Carbone Lorraine C44 Brake Pad failure video

[shittygsxr]

I have been on CL for the last two seasons and have never had a problem...

end thread - nick didn't have any fail in two whole years of using them so VW must have done something wrong and the rest of you are stupid:rolleyes:

[serpentracer]

when will you guys learn....

[jbot]

the thing that worries me is that this has happened in multiple instances. after a certain number of failures from a "bad batch", shouldn't they at least put out a bulletin on their website or something saying "if your pads were from batch #XXXX, please do not use them and exchange them for batches #xxxx"?

i'd imagine they're a large enough manufacturer to have traceability to at least that extent.

shit, if they're TS certified, they should have a giant hair fist up their ass from 3rd party inspectors going ape shit on their certification.

[APCh8r]

end thread - nick didn't have any fail in two whole years of using them so VW must have done something wrong and the rest of you are stupid:rolleyes:

I am not saying that but this guy is saying bc of one pad coming apart that they are awful and no one should run them. It is an unfortant stituation but this isn't the only company it has ever happen with I am sure of. As it has already been stated just contact Matthius and deal with the issue with him.

As far as you Garrett, you seem to have a smart ass comment for anything lately...is Kristen aggrevating you lately

[garysol1]

I am not saying that but this guy is saying bc of one pad coming apart that they are awful and no one should run them. )

I missed that part. Where did he say that?

Now me on the other hand would have said all that and more had a pad come apart like that on my bike.

[Disclaimer]

You need airbrakes to slow that pig down gary.

[garysol1]

You need airbrakes to slow that pig down gary.

At my speed Flinstone style brakes work just fine

[RVTPilot]

You need airbrakes to slow that pig down gary.

The only thing that would slow down a 51 headed hot into a corner is some goddman 'busa clogging up the apex. Like trying to pass an aircraft carrier.

[vw151]

I am not saying that but this guy is saying bc of one pad coming apart that they are awful and no one should run them. It is an unfortant stituation but this isn't the only company it has ever happen with I am sure of. As it has already been stated just contact Matthius and deal with the issue with him.

As far as you Garrett, you seem to have a smart ass comment for anything lately...is Kristen aggrevating you lately

How come you don't have me quoted saying that.

I spoke with Mathias. He is giving me a new set of pads, sending the old Pads to France to be looked at.

I just typed a big assed response to someone on the wera forum. I'll just post it here too cause it says what I want to say and more.

starts with a quote from the wera guy.

If you'd like to read the identical thread over there see this link

http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?t=248353

It seems it was most popular there.

Just so you know, I've seen almost every brand of brake pad have a lining separation at some point in my career. Most of the problem sets were on bikes that had either dragging pads or corrosion on the backing plate.

Sometimes you can see the separation happening. The pad material begins to delaminate like a book whose pages got wet. When this happens, it is past time to replace the pads.

Racing pads see a LOT of heat, because the job of brake pads is to convert forward motion into heat through friction. The bonding materials used to attach the pad to the backing are various forms of glues. Glue can fail. Hot pads give off gases, and the gases can form bubbles that separate the lining from the backing.

Like others have suggested, contact the US Importer of Carbone Lorraine, which is Spiegler Performance Parts in Ohio. Talk to Matthias Schaub, I am sure he will want to resolve this problem to your satisfaction. That's just responsible business, from his standpoint AND yours.

To that point, I have to ask: what would it take for you to be satisfied? Replacement pads? Drive the company off the market because one pad failed? (That is only 25% of the pads on ONE motorcycle, hardly a preponderance of their production.) Publicly berate the product to get attention? Save other riders from an "almost" mishap, which is all that you really had? Please post up what you want to accomplish by your somewhat redundant threads.

You accomplished one thing with this. You got me to walk around my shop and look at the brake pads on different bikes. I found a set of Ferodo pads on an old BMW R100S that are starting to delaminate. Nice, one riders saved some inconvenience or worse.

My main reason for posting was awareness and gather insight. I won't lie and tell you I wasn't pissed off when it happened, but then again wouldn't you be?

