Khalid Sheikh Mohammed

[Disclaimer]

That's the same list that alab32 posted...and my rebuttal is the same.

[chevysoldier]

Did you really just comment against my comment also using nothing but anecdotal evidence then saying "please provide resources" when you didn't?

Showing a url with foiled attacks is anecdotal evidence? What do you want me to get? FBI/CIA files for you? I just want to know how you know there weren't many terrorists in IRaq. JRMiii asked to see foiled attack from in the region, and that url had some.

[chevysoldier]

That's the same list that alab32 posted...and my rebuttal is the same.

September 2002, Lackawanna Six: American citizens of Yemeni origin convicted of supporting Al Qaeda after attending jihadist camp in Pakistan. Five of six were from Lackawanna, N.Y.

• June 2005, Father and son Umer Hayat and Hamid Hayat: Son convicted of attending terrorist training camp in Pakistan; father convicted of customs violation.

And sorry. I didn't realize it was the same site.

[chevysoldier]

Geneva Conventions only apply to those that follow the rules. When Al-Qaeda started lopping the heads off of civilian news reporters and using civilian transport as weapons they lost their "rights" under these documents. Due I believe he is owed a trial? I guess so' date=' but I surely don't believe he is owed the benefits of our constitutional rights as an openly sworn enemy of our nation. Part of me wishes that us treating him with respect and due process would change the hearts and minds of our enemies,[b'] but it won't. No matter what we do they will hate us for it. If this is the case he needs to be executed swiftly and harshly. His body need not be paraded about NYC like we're a bunch of fucking neanderthals, but it should be made public how he will be sentenced and punished.

Our biggest problem thus far is not being harsh enough with our enemies. I've mentioned it before, but not funding them sure would put a damper on their activities.

Let me answer this for JRMiii. Please provide sourse showing they would still hate us. This is anecdotal.

[chevysoldier]

Actually a lot of the people from there do like us. They are just scared to speak out. I saw them come up to us and thanks us for what we have done. When they voted for the first time, they had a higher % then we do for our presidential elections. They cared about the right to have a choice. But you don't hear of all the good becuase of bias media like CNN that won't report it.

.

Did you really just comment against my comment also using nothing but anecdotal evidence then saying "please provide resources" when you didn't?

And as far as providing sources for that, I saw it with my own eyes. It happened.

[InyaAzz]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,335500,00.html

Some of those are CONUS, some OCONUS. And I'm sure there are more that have not been released do to sucurity reasons.

Actually a lot of the people from there do like us. They are just scared to speak out. I saw them come up to us and thanks us for what we have done. When they voted for the first time, they had a higher % then we do for our presidential elections. They cared about the right to have a choice. But you don't hear of all the good becuase of bias media like CNN that won't report it.

See above comment and please provide resources.

A lot of people from where? Iraq? The Iraqi people don't speak for the whole of the middle east. I guarantee you, for every 5 people that thanked you, there were at least another 5 that wanted you dead. Of course, they are not going to come up and tell you that to your face in the day time. Sure, there are people there that welcomed you...but you are mistaken if you think Iraqi's and Middle East in general welcomes foreign troops on their sovereign soil. Again..we would not put up with it in our country, why should we expect other people to?

And yes, some of the people shaking your hand in the day time are plotting to kill you at night.

[fusion]

Did you even read the list? How many of those are a result of us being in Iraq or Afghanistan? My response is similar to Justin's.

These types of things were executed and "thwarted" before 9/11 also.

[fusion]

And as far as providing sources for that, I saw it with my own eyes. It happened.

That would fit the definition of anecdotal....

[fusion]

... The GC doesn't apply to this shit bag and that's all I'm bringing into this debate....

I agree with this and that is part of the problem. There needs to be a more widely recognized process for dealing with guys like this.

[jporter12]

That is quite the interesting list. But what does it have to do with the war overseas?... that list looks, predominately, to be terrorists on our own soil.

That's more of a list to argue the merits of the Patriot Act than Operation Enduring Freedom.

Hmm... Where did the terrorists come from that carried out the 9/11/2001 attacks on American soil? From what I've been told, they weren't from the USA!!!!

