Otis Nice Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 "Are the Taliban now using captured U.S. Blackhawks to hang enemies and parade their corpses around town?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagner Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 "Are the Taliban now using captured U.S. Blackhawks to hang enemies and parade their corpses around town?" Well, look at it this way, those birds won't stay in the air for a long time. I don't know if you can YouTube how to fix one and those things aren't maintenance-free like the Toyota trucks they're used to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Nice Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 Well, look at it this way, those birds won't stay in the air for a long time. I don't know if you can YouTube how to fix one and those things aren't maintenance-free like the Toyota trucks they're used to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oh8sti Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 This has to be one of the biggest military failures of any modern day president. Its shocking how poorly this was executed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitgeist57 Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 This has to be one of the biggest military failures of any modern day president. Its shocking how poorly this was executed. I was shocked at some of the FB graphics depicting how much equipment we've left in Afghanistan. $80B+ holy shit. I'd target everything left behind with drone strikes. If you don't want to be collateral damage, stay away from that former U.S Humvee or Blackhawk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallard Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 This has to be one of the biggest military failures of any modern day president. Its shocking how poorly this was executed.I honestly want to see a full investigation before I make that determination. I want to know exactly what was and wasn't done properly and why. I want to know what Americans were left there and why. We need to remember that as part of the Doha Agreement the Trump administration negotiated with the Taliban, US troops had already been down down significantly in the country. There were only 2500 US troops in Afghanistan when Biden took office. On Aug 1 there were around 650 left. Between the 12th and 16th of August Biden deployed an additional 7000 troops back to Afghanistan. Trump had publicly set a withdrawal date of May this year, Biden pushed it to September 11, then August 31. One of the reasons there was trouble with getting our allies out was a crippled visa system that was dismantled under Trump. They could not process the volume of requests coming in, even before the mess of the last 2 weeks. Biden did remove those hurdles in order to quickly get people out of there. Over 100,000 (I think the number is over 117k) people have been airlifted out of Afghanistan, which makes it one of the largest operations (if not the largest) in history. With Trump's withdrawl date in May, the crippled visa system, and the drawdown of troops, I just don't believe anyone when they say that Trump had some grand plan to get everyone out and Biden dropped the ball on something he had set in motion. All of our allies would have been left in Afghanistan, just like Syria. There were casualties, but to use your words, Biden put warheads on foreheads and there's no telling how many civilians would have been killed if that vehicle had made it to the airport. It is bad that the Taliban now has a lot of our equipment, but it seems like that outcome had already been predicted, just not so fast. Luckily some things were decommissioned at the Kabul airport before we left. We gave the Afganistan army a bunch of equipment to fight the war, we trained them for 20 years, and they surrendered the country in 2 weeks. Yes, an airstrike to destroy helicopters and such would be nice, but it's clear from Trump's peace agreement with the Taliban that we don't consider ourselves at war with them. We agreed to leave to country, provided the Taliban didn't harbor al-Qaeda, and that agreement was made between the US (Trunp administration) and the Taliban, without the Afgan government that we put in place. I want to see congressional investigations worse than any Benghazi commission so all the facts can be out in the open. However, with all of the stuff I listed above, I'm having a hard time putting this all on Biden. Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 I was shocked at some of the FB graphics depicting how much equipment we've left in Afghanistan. $80B+ holy shit. I'd target everything left behind with drone strikes. If you don't want to be collateral damage, stay away from that former U.S Humvee or Blackhawk. To put this in perspective, At the Fall of Saigon $30 Billion (in 2021 money) in equipment was abandoned in that one day, with estimated 1 trillion abandoned overall (converted to 2021 money). for a war that was fought shy of a decade. WWII surplus left behind was well into the trillions. The amount of Surplus left over after WWII was so large that it literally created the market for the Army/Navy surplus store. Also the cost of military equipment and support has gone up. A P-51 cost the Us government $50,000 in 1944, which is about $762,935 adjusted to 2021. It could be operated out of any level grass field, fixed with a ground crew of two and hand tools in the field, and only required a fuel truck and approx $60,000 (2021) in spare and service parts plus ammo to keep flying. they cost about $300 per hour to operate. A Huey in 1968 cost the government $4,700,000 which is $34,726,500 adjusted. It requires a 3 man service crew with advanced tools, a fuel truck, and could operate out of any field with a fuel truck and a generator. Operating cost is about $835per hour A UH-60L Black Hawk costs the army $21,000,000 and an A29 cost $23,000,000. Both require flightline operations which means they need a fixed base to operate out of, you can't drive a fuel truck out to a grass field and operate out of there long term like a P51 or a Huey. The Blackhawk operational cost is roughly $2500 per hour and the A29 is over $1000 per hour. Overall, the US left 72 aircraft behind in evacuating Afghanistan, less than the several hundred abandoned in WWII or Vietnam. Its not great, but it's not the worst. No high value fighter aircraft were abandoned and most of the assets were rendered inoperable. Most of the assets were available to civilians anyway, so it's not like any really cutting edge tech was lost. When you abandon the aircraft, you abandon the support operations that go with it. The P-51, loses what amounts to a modern day craftsman mechanic's tool set. The UH-60 abandons a several hundred thousand dollar support operation in equipment, that drives up the losses as well. It's not a great look to let that much tech fall into the hands of an enemy combatant, but it's not the hand wringing nightmare that a lot of conservatives make it out to be. Most of the aviation operations for the afgan air force were heavily reliant on us contractors and crews, yeah we trained them to fly the birds but not many learned how to fix them or have access to parts. Maybe they can keep what operational ones they have going off salvage but for how long? enough to be a threat in the region? not likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 I was shocked at some of the FB graphics depicting how much equipment we've left in Afghanistan. $80B+ holy shit. I'd target everything left behind with drone strikes. If you don't want to be collateral damage, stay away from that former U.S Humvee or Blackhawk. It's not clear how much was abandoned and how much was just simply left with the ANA. It would not have been a good look for us to say to the Afghan Nat Army, "Sorry we're going to take our equipment with us because, let's face it, you're probably gonna surrender as soon as we leave and we don't want the Taliban to have it." I'd guess the vast majority of that $80B was equipment that we've spent over a decade training the ANA how to use, only for them to just shrug and walk away from it. eta: To expand on that, Trump negotiated a deal with the Taliban to end combat operations in Afghanistan. If Biden ordered drone strikes against ANA equipment depots before they fell into the hands of the Taliban, that's kind of a fucked up thing to do to the ANA. If he ordered drone strikes against those same equipment depots after the Taliban seized them, well, then we're violating the deal that Trump made by continuing to conduct combat operations in Afghanistan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallard Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 "Are the Taliban now using captured U.S. Blackhawks to hang enemies and parade their corpses around town?"https://www.vice.com/en/article/88n3bv/no-the-taliban-did-not-just-hang-an-interpreter-from-a-us-helicopter It seems the answer might be "no." Also, this shows and talks about how almost everything at the Kabul airport was decommissioned: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/42204/taliban-show-off-captured-aircraft-and-other-spoils-after-taking-over-kabuls-airport Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Nice Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 It seems the answer might be "no." Well that's good then. So homie was just going for a thrill ride? I mean, I suppose they don't have Cedar Point over there so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oh8sti Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 To put this in perspective, At the Fall of Saigon $30 Billion (in 2021 money) in equipment was abandoned in that one day, with estimated 1 trillion abandoned overall (converted to 2021 money). for a war that was fought shy of a decade. WWII surplus left behind was well into the trillions. The amount of Surplus left over after WWII was so large that it literally created the market for the Army/Navy surplus store. Also the cost of military equipment and support has gone up. A P-51 cost the Us government $50,000 in 1944, which is about $762,935 adjusted to 2021. It could be operated out of any level grass field, fixed with a ground crew of two and hand tools in the field, and