Ammo for your carry gun

[Lost]

chevy.......I enjoy a spirited debate. I am sorry if you interpreted my post as an attack.

Like you my home layout does not allow for a lot of safe shooting lanes. If I am in the bed room I only have one safe lane. Hense the 12 gage. The living room and kitchen has much more latitude.

[Disclaimer]

Rule #2: The Doubletap

[Likwid]

I haven't seen any Umbrella policy contracts so I don't know all it covers... I'd be really interested in reading more but I don't want to go digging through the DOI for filed documents from Geico or Safeco to read their umbrella docs.

I know Umbrella's aren't "complete coverage" for all lawsuits, so I'd want to know what all it covers for a lawsuit.

[chevysoldier]

chevy.......I enjoy a spirited debate. I am sorry if you interpreted my post as an attack.

It's all good. Like I said, I'm just trying to evaluate ALL my options and decide which one will be best for me, like everyone else should do. One gun, one type of ammo, one holster...does not cover all situations. And yes, a shotgun is on my "to buy next" list.

Just so everyone is clear... Rule #2: The Doubletap. You think it’s dead (technically it was before you shot it)' date=' one more makes 100% sure.[/quote']

Which is also illegal. Both by ROE and the Ohio Law. Once the threat is gone, you can't shoot anymore. Now if he's laying on the ground, you go to check him to be sure, he suddenly draws on you again, by all means shoot him. But if he doesn't and you pop one in his head, ballistics will show you were negligent and then you are at fault.

[kawi kid]

http://www.zombielandrules.com/zombieland-rule-2-double-tap/

[walther_gsp]

blah, blah, nonsense, blah,blah, blah

.

Please learn the difference between hollowpoints and frangible rounds before posting about it again.

[walther_gsp]

We should add one to that original post.

"I don't carry because it's cool, I carry because being dead is not cool"

Anyway, back to OP, couple things to think about. Frangible rounds are not penetrating rounds... when you consider 2 layers of clothing and a coat... the last thing I want to be thinking about is "will this stop him?" or "Ok, I need to take 3 shots because that's where my HP/FMJ is in the magazine"... considering what other things people have posted about 21 feet in 1 second and average draw and shoot is 1.5 seconds... I don't want to worry about what round I have chambered.

Yes, knowing what is beyond your target is extremely important, so is not being dead... in an apartment with drywall and a baby in the next room, you should plan ahead, but not risk your family's life... (but I realize you've talked about HD vs carry, I'm just touching on Walther's 'specific situations' comment)

End of the day, carry whatever you feel safe with, and let it be done.

Liability insurance, I don't carry an umbrella policy because I don't have enough assets for it to be worthwhile.

You're learning fast newbie. Very good reasoning as to why just carry "normal" ammo vs alternating rounds.

Don't forget that its all irrelevant if you can't hit what you are aiming at, fast, and every time.

[owndjoo]

has anyone any experience with sub sonic rounds? i've thought about trying them to help with the overpenetration and kick of my subcompact.

[walther_gsp]

has anyone any experience with sub sonic rounds? i've thought about trying them to help with the overpenetration and kick of my subcompact.

In 9mm, its a heavier bullet with a slightly weaker charge to not push it supersonic for use in suppressors. Overpenetration is still possible. Hell, all 45acp loads are subsonic.

Just carry JHP, be mindful of what is behind the target, and try not to overthink it.

[Lost]

now walter I don't remember typing "blah blah nonsense". If you are arguing about the Black Talon quote, please do the research. If you are arguing about the cool to carry comment please create your own thread.

I fully understand the difference in penetration, expansion and implied damage between FMJ, hollow points and frangible rounds.

This is a friendly spirited discussion of our ammo choices.

[Likwid]

Black Talons are JHP....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon

A frangible bullet however:

"Frangible bullets will disintegrate upon contact with a surface harder than the bullet itself."

Black talons may have been incorrectly classified as Frangible in your research because people were originally concerned the jacket on them came apart too easily and because of the ragged "petals" would be hard to remove....

However, Black Talons are FAR from frangible rounds.

Edited December 7, 2009 by Likwid

[Lost]

Issac papa......I was not commenting on CCW, but the single day or weekend CCW courses I need to fix that n my post.

I was not commenting on shooting ability.

I also agree with your point that if the threat is neutralized you can/should not take any addition action...... While I am not worried bout CSI investigating, It just isn't right to finish the guy off if he is down and not a threat.

Edited December 7, 2009 by Lost
addition comment

[owndjoo]

In 9mm, its a heavier bullet with a slightly weaker charge to not push it supersonic for use in suppressors. Overpenetration is still possible. Hell, all 45acp loads are subsonic.

Just carry JHP, be mindful of what is behind the target, and try not to overthink it.

aight, i may still buy a box just to shoot and see how they are. i used to shoot winchester jhp defense rounds in my .40 glock, but didn't carry at the time. Trying to figure out what to carry in my kel-tec pf9

[walther_gsp]

now walter I don't remember typing "blah blah nonsense". If you are arguing about the Black Talon quote, please do the research. If you are arguing about the cool to carry comment please create your own thread.

I fully understand the difference in penetration, expansion and implied damage between FMJ, hollow points and frangible rounds.

This is a friendly spirited discussion of our ammo choices.

Do the research? Hell man I've shot them at waterjugs to compare to other HOLLOWPOINTS. Guess what buddy, they didn't fragment at all. Just expanded like every other hollowpoint we tried that day.

For the last time, Black talons and every other JHP you called by name are not FRANGIBLE rounds.

TAke any of those rounds, and hit the bullet portion with a hammer. Take a Glaser Safety slug, and hit it with a hammer. Then compare the results.

I'm not arguing about the cool to carry comment. I could give a fuck about cool. I'm just tired of 100% wrong information being posted and would prefer to correct you vs having some of the gun newbies take your crap and believe it.

[walther_gsp]

aight, i may still buy a box just to shoot and see how they are. i used to shoot winchester jhp defense rounds in my .40 glock, but didn't carry at the time. Trying to figure out what to carry in my kel-tec pf9

Buy them and a couple other types of self defense ammo. Try them all out and see what works best for you.

[walther_gsp]

Issac papa......I was not commenting on CCW, but the single day or weekend CCW courses I need to fix that n my post.

I was not commenting on shooting ability.

I don't speak for everyone, but in every course I've ever taught I have told my students that a single class wasn't going to make them ready to carry, only to meet the legal requirements. I always encourage folks to take additional training from places like TDI, gunsight, etc....

[owndjoo]

i agree, they basic pistol stuff for CCW is just to satisfy the law. I too believe people need WAY more training to truly be able to carry with confidence and safely. I plan on doing IDPA events when i come back from my USAF security forces training next summer.

[Lost]

likwid thanks for the pictures That picture of the expanded round if frightening.

The Black talon debate is irrelevant any way they haven't been made in a long time.

Walther your point is taken........ My attorney called them frangible and not to put them in your carry gun.......I stand corrected.

[walther_gsp]

likwid thanks for the pictures That picture of the expanded round if frightening.

The Black talon debate is irrelevant any way they haven't been made in a long time.

Walther your point is taken........ My attorney called them frangible and not to put them in your carry gun.......I stand corrected.

Like I said, get a new attorney. He was wrong on both matters.

[Likwid]

likwid thanks for the pictures That picture of the expanded round if frightening.

The Black talon debate is irrelevant any way they haven't been made in a long time.

Walther your point is taken........ My attorney called them frangible and not to put them in your carry gun.......I stand corrected.

Just to be clear (not piling shit on), Black Talons have resurfaced as sXt.... it's argued Black Talons got such a bad rap because of their names... if they named them "fluffy bunnies" noone would have said shit.

:-D I'd be all about putting some fluffy bunny rounds in my XD lol

But also, I've been told not to put frangible rounds in XDs because they can damage the barrel (I can't recall if it was just shotshells or that and frangible)... either way, only premium SD rounds go in my carry magazine.

[Lost]

Likwid in that wiki you posted the SXT rounds are listed as being discontinued.

[walther_gsp]

Just to be clear (not piling shit on), Black Talons have resurfaced as sXt.... it's argued Black Talons got such a bad rap because of their names... if they named them "fluffy bunnies" noone would have said shit.

:-D I'd be all about putting some fluffy bunny rounds in my XD lol

But also, I've been told not to put frangible rounds in XDs because they can damage the barrel (I can't recall if it was just shotshells or that and frangible)... either way, only premium SD rounds go in my carry magazine.

Rumor was SXT stood for Same eXact Thing. The bullet design is different, but my guess is the SXT is just an improved version of the original design.

Never heard of frang rounds hurting a barrel, but I could see the logic in shot shells. However, I doubt any casual use would cause any problems. I've used shotshells in my 1911s for snakes and never noticed any barrel issues.

[Likwid]

Likwid in that wiki you posted the SXT rounds are listed as being discontinued.

Erm yah, they've continued the functionality in the "petal" type hollow points.

PERSONALLY, I prefer the petal hollow points because they seem to provide more reliable expansion. I did exactly what you're doing, googled a bunch, looked at all the pictures then picked Federal HST because it provided the best results.

My source: http://www.btfh.net/shoot/bullet-test-2.html

And because I found this incredibly impressive.

45 ACP vs 9MM

[Likwid]

Also, to add another source to your research, you MUST read this website if you're doing research on carry rounds and penetration.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm

remember, your PERFECT round depends on situation (as walther and others have mentioned)....

For most you want (in no particular order)

expansion - will it expand the same EVERY time?

penetration - will it penetrate through clothing and NOT exit the BG's body (anything with an exit wound means your round had too much power, that energy beyond your target is wasted kinetic energy, and a liability risk)

reliability - If the round won't fire, or loads improperly it's worthless and dangerous

Generally the "perfect round" depends highly on your needs and your weapon... but I'd argue there is no such thing as "the perfect" round.

Edited December 7, 2009 by Likwid

[Lost]

great link Likwid

I need to up size my 12 gage round choice

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

"Birdshot as a Defense Load

I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job."