns and change nothing. All I am saying is that a gun is easier to stop than a fucking bomb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRed05 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) I'll tell you one thing you probably wouldn't hear if this forum was based out of any other country, is the amount of times the word "freedom" is dropped. Edited February 26, 2018 by kickass typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 Us Americans really like to pretend like all of our freedoms are unique. But what else would you expect from a country forged under the banner of "liberty" that then proceeded to enslave human beings for another 100 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRed05 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 Howard Stern made in interesting point this morning, and I think he's onto something. He said that there should be "choke points" in schools and there should be a cop/guard at those choke points. This Cruz fuckhead had no business being at the school to begin with, so how did he get inside? Looking at Google Maps, I see that there are 4 entrances, no gates, no fence. So getting on the property is easy. If it was anything like when I went to Olentangy, there would be multiple doors that you could enter/exit the building without anyone monitoring it. To Howard's point. Perhaps there should be a fence, and during school hours there should only be one entrance/exit onto the property and one set of doors into the building with a guard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zx2guy19 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 I think one issue with all of this talk is this: This stuff doesn't just happen at schools. Vegas, churches, malls, etc. Mass shootings in general are a huge issue in the US, not just at schools. What is the root cause of all this? Mental health. None of these cats shooting places up are right in the head. Ban guns? They drive through crowded areas in a Home Depot van (yes I know that was more religious based). Here is my point: I personally am on depression medication. I go on it for 3-4 months a year during the winter. I have NEVER had an issue with my background check and I own multiple guns. I get approved the same day, no issues, etc. Why? I've always questioned that. Why is it that someone who is on depression medication and has a history of mental health stemming back to 2012, is able to get a gun so easily? PS: for the record, I take the lowest dosage of anxiety/depression medication known to man, usually from Dec-March because of the lack of sun. I don't have actual depression, just seasonal. But my point remains- it's never once come up on a background check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 To Howard's point. Perhaps there should be a fence, and during school hours there should only be one entrance/exit onto the property and one set of doors into the building with a guard. LOL that it's exactly like that at all of our offices. To get in or out at any time other than fire drills or emergencies, there's only a single point of entry / exit and it's guarded by multiple individuals and the cameras at all locations are monitored remotely-live in real time. One time we had a delivery guy go a bit pissy due to an order being messed up and it being refused. He was deer in headlights frozen when 3-4 people confronted him and the monitor behind the guard changed over to a live view of the remote security team also chiming in to address the situation and make sure the local people had it under control. He was overwhelmed by the attention that came his way so quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRed05 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 This stuff doesn't just happen at schools. Vegas, churches, malls, etc. Mass shootings in general are a huge issue in the US, not just at schools. We had active shooter "training" at work a few weeks ago. One of the things the officers mentioned was that the workplace is actually where most shootings happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zx2guy19 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 We had active shooter "training" at work a few weeks ago. One of the things the officers mentioned was that the workplace is actually where most shootings happen. Yeah I just went through the same thing...it was insane, we did blank round scenario training (they fired a gun with blanks in it). All that said, while yeah it happens mainly in schools in the workplace, we can't protect everywhere. Okay, so we fix schools (great)...now these sick fucks will start shooting up more concerts, nursing homes, etc. The root cause is mental health. All of the fixes we're all talking about are just band-aids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagner Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 I would say ask the educators who actually deal with the students, but people won't like their truthful response on how to fix the problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 I would say ask the educators who actually deal with the students, but people won't like their truthful response on how to fix the problem I'll like them. What are they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagner Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 I'll like them. What are they? A lot of my family on my mom's side all are in the education field. Teachers, Principals, Coaches, Special Education, ect. Most have advanced degrees, my mom has her Doctorate in education so they all know the field well. I myself even looked into education but I can't stand dealing with the parents after years of coaching football and wrestling. Here is my mom's response to all of this. She has extensive experience in the classroom as a teacher for 25 years, a Principal, and Special Education director. She ran a rural school that would get all the turds from the Canton city schools that got kicked out. Our students and families need support! The best school districts I have worked for partnered with county mental health and addiction recovery agencies. We had mental health counselors available to all students and their families year round. Teachers and students had training on bullying and how to be resilient. We had short teacher-led or student-led conversations on the focus of the month..ie kindness or compassion... during homeroom..at lunches. We also had support from our police department and the juvenile court. Our teachers would meet in teams at each grade level during team time to look at every student....with multiple levels of data..attendance...grades.. behavior...test scores..permanent record..we had assessed how each student learned best...visual, tactile, hearing or auditory learners. Teachers would discuss how they would help the students that were struggling as well as to stretch the learning of all students. We had after-school programs on campus and off campus to support students and families. We offered classes from local universities we partnered with... for our parents to take at our school to further their education. We saw a true change in the behavior and improved student achievement....from a failing school to students passing "the tests" and higher scores of academic achievement. I could go on with what we did to improve special education...reading and math scores...career exploration..."academic pep rallies" ..getting kids to be involved in their education.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagner Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 Another thing to think about is the fact that guns in schools are such a small problem, student on student violence is MUCH bigger. That doesn't grab headlines, win votes, or fit a narrative so you don't hear about it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 Another thing to think about is the fact that guns in schools are such a small problem, student on student violence is MUCH bigger. That doesn't grab headlines, win votes, or fit a narrative so you don't hear about it... Well they're not mutually exclusive problems, but yes, school shootings get the press. Tell your mom thanks for the response. I would absolutely get behind increasing funding for local government services like public health, police/courts, after school programs and special needs intervention. In fact, I've voted for every tax increase that's ever come up on a local ballot, except for the one last year for the zoo. Fuck the zoo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagner Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 Well they're not mutually exclusive problems, but yes, school shootings get the press. Tell your mom thanks for the response. I would absolutely get behind increasing funding for local government services like public health, police/courts, after school programs and special needs intervention. In fact, I've voted for every tax increase that's ever come up on a local ballot, except for the one last year for the zoo. Fuck the zoo. My brother is a teacher here in Central Ohio and he goes above and beyond to help his students in and out of the classroom. He is always fighting issues at home to help these kids, it's sad really. People don't understand what educators have to deal with to do their jobs. It's like they're a one armed hooker in a hand job contest... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o0n8 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 I don't believe any of them share a history like ours where we fought for their country like we did. I also don't believe they included any type of 2A for their people. In all honesty, the 2A is important to me and I won't trade it for the lives lost here or in the next shooting. Way too many millions before them also died for all the things that our constitution stands for to just give it away or let people too lazy to fix the real problem chip away at my rights. Anyone calling for a repeal of the 2A or for severe infringement should move to the UK or elsewhere. Tim is not the only one with this thought. This is why nothing will get done. All we really can do is wait for the next one. by the by, it can be changed, it is an amendment after all. i.e. booze and slavery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Brian Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 I keep sending thoughts and prayers on facebook but kids keep shooting shit wtf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRed05 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 I keep sending thoughts and prayers on facebook but kids keep shooting shit wtf Thanks Call of Duty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitgeist57 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 Howard Stern made in interesting point this morning, and I think he's onto something. He said that there should be "choke points" in schools and there should be a cop/guard at those choke points. This Cruz fuckhead had no business being at the school to begin with, so how did he get inside? Looking at Google Maps, I see that there are 4 entrances, no gates, no fence. So getting on the property is easy. If it was anything like when I went to Olentangy, there would be multiple doors that you could enter/exit the building without anyone monitoring it. To Howard's point. Perhaps there should be a fence, and during school hours there should only be one entrance/exit onto the property and one set of doors into the building with a guard. My wife and I are huge Howard fans. If you want a "choke point", the first stop is putting schools on lockdown so you can only go inside through 1-2 doors during school hours. Put a call button with a buzzer lock, and make sure everyone - from parents to guardians to kids - states why they need to get in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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