only required a fuel truck and approx $60,000 (2021) in spare and service parts plus ammo to keep flying. they cost about $300 per hour to operate. A Huey in 1968 cost the government $4,700,000 which is $34,726,500 adjusted. It requires a 3 man service crew with advanced tools, a fuel truck, and could operate out of any field with a fuel truck and a generator. Operating cost is about $835per hour A UH-60L Black Hawk costs the army $21,000,000 and an A29 cost $23,000,000. Both require flightline operations which means they need a fixed base to operate out of, you can't drive a fuel truck out to a grass field and operate out of there long term like a P51 or a Huey. The Blackhawk operational cost is roughly $2500 per hour and the A29 is over $1000 per hour. Overall, the US left 72 aircraft behind in evacuating Afghanistan, less than the several hundred abandoned in WWII or Vietnam. Its not great, but it's not the worst. No high value fighter aircraft were abandoned and most of the assets were rendered inoperable. Most of the assets were available to civilians anyway, so it's not like any really cutting edge tech was lost. When you abandon the aircraft, you abandon the support operations that go with it. The P-51, loses what amounts to a modern day craftsman mechanic's tool set. The UH-60 abandons a several hundred thousand dollar support operation in equipment, that drives up the losses as well. It's not a great look to let that much tech fall into the hands of an enemy combatant, but it's not the hand wringing nightmare that a lot of conservatives make it out to be. Most of the aviation operations for the afgan air force were heavily reliant on us contractors and crews, yeah we trained them to fly the birds but not many learned how to fix them or have access to parts. Maybe they can keep what operational ones they have going off salvage but for how long? enough to be a threat in the region? not likely. They don’t need to operate them…..they will just sell them to a country that can…. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oh8sti Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 https://www.vice.com/en/article/88n3bv/no-the-taliban-did-not-just-hang-an-interpreter-from-a-us-helicopter It seems the answer might be "no." Also, this shows and talks about how almost everything at the Kabul airport was decommissioned: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/42204/taliban-show-off-captured-aircraft-and-other-spoils-after-taking-over-kabuls-airport Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk Sounds like that’s the narrative you need to be right and the narrative of it being an execution is what republicans need to be right. Honestly - neither know what’s true. The vice article is as much speculation as what Cruz is claiming. The fact that they are operating US military gear in any way is alarming. Leaving Afghanistan isn’t the issue, it’s the way it was left. That is 100% Biden admins responsibility. To pass the buck onto someone else is weak and the exact opposite thing Biden preached will getting elected. He’s only blamed other people for his admins failures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallard Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 To pass the buck onto someone else is weak and the exact opposite thing Biden preached will getting elected. He’s only blamed other people for his admins failures. Actually, he's done the exact opposite. He's said multiple times that the buck stops with him, that it was his decision and he takes full responsibility. Trump never took the blame for anything. If the problem is the way in which we left, what would you have done differently? Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oh8sti Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 Greg - You’re telling me the most sophisticated army in the world didn’t suspect that ANA would fall to the Taliban until the last second? They knew this was a sinking ship months ago. They had every opportunity in the world to take out all of the equipment that could be and will be used against the United States in the future. It’s not a question of whether we go back to fight the Taliban but rather when we go back to fight the Taliban. Now they have a shit load of equipment that puts them in a better position to take more American lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oh8sti Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 Greg - You’re telling me the most sophisticated army in the world didn’t suspect that ANA would fall to the Taliban until the last second? They knew this was a sinking ship months ago. They had every opportunity in the world to take out all of the equipment that could be and will be used against the United States in the future. It’s not a question of whether we go back to fight the Taliban but rather when we go back to fight the Taliban. Now they have a shit load of equipment that puts them in a better position to take more American lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace1647545504 Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 As several have pointed out trump had a pact with the taliban