1 in 5 EV owners in Cali going back to ICE

[greg1647545532]

Tech is getting better, charging is getting better. I'd love to see a hybrid that can be forced into all electric mode for every day short driving but can use an ICE for charging or propulsion on long trips when charging isn't readily available.

 

My CMax does that, there's a button to set the EV mode. "EV Now, EV Later, Auto". Of course, the absolute top end of the EV range is about 18 miles so they have to be real short trips, but I like being able to force it not to use the ICE around town, or like to force it to use the ICE on the highway so I can use the battery power on the other end.

 

Eta: I assume the same system is in the Fusion Energi and whatever else they slapped the drivetrain into.

[TTQ B4U]

Tech is getting better, charging is getting better. I'd love to see a hybrid that can be forced into all electric mode for every day short driving but can use an ICE for charging or propulsion on long trips when charging isn't readily available.

 

 

Rav 4 Plug in. Oddly enough, your point about around town was what we were looking at too. It was/is on the list for our family. 42-ish miles EV only for around town which is cool. Add to it, when fully charged it clips off 0-60 in 5 seconds thus around town it's fun factor is there. Think back to the older V6 Rav 4 units. I think if more cars did that it would hurt full EV only sales more because for 90% of what people would do it would be a full EV but on long ass drives, you would have both and have no need to stop and charge. Harder to get and commanding $40k+ fully loaded though, they cross into lower level EV Pricing ranges.

[gillbot]

My CMax does that, there's a button to set the EV mode. "EV Now, EV Later, Auto". Of course, the absolute top end of the EV range is about 18 miles so they have to be real short trips, but I like being able to force it not to use the ICE around town, or like to force it to use the ICE on the highway so I can use the battery power on the other end.

 

Eta: I assume the same system is in the Fusion Energi and whatever else they slapped the drivetrain into.

 

Rav 4 Plug in. Oddly enough, your point about around town was what we were looking at too. It was/is on the list for our family. 42-ish miles EV only for around town which is cool. Add to it, when fully charged it clips off 0-60 in 5 seconds thus around town it's fun factor is there. Think back to the older V6 Rav 4 units. I think if more cars did that it would hurt full EV only sales more because for 90% of what people would do it would be a full EV but on long ass drives, you would have both and have no need to stop and charge. Harder to get and commanding $40k+ fully loaded though, they cross into lower level EV Pricing ranges.

 

I'm going to have to look into this deeper then!

[Trouble Maker]

Rav 4 Plug in.... Think back to the older V6 Rav 4 units.

 

My mom has a V6 RAV4 that's getting up there in age/mileage. She thinks it will last much longer... I kind of doubt it will as long as she's thinking. I've been slowly steering her towards the RAV4 Prime. Hopefully by the time she needs a car, it will be more readily available. I'm not sure now, but when they first came out it seemed like the supply was pretty low.

[99FLHRCI]

My old chevy spark got ~40MPG+ but was $8900 brand new after deals. There are CHEAP ICE cars out there with good gas mileage if that's the primary concern.

 

Not the concern at all, more-so the point. The cheaper and more fuel efficient the ICE car is, the harder to justify an EV is. In my example with my current car, it would take 181,650 miles in my current car to reach the break even point. In your Chevy Spark, it would take over twice as long to break even. (Double the gas mileage, $15k cheaper purchase price) I haven't done the math again but, I am guessing, it would take over 600,000 miles before you hit the break even point. That is if both vehicles could make it that far and have comparable maintenance costs.

[gillbot]

Not the concern at all, more-so the point. The cheaper and more fuel efficient the ICE car is, the harder to justify an EV is. In my example with my current car, it would take 181,650 miles in my current car to reach the break even point. In your Chevy Spark, it would take over twice as long to break even. (Double the gas mileage, $15k cheaper purchase price) I haven't done the math again but, I am guessing, it would take over 600,000 miles before you hit the break even point. That is if both vehicles could make it that far and have comparable maintenance costs.