[chevysoldier]

A lot of people from where? Iraq? The Iraqi people don't speak for the whole of the middle east. I guarantee you, for every 5 people that thanked you, there were at least another 5 that wanted you dead. Of course, they are not going to come up and tell you that to your face in the day time. Sure, there are people there that welcomed you...but you are mistaken if you think Iraqi's and Middle East in general welcomes foreign troops on their sovereign soil. Again..we would not put up with it in our country, why should we expect other people to?

And yes, some of the people shaking your hand in the day time are plotting to kill you at night.

C;mon. You guys wanna use "find facts to back up your story" and yet you keep saying stuff like "I guarantee you, for every 5 people that thanked you, there were at least another 5 that wanted you dead." If I can't say " I saw it with my own eyes, you can't say " I guarentee you". So come up with some hard facts now. You all want me to do that, why don't you do the same??

Don't bring me into the "con vs lib" bullshit. The GC doesn't apply to this shit bag and that's all I'm bringing into this debate. You're back and forth squabbling doesn't concern me.

Wasn't trying to bring you into anything. I was just saying that by JRMiii's thinking, since you have nothing to back this up, it can't be true, like his bearbox thingie. I know what you said is true, you know its true.

[InyaAzz]

C;mon. You guys wanna use "find facts to back up your story" and yet you keep saying stuff like "I guarantee you, for every 5 people that thanked you, there were at least another 5 that wanted you dead." If I can't say " I saw it with my own eyes, you can't say " I guarentee you". So come up with some hard facts now. You all want me to do that, why don't you do the same??

Wasn't trying to bring you into anything. I was just saying that by JRMiii's thinking, since you have nothing to back this up, it can't be true, like his bearbox thingie. I know what you said is true, you know its true.

First of all, I didn't ask you to provide facts, so if you're going to accuse me of something, get it straight.

You provided your opinion, I provided mine, based on spending time overseas and having family that lives in third world countries.

I never said you needed to provide proof or cite a resource. Go back and read. I'll wait.

[InyaAzz]

This thread stopped being on topic a while ago.

[fusion]

That being said' date=' nothing irritates me more than hearing a bunch of Americans debating why we should NOT execute this fucking pile of shit...[/quote']

I don't think anyone is saying he doesn't deserve punishment even if it's execution. I think what is being argued is the process leading to it.

[Bad324]

Personally I feel as though this political correctness bullshit has turned the world to shit. If someone is responislbe for deaths of others ON PURPOSE then fuck em, they should die too....I don't care who it is. Accidents are one thing but to knowingly go out and take a life is what I mean

[InyaAzz]

Al Gore would not be pleased.

[Aerik]

I don't think anyone is saying he doesn't deserve punishment even if it's execution. I think what is being argued is the process leading to it.

Correct. I've only been arguing that one way will serve us better than the other.

[Cheech]

You may see this as a flip-flop on my position, but there was a little story on the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan that I thought was interesting. Before everyone goes all source-happy on me, no, I don't have any, and a quick Google isn't turning up much either. For all I know, this could be bullshit but it raises a good point.

Apparently during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, a squad of Soviet soldiers had sporadic skirmishes with a band of Afghans. During one skirmish, the Soviet squad was able to capture a handful of Afghans. After the Soviets disarmed and restrained the soldiers, and in full view of the captured Afghans, the Soviets dipped their rounds in pig blood and began to execute every soldier save for one, who was released unarmed to return to his camp. The skirmishes on the squad stopped.

[fusion]

I guess I'm much too irritated to reply with any sort of rationale. I'll have to come back once my BP drops a bit. I think I'll go get some sushi and have a tall sake. My fucking hands are shaking I'm so pissed off. This is not good. It's the fucking interwebs' date=' for god's sake. [/quote']

Damn now I'm hungry. Sushi and sake sounds great.

[InyaAzz]

Spring rolls...Egg drop soup...mmmmmm

Guess I know where I'm going for lunch.

[chevysoldier]

You may see this as a flip-flop on my position, but there was a little story on the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan that I thought was interesting. Before everyone goes all source-happy on me, no, I don't have any, and a quick Google isn't turning up much either. For all I know, this could be bullshit but it raises a good point.