to get all troops out of afganastan and sleepy joe COULDN'T negate it. AAAAAAAAA..wait a second, wasn't trumps deal supposed to have us out in may, but this is august and we are just getting out. Didn't the deal break when june 1 arrived ?? And maybe if milley wasn't so busy writing a book trashing trump,maybe just maybe he would have a better plan on getting the Americans out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitgeist57 Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 As several have pointed out trump had a pact with the taliban to get all troops out of afganastan and sleepy joe COULDN'T negate it. Sleepy Joe could have negated the deal if he'd wanted to. Who said he couldn't? Is this like when you didn't know the difference between ISIS and the Taliban? :-P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 Greg - You’re telling me the most sophisticated army in the world didn’t suspect that ANA would fall to the Taliban until the last second?. Agree. Kindergarten kids everywhere saw this coming. [emoji849] Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 Agree. Kindergarten kids everywhere saw this coming. [emoji849] Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk Yeah everyone knew the ANA would crumble but evidently nobody put 2 and 2 together and realized that meant the Taliban would seize all of their equipment. Shocked Pikachu dot gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallard Posted August 31, 2021 Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 Even Trump knew it (he was saying it at rallies back in March/April). However, from the interviews that were even happening back in early Aug, the US thought it would take 6 to 9 months for the Taliban to take the entire country. This is why I said above that everyone understood and accepted this would happen, and the Taliban would get ahold of US equipment in the process, it was just the timetable that was wrong. Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallard Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 As several have pointed out trump had a pact with the taliban to get all troops out of afganastan and sleepy joe COULDN'T negate it. AAAAAAAAA..wait a second, wasn't trumps deal supposed to have us out in may, but this is august and we are just getting out. Didn't the deal break when june 1 arrived ?? And maybe if milley wasn't so busy writing a book trashing trump,maybe just maybe he would have a better plan on getting the Americans out.Not sure what others have said, but I brought up the deal negotiated by Trump for a few reasons: - I have Trump supporting friends on Facebook saying that Biden is negotiating with terrorists (the Taliban) about the terms of our evacuation and that Trump would never have done this. They went so far as to call the Taliban "Biden’s boys." - Those same friends also say Trump had a perfect plan for withdrawing from Afghanistan while keeping the peace. - Withdrawing from Afganistan was not a partisan issue. - Trump's deal was negotiated directly with the Taliban, without involving the Afgan government we put in place. - Trump's deal with the Taliban also released 5000 Taliban prisoners. (Art of the Deal, right?) - Trump's deal had a public withdrawal date of May 1. There are people saying that Biden is at fault for publicly telling the Taliban what day we were leaving, and again that this would never have happened under Trump, but Trump also had a date set. - Trump's deal already had a significant draw down of US troops in the country, going from 17,000 down to 2500 by the time Biden took office. IMO, with the restrictions Trump put on the visa process, and a timeline of May 1 for withdrawal I don't see how it would have been possible for him to evacuate 100,000+ people. Those allies were going to be left there. It was going to be just like Syria; a US military withdrawal and fuck all those left behind that stood with us. And now Trump advocating for us to go back in there, saying we should never have left is complete political BS. He's always playing both sides of the coin. Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace1647545504 Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 Sleepy Joe could have negated the deal if he'd wanted to. Who said he couldn't? Is this like when you didn't know the difference between ISIS and the Taliban? :-P You really got me on that one.. sj said he couldn't..different ones have said he couldn't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oh8sti Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 Biden is putting out press releases almost exactly the way trump did, just with a different bravado. Basically saying everything he did is perfect and he’s done something no other president has ever done… Trump was an idiot for doing it then and he was lambasted for it. But now everyone is totally cool with a lying, arrogant narcissist…at least be consistent guys… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oh8sti Posted September 1, 2021 Report Share Posted September 1, 2021 Double Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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