 

Oh I get ya completely. That's my main gripe with the EV car push, they aren't for everyone and forcing them on people isn't the answer. Hike gas tax or ramp up gas guzzler tax to include all these Karen SUV's. People were buying fuel efficient cars like mad when gas was $5/gal and there was no EV push.

 

I can't wait for the flip side to hit when all we have are EV's and the power grid collapses.

EDIT: Pollution will be worse due to everyone burning gas in a generator that doesn't have strict emissions like a car does.

[zeitgeist57]

My FiL has both a Tesla Model S and a Model 3, with a reservation on the CyberTruck. To say he's a fanboi at 73 years old is an understatement. However, I love dropping them off at the airport when they travel in retirement because my wife and I love using the Model S. Wanted to buy a used S with the prices coming down to a good spot.

 

However, my neighbor just bought a new Pacifica e-hybrid, with both the V6 and a plug-in EV system that runs up to 30 miles e-only. He's had it for 3 weeks and around town has only had to fill it up once, and his app-enabled wall charger only charges the van overnight when kWh costs are cheapest, and he says it's only $0.60 per charge vs $2.60+/gal for gas. Even with highway travel he's seeing a combined 35+MPG equivalent.

 

In addition to the federal tax credit for a Chrysler hybrid, the new cost is only a few thou more than a used Pacifica. It's a really compelling deal for a great minivan with no driving compromises that still scoots.

[Robochan]

A level 2 charger requires 240v service. Most homes do not have this available. You will need to hire an electrician or know how to do the wiring. Yes your charger was $500. Now you need a 60A breaker - $50. Now you need wiring. Let's say you are within 100' of your panel. You need 100' of 4/3 Romex - $950. Your $500 charger is already $2000 and you do not have installation or any of the odds and ends you may need yet. Add in the fact that someone buying a $50k car is probably going to have a decent size home and the box may be further away adding to the cost. This is all if your home is able to handle an additional 60A draw on it's current service. Start trying to charge your car while you are cooking dinner and the wife is doing laundry and your current goes up quickly.

 

“The need” is “your” need. Which everyone agrees driving 100 miles a day is dumb waste of time.

 

Here’s a link to Home Depot for about everything you need to add 220v 30amp outlet somewhere for less than $300. I could have it done in an afternoon. The Tesla included charger will plug right in. It’s perfect for 97% of America’s commuters who drive normal people distances. We have 100amp service and electric range. It all runs just fine. Car only pulls 24amps.

 

https://thd.co/3eVmHSA

 

We got our Model Y in August last year and just hit 11k miles. Done a couple road trips to SC and ATL with no issues.

[2 Sweet]

My dad has a Chevrolet Bolt, and told me Ohio charges an extra $200 fee when he renews his registration every year. Just goes to show that the government will use any excuse to tax us. Gas guzzlers, EVs, hybrids, it doesn't matter. You'll pay bullshit fees no matter what

[Robochan]

My dad has a Chevrolet Bolt, and told me Ohio charges an extra $200 fee when he renews his registration every year. Just goes to show that the government will use any excuse to tax us. Gas guzzlers, EVs, hybrids, it doesn't matter. You'll pay bullshit fees no matter what

 

Yeah the idea being is that EVs don’t pay “road tax” that’s in the cost of gas. Taxation is theft.

[Mensan]

A level 2 charger requires 240v service. Most homes do not have this available. You will need to hire an electrician or know how to do the wiring. Yes your charger was $500. Now you need a 60A breaker - $50. Now you need wiring. Let's say you are within 100' of your panel. You need 100' of 4/3 Romex - $950. Your $500 charger is already $2000 and you do not have installation or any of the odds and ends you may need yet. Add in the fact that someone buying a $50k car is probably going to have a decent size home and the box may be further away adding to the cost. This is all if your home is able to handle an additional 60A draw on it's current service. Start trying to charge your car while you are cooking dinner and the wife is doing laundry and your current goes up quickly.

 

All houses have 240. If they didn't you couldn't use a stove/dryer/air conditioner.

 

The breaker was $20 and the 6/2 wire (You only need #6 for a 60A breaker, and only two conductor) was $100. I don't know who is quoting you these numbers, but definitely get a second opinion. There are multiple electricians in the bay area of California installing Tesla chargers for $250. You should be able to buy a charger and have it installed for $1k or less. I did mine myself.

[Robochan]

All houses have 240. If they didn't you couldn't use a stove/dryer/air conditioner.

 

The breaker was $20 and the 6/2 wire (You only need #6 for a 60A breaker, and only two conductor) was $100. I don't know who is quoting you these numbers, but definitely get a second opinion. There are multiple electricians in the bay area of California installing Tesla chargers for $250. You should be able to buy a charger and have it installed for $1k or less. I did mine myself.

 

The "misinformation" is more of a lack of attention to details and requirements.

 

We agree.

[gillbot]

All houses have 240. If they didn't you couldn't use a stove/dryer/air conditioner.

 

The breaker was $20 and the 6/2 wire (You only need #6 for a 60A breaker, and only two conductor) was $100. I don't know who is quoting you these numbers, but definitely get a second opinion. There are multiple electricians in the bay area of California installing Tesla chargers for $250. You should be able to buy a charger and have it installed for $1k or less. I did mine myself.

 

Unless they use a window unit.

 

Plus #6 is on the low end for a 60a circuit, NM-B/UF-B is only rated at 55a. On mine I pulled three #6 THHN plus a #8 ground which is good for 75a.

[Mensan]

Unless they use a window unit.

 

Plus #6 is on the low end for a 60a circuit, NM-B/UF-B is only rated at 55a. On mine I pulled three #6 THHN plus a #8 ground which is good for 75a.

 

It's 80% continuous duty (60A*0.8=48A). My charger pulls 48A max.

[gillbot]

It's 80% continuous duty (60A*0.8=48A). My charger pulls 48A max.

 

Gotcha, thought about that after I replied. Plus there is no 55a breaker so upping to 60a is allowed assuming you are below the limits of the circuit.

[unfunnyryan]

Unless they use a window unit.

 

Plus #6 is on the low end for a 60a circuit, NM-B/UF-B is only rated at 55a. On mine I pulled three #6 THHN plus a #8 ground which is good for 75a.

 

The overwhelming majority of homes in US/Canada are fed single phase 240v with phases split to provide 120v to standard outlets, 240v on opposite phase arrangement.

 

I can guarantee you there are SIGNIFICANTLY more households (not homes, as this is generally apartments) 208v service which is a Y split from three phase 480v, than there are households without 240v service.

 

I seriously don't know of houses without 240v service, with my only guess being houses with 100+ year old electrical systems

[99FLHRCI]

“The need” is “your” need.

 

Yes it is MY need which is why I don't agree with forcing EV on everyone. Why should I be pigeonholed into a solution that fits YOUR need. My need is a single person vehicle. Cars would be a lot lighter and more fuel efficient if they only fit the driver. Why don't you go get one of those? Oh... cause your need is different. Much like my need for a longer range, faster refueling vehicle is different from yours and we should both have an option that fits our need.

 

Which everyone agrees driving 100 miles a day is dumb waste of time.

 

Sorry didn't realize having to live in a poor county due to being a single income household and commuting to a more well off area that allows me to make prevailing wage, have good benefits, and PTO was a dumb waste of time. Guess I could always live in my Mom's basement or live off the system.

 

Here’s a link to Home Depot for about everything you need to add 220v 30amp outlet somewhere for less than $300. I could have it done in an afternoon. The Tesla included charger will plug right in. It’s perfect for 97% of America’s commuters who drive normal people distances. We have 100amp service and electric range. It all runs just fine. Car only pulls 24amps.

 

https://thd.co/3eVmHSA

 

Your cart is 30A service which as described above limits you to 22 miles per hour (21 on the Model Y)of charge time (half what the system is rated/capable of).

[99FLHRCI]

All houses have 240. If they didn't you couldn't use a stove/dryer/air conditioner.

 

Those are not in every house. Never had to live with just fans? Never thought it was a luxury when you finally got a window A/C for your bedroom and were so happy when it got late and you were allowed to turn it on because electricity costs went down? Never had the unfortunate experience of running out of propane and not being able to use the stove or dryer (or furnace)? Never had a natural gas stove or dryer? Your experience is not the only experience. Thankfully, I feel many here are a little more well off. However, growing up living in a 2 person pull behind trailer with a family of 4, having to walk to my Grandfather's house to shit or shower has given me a different perspective and an appreciation that many of the things we take for granted are not something that everyone gets to enjoy.

 

The breaker was $20 and the 6/2 wire (You only need #6 for a 60A breaker, and only two conductor) was $100. I don't know who is quoting you these numbers, but definitely get a second opinion. There are multiple electricians in the bay area of California installing Tesla chargers for $250. You should be able to buy a charger and have it installed for $1k or less. I did mine myself.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-60-Amp-2-Pole-QPH-22-kA-Circuit-Breaker-Q260H/301884038?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US 60A breaker for $45. Yes they can be had cheaper. But much like car parts, cheaper isn't always better and an installer is going to mark them up. In addition, 6AWG is rated for 55A, and at a 105' you need to up size due to voltage drop. So being 60A and 100', I chose 4AWG. Your house, your project feel free to under size as desired. As far as using 2 conductor, I am not sure how you are getting Ground, L2/Neutral and L1 which are all 3 called for in code and in the installation manual with only 2 wires. Technically Tesla recommends a 14-50 plug that requires 3 wires and a ground with a 60A breaker to achieve maximum charging rate on a Gen3 charger. They are capable of running on a 15A circuit but with slower charge speeds.

[99FLHRCI]

It's 80% continuous duty (60A*0.8=48A). My charger pulls 48A max.

 

My guess is that is your draw because it is a smart charger that will draw based on availability. The wall charger will work on 15-100A circuits and supply power based on it's available draw. A Gen 3 is capable of outputting 48A. In order to put out 48A and draw 48A, you would need a power factor of 1 (perfect) and a lossless charger. Both of which do not exist. If you were to supply your system with a higher input, you could get a higher output.

[gillbot]

The overwhelming majority of homes in US/Canada are fed single phase 240v with phases split to provide 120v to standard outlets, 240v on opposite phase arrangement.

 

I can guarantee you there are SIGNIFICANTLY more households (not homes, as this is generally apartments) 208v service which is a Y split from three phase 480v, than there are households without 240v service.

 

I seriously don't know of houses without 240v service, with my only guess being houses with 100+ year old electrical systems

 

I was simply stating AC isn't always common. I know it is very rare for a house to not have 240v.

Those are not in every house. Never had to live with just fans? Never thought it was a luxury when you finally got a window A/C for your bedroom and were so happy when it got late and you were allowed to turn it on because electricity costs went down? Never had the unfortunate experience of running out of propane and not being able to use the stove or dryer (or furnace)? Never had a natural gas stove or dryer? Your experience is not the only experience. Thankfully, I feel many here are a little more well off. However, growing up living in a 2 person pull behind trailer with a family of 4, having to walk to my Grandfather's house to shit or shower has given me a different perspective and an appreciation that many of the things we take for granted are not something that everyone gets to enjoy.

 

 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-60-Amp-2-Pole-QPH-22-kA-Circuit-Breaker-Q260H/301884038?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US 60A breaker for $45. Yes they can be had cheaper. But much like car parts, cheaper isn't always better and an installer is going to mark them up. In addition, 6AWG is rated for 55A, and at a 105' you need to up size due to voltage drop. So being 60A and 100', I chose 4AWG. Your house, your project feel free to under size as desired. As far as using 2 conductor, I am not sure how you are getting Ground, L2/Neutral and L1 which are all 3 called for in code and in the installation manual with only 2 wires. Technically Tesla recommends a 14-50 plug that requires 3 wires and a ground with a 60A breaker to achieve maximum charging rate on a Gen3 charger. They are capable of running on a 15A circuit but with slower charge speeds.

 

Edit: NM

[99FLHRCI]

I seriously don't know of houses without 240v service, with my only guess being houses with 100+ year old electrical systems

 

I would agree most have 240v available. However since 30A was used until turn of the 50's and the median home age is 1974, I would say there are many places that have not been upgraded. I know the house I sold in 2015 was 60A 120v service. Everything was gas in the house. If I tried to use the microwave while the ex was drying her hair, we often blew fuses. Do I expect many in the suburbs who can afford an EV to have an issue? No. Appalachia? Yes. Old farmhouses? Yes. Inner city slums run by shady landlords? Yes.

 

Overall, I like the option of EV but, I feel it should be just that... an option. To many people can't afford daily necessities let alone the cost of an EV and the required upgrades. To many people have situations that are not conducive to using a EV. I would be much happier to see research put into more fuel efficient cars and hybrids. If they could make a 50mpg mass produced car in 1991, I think we should be able to do better than an overall average of 25mpg currently. EU, Turkey, Japan, and Korea are all much better and we put out more emissions per capita than all of them so it is not an emissions/efficiency issue.

[99FLHRCI]

You're just reaching now. Let it go.

 

You want less of a reach? Or should I say something more able to be accepted because people choose not to see what they don't have to experience?

 

Only 66% of American housing units have access to a garage or carport. Would you install your charger outside? Take out the rental properties such as apartment complexes that are not going to invest in the infrastructure to have chargers at every parking spot in their garage/carport.

[Trouble Maker]

EU, Turkey, Japan, and Korea are all much better and we put out more emissions per capita than all of them so it is not an emissions/efficiency issue.

 

In Japan there are EV DC fast chargers at every rest stop... look up what a Michi-no-eki is, they are really nice. The average person in Japan drives a kei-car, walks or bicycles to local grocery stores and restaurants, takes the train most of the time they travel, and a good chunk of them take trains to work every day. The only new thing I've learned in this thread is that the average American drives a Taurus Sho, constantly says 'EVus and trainz are impossibure', wants to make coal great again, but also complains about our per capita emissions and doesn't know the difference between to and too.

 

Bonus points for not understanding that the emissions other than carbon are orders of magnitude worse on that 50mpg car from 1991 compared to modern cars, not to mention it could never sell now for about 100 other reasons at least half of which are marketability. I'm also going to go out on a really short limb and say that at modern highway speeds it would get worse MPG than a modern fuel efficient car.

[zeitgeist57]

To Jesse's/TJ's points above:

 

If we're REALLY going to kick this EV conversation off the rails, I agree we need to increase population density and use of efficient mass transportation in order to reduce emissions per capita. Trying to get everyone into $40k+ electric cars (and increasing the demand on an aging electric infrastructure) is a huge outlay of personal and government cash..... and yet here we are.

 

Another consideration no one makes is that electric cars are considerably heavier than modern ICE equivalents, even moreso for electrified SUVs/trucks. That puts a HUGE strain on our road and bridge infrastructure, especially when you increase physical strain making everything faster and handle better.

 

HOT TAKE: we need to stop government oil subsidies and roll out a gas tax. Sorry, but needed to be said. Get people into more efficient cars, have them change their transportation behavior (drive less, carpool more, use distance to work/activities as more of a home-buying or rental consideration) and better pay for our crumbling infrastructure.

[Mensan]

My guess is that is your draw because it is a smart charger that will draw based on availability. The wall charger will work on 15-100A circuits and supply power based on it's available draw. A Gen 3 is capable of outputting 48A. In order to put out 48A and draw 48A, you would need a power factor of 1 (perfect) and a lossless charger. Both of which do not exist. If you were to supply your system with a higher input, you could get a higher output.

 

Any circuit in a house that is continuous duty is only allowed to be rated at 80% of the entire circuit rating. This is an NEC requirement. For a 60A breaker that sees continuous duty, 48A is what it will draw.

 

https://www.ecmweb.com/basics/article/20898940/sizing-a-circuit-breaker

 

I have worked in the electrical industry in power distribution and generation since 1995. I have taught electrical theory at the college level to incoming linemen. Trust me when I say that a lot of what you are posting in this thread is incorrect.