Although I suspected the problem was due to a defective pad I certainly was not ruling out the possibility that some negligence on my part was not to blame. There is obviously no good way for me to prove one way or the other but I have gathered a lot of good advice from people and it is there for everyone to see. Before this happened I was not aware that it ever happened. Some of you might scoff at me for not knowing all of these things but I have only been playing track rider for about 2 years, you can't just start out knowing everything. I wondered myself whether it was me or defective pads. I'm leaning towards defective pads but the pictures and video and dialog is there. You are all welcome to be the judge, I really don't care what you think as long as you are aware of the facts.

You know at the very least, I'll know to inspect my brake pads more closely to see if they are delaminating no matter what the brand. Might seem like common sense to some but not all of us have the years of hard knocks to look back on.

I have no intention of driving Carbone Lorraine out of business or smearing their name and I don't really believe that little old me and my youtube video really has the clout to do that anyway. I have heard very good things about their products and I am a realistic person who realizes that these things happen from time to time. In fact, prior to the failure I was very impressed with the feel and stopping power they added compared to the stock pads. However, if they do in fact have a defective product on the market then people deserve to know about it at the very least. It doesn't seem that their pads are all junk but it does seem that there may have been a bad batch of the C44 race pads about 2 years back that could still be being sold through some distributors. Probably even more likely to be sold to someone like me running a 2003 GSX-R750 which is a few generations old and probably doesn't generate the demand of the newer bikes.

I have spoken to Mathias on the phone. He is giving me a new set of the latest pads and I am giving him mine to get evaluated. He is going to send them back to France to be looked at. I am happy with that. I am not sure what else I could want from him. I didn't get injured or die and if I had I'm not the type to sue but I think it's a serious issue none the less. BTW, you are all right, Mathias is very pleasant to deal with and seems like an all around good and knowledgeable guy, he resonated some of the same advice I have heard on the board tonight about cleaning pistons, not running the pads too long, and so on and so forth. However he did not confirm there was a defective pad on the market but did admit to having this issue back in 2007 at least once. I didn't press him on the issue any further than that.

Further, I have heard of more than 1 instance of this exact pad failing. I have received a few PMs on several boards from people that did not want to raise a stink explaining they had the same thing happen. Lizard1 also had a post awhile back where he had the same thing happen but didn't name the pad. He actually had the failure at very high speed on Mid-OH's back straight. It has since came out that he was running the exact same pad as me. Surely, Lizard1, the ex AMA rider and long time STT instructor had properly maintained brakes on his super sport prepped GSX-R1000 when he was running this pad. I'm just saying. This is one of the reasons I don't understand why he of all people is not supporting me in making people aware. It just seems that multiple failures of a very specific type of pad suggests there was a defect. Even if it was just a limited run or batch. Do you want to let your friends run this risk?

Lastly. I posted a cut down version of this video in my Barber Report thread because it was part of the "bad day" I had on Sunday. My bike had a few problems that day. I felt that once I had an edited video of the brake pad failure it deserved it's own thread. I only posted it on all the forums that I'm a member on because I wanted everyone to see it. Sorry to those of you who are on multiple boards as well it's just something you'll have to deal with reading the same thing over and over. It seems to be most popular here on the wera board though.

[Disclaimer]

The only thing that would slow down a 51 headed hot into a corner is some goddman 'busa clogging up the apex. Like trying to pass an aircraft carrier.

You're just a hater.

[garysol1]

Pfffffffffffffffffftttttttttt.....who needs a catapult....

You're just a hater.

[Disclaimer]

Touche'

You think we've derailed vw's thread enough?

Don't use french brakes. Got it.

[shittygsxr]

I am not saying that but this guy is saying bc of one pad coming apart that they are awful and no one should run them. It is an unfortant stituation but this isn't the only company it has ever happen with I am sure of. As it has already been stated just contact Matthius and deal with the issue with him.