Apparently during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, a squad of Soviet soldiers had sporadic skirmishes with a band of Afghans. During one skirmish, the Soviet squad was able to capture a handful of Afghans. After the Soviets disarmed and restrained the soldiers, and in full view of the captured Afghans, the Soviets dipped their rounds in pig blood and began to execute every soldier save for one, who was released unarmed to return to his camp. The skirmishes on the squad stopped.

Hmm, sounds a lot like our situation now. They attacked us, we fought back like a mofo, and attacks have dropped off and we are also catching more threats beforehand because now we are more aware of what we are dealing with. Before this we had never fought an unorganized militia with no set order.

okay teletubbie style:

US Constition protects the rights of US citizen correct?

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is not a US citizen correct?

This wa not an attack against NYC correct?

It was an attack on the USA correct?

Military tribunals exist for the purpose of trying POW's and other military correct?

If we let him be tried in NYC under the US Const. we will set a precident for being soft and allowing a enemy combatant the same rights that he came here to try to ruin.

A NYC trial will add to the debt by using our tax dollars that are not good enough to give a bonus to soldiers.

By fighting in the Middle East, we have disrupted the terrorist networks and they connot group together to create another massacre to the likes of 9/11. This is their home territory and by being there, we keep the upper hand to keep them away from us.

Sure, many that we kill add to those that hate us, but then again, they attacked us. We answered with fire. Had we not done anything do you really think they would not still be hitting us on our home soil? Would they really just stop and say that's good enough for now? If you do you really have no idea of their mentality.

Go look at the stability of Iraq. It's better now than in 2001. Terrorist have and do use that country as a home base. Now I can only speculate why we went into Iraq first and not Afghanistan, only Bush and his people know all the facts. But it does not change the fact we are there and it has had an effect on our life. Try going through airport secuity with a little pocket knife now, you can't do it. You could before 9/11/01. This attacked has slowly eroded away at our way of life. One liberty here, one there. If you cannot see the basics of this conflict then I feel sorry for you. Make sure to pass on to a soldier not to fight overthere becuase your itty bitty handguns will stop a jetliner crashing into your house.

Edited November 16, 2009 by chevysoldier
spelling

[Cheech]

Hmm, sounds a lot like our situation now. They attacked us, we fought back like a mofo, and attacks have dropped off and we are also catching more threats beforehand because now we are more aware of what we are dealing with. Before this we had never fought an unorganized militia with no set order.

.

There are some pretty glaring differences from the yarn I spun and the US ROE as I (a civilian) understand them to be. The one that comes out first is the willingness of the Soviets to use -slam against the enemy soldiers. If you truly "don't give a fuck about what the world thinks", this is the reasoable and proper way, IMHO, to fight an unreasonable and improper religious threat. Take the only thing they believe and turn it against them. However, if we actually attempted to implement this, the ME would be in an UPROAR.

Also, if memory serves, Afghanistan was not the aggressor when the Soviets invaded. Not in front of a PC to look that up, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.

[chevysoldier]

There are some pretty glaring differences from the yarn I spun and the US ROE as I (a civilian) understand them to be. The one that comes out first is the willingness of the Soviets to use -slam against the enemy soldiers. If you truly "don't give a fuck about what the world thinks", this is the reasoable and proper way, IMHO, to fight an unreasonable and improper religious threat. Take the only thing they believe and turn it against them. However, if we actually attempted to implement this, the ME would be in an UPROAR.

Also, if memory serves, Afghanistan was not the aggressor when the Soviets invaded. Not in front of a PC to look that up, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.

I am in no way saying to go out and slaughter them for the fun of it. But it shows that by standing up, they stopped being attacked so often.

[alab32]

Wow... i went to bed LATE so i wake up LATE and this has progressed a lot. Lots of comments I would like to make but it seems that it will be worthless...

[Cheech]

I am in no way saying to go out and slaughter them for the fun of it. But it shows that by standing up, they stopped being attacked so often.

Well, I think you're taking an extreme viewpoint. Nowhere in my anecdote did I say they were slaughtering them for no reason, they were enemy soldiers that had engaged them. You might argue there's some grey area in that they were captured and disarmed, but at the end of the day they had engaged the Soviet forces and thus identified themselves as enemy combatants.

What this is actually showing is by standing up and using the only thing that these people devoutly and completely follow against them, it might be possible to scare the fuck out of them so they settle their skinny brown asses down. I wish we used this as a tactic.