As far as you Garrett, you seem to have a smart ass comment for anything lately...is Kristen aggrevating you lately

Well two people on this site having the problem with the same pad could be a deterrent to stay away from that particular pad. Maybe and this is a big maybe if Brian had said the pad name when his failed it would not have happened to Joe. I would feel bad if I held out on some info and somebody got hurt.

They made a batch of bad pads, it happens to every manufacturer. We don't need to blame Joe its not his fault.

[vw151]

Well two people on this site having the problem with the same pad could be a deterrent to stay away from that particular pad. Maybe and this is a big maybe if Brian had said the pad name when his failed it would not have happened to Joe. I would feel bad if I held out on some info and somebody got hurt.

They made a batch of bad pads, it happens to every manufacturer. We don't need to blame Joe its not his fault.

Are you talking about this post? It seems drew sort spilled the beans in the end but there was no say about whether it was C44s or SBK pads and Brian also seems to actually fully admit a batch issue.

http://www.ohio-riders.com/showthread.php?t=14233

Trust me, there's plenty of room at the end of the back straight at Mid-Ohio to get stopped or slowed enough to turn and make 7...

Had an interesting issue show it's face yesterday at Mid-Ohio.

Running down the back straight about 1/2 way through our session and popped up out of tuck to get slowed for 7 and the lever comes all the way back to the bar. NO pressure. Zero.

Kinda did an "Oh shit" thing in the head, but knew to keep pumping the lever in hopes it would come back enough to work. No dealio. All the while, I was locking the rear. Good thing that even though I suck at MX, I wasn't horrified at being so sideways.

Drew, I got you beat on being sideways into a turn...

As I finally got slowed enough and was able to turn in at the very edge of the outside edge, I was looking at the brakes and thinking I'd see fluid or something busted a line, etc. I have a wrist band on the reservoir so, I couldn't see if there was fluid or not.

Lever never pumped much at all so, I rear braked it back into the pits.

Checked the system and no signs of any issues. Until I took the calipers off to look at the pads... The left side inner pad had lost it's brake compound. Yes, it came off the backing plate.

I had passed Monte and while going into turn one where you don't use a lot of brake, he was hit with something in the chest. He thought it was a bird that swooped off the bridge and he hit it. It was the brake compound. I, of course had no clue until at the end of the back straight...

I won't say what pads they were until I see what they do about it. I will say, they weren't Vesrahs.

Never really trusted the brakes the rest of the day, but overall, was fine enough to have some fun.

In 14 years of racing, NEVER had this happen. Know EBC had an issue YEARS ago, but never experienced it. Ever. Brakes are the one thing that if you cannot trust them, it makes it pretty tough to ride hard. The Vesrahs had me kicking myself as to why I even thought to switch...

But, when we tell the riders in classrooms and such that the track is plenty wide enough to get slowed and not panic and cram the brakes, I am here to say we aren't full of shit...

Edited March 27, 2010 by vw151

[vw151]

Touche'

You think we've derailed vw's thread enough?

Don't use french brakes. Got it.

lol, I expect it from you guys.

[max power]

I told my grandfather about this thread and this is what he had to say about it:

The French, like their brake pads, give up easily. Buy your brake pads from the Japanese.

Those motherfuckers dont give up til you kill every last one of 'em.

[shittygsxr]

Are you talking about this post? It seems drew sort spilled the beans in the end but there was no say about whether it was C44s or SBK pads and Brian also seems to actually fully admit a batch issue.

http://www.ohio-riders.com/showthread.php?t=14233

his pad fail their fault, your pads fail somehow it is your fault and they are spent. Doesn't make sense to me, I just don't fucking get it. I think I need another break fro this site. How do all of you guys put up with this shit ?

Edited March 27, 2010 by shittygsxr

[magley64]

UN-acceptable...

you're dealing with peoples lives here, and "we got a bad batch" is all of a sudden an acceptable answer? Even worse, it wasn't made public in the form of a recall?

so that must mean lizard's was the ONLY one to fail, then VW's was the second one to fail...right?

[quessimasquid]

thanks for sharing . product review and experience is a GOOD thing as long as it doesnt become 'hater' nation.

[jblosser]

his pad fail their fault, your pads fail somehow it is your fault and they are spent. Doesn't make sense to me, I just don't fucking get it. I think I need another break fro this site. How do all of you guys put up with this shit ?

Nevermind, I was feeling snippy (not toward Shitty or V-Dub), but it has passed. Mom always said if I didn't have something nice to say...., so I'll keep quiet.

Edited March 27, 2010 by jblosser
added "or V-Dub" in case of confusion

[vw151]

his pad fail their fault, your pads fail somehow it is your fault and they are spent. Doesn't make sense to me, I just don't fucking get it. I think I need another break fro this site. How do all of you guys put up with this shit ?

When you say "this shit" do you mean "Brian" ???

Just wondering..... he's really the only one who has really gone out of his way on all of the forums to make it my fault and tell me I'm wrong for sharing. Most everyone else has pretty much just had constructive criticism in my eyes even if it was served with a side of bad attitude. I'm trying to keep an open mind but admittedly Brian's posts pissed me off a little. I wonder why Brian didn't call Drew out for saying the name in his thread? Maybe to maintain some level of secrecy. I guess I just don't get it either. Is more information not better than less information.

Edited March 27, 2010 by vw151

[shittygsxr]

When you say "this shit" do you mean "Brian" ???

Just wondering..... he's really the only one who has really gone out of his way on all of the forums to make it my fault and tell me I'm wrong for sharing. Most everyone else has pretty much just had constructive criticism in my eyes even if it was served with a side of bad attitude. I'm trying to keep an open mind but admittedly Brian's posts pissed me off a little. I wonder why Brian didn't call Drew out for saying the name in his thread? Maybe to maintain some level of secrecy. I guess I just don't get it either. Is more information not better than less information.

Exactley

[Moto-Brian]

Agreed. I have raced and do race my personal vehicles here and there and my brakes take a pounding. I have NEVER seen a pad with that much material left be considered bad. If you overheated the material and cooked the pad that's one thing, but if you aren't losing braking and didn't overcool it, there's no reason the material should leave the backing plate. That's poor manufacturing, brake pads should last until you almost grind to the backing plate. That's pretty much the standard. A pad delaminating like that IS a big deal.

Also, Brian, you say you called Mathias and he offered up a different compound pad to try and now you use them? What happened to the compound that failed on you? Just dismissed it? Or did I miss something in that read.

The pads are thicker than what they show now in his pics. I can maybe go and pull a new set and take a shot. The big issue is the leading edge where it is crumbling. Possibly from too much heat and they got brittle and started to crumble at the leading edges? Not sure. I honestly don't have a clue and am by no means supporting C/L on this.

I think the replacement compound is the C55 which is what i am using now - not the C44s... The C44s are not the race pads we use...

I agree it shouldn't happen and I have taken Vesrahs to almost the backing plate and had zero issues. However, the pads I have now are not crumbling on the leading edge and the ones I had that delaminated did...

I think what is happening is that the process by which they bond the braking material to the baking plate is different now. I also believe they MIGHT have changed the compound to prevent the crumbling. Like I said, the ones I have now are not crumbling...

The compound that failed on me caused me to get my money back and go back to Vesrah. Issue came up where I needed pads for Mid-Ohio and couldn't get Mark to get back with me in time and so, I talked with Mathias and he told me that things were somewhat different and they feel it shouldn't be an issue. Not sure why I tried, but I did and so far, (knock on wood) I have been fine with them...

Also, I did dismiss it since I tried the newer ones and felt that if it happened again, the odds of it happening off the back straight at Mid-Ohio at full tilt was slim. Maybe I am crazy for that mentality...

[Moto-Brian]

Lizard1 also had a post awhile back where he had the same thing happen but didn't name the pad. He actually had the failure at very high speed on Mid-OH's back straight. It has since came out that he was running the exact same pad as me. Surely, Lizard1, the ex AMA rider and long time STT instructor had properly maintained brakes on his super sport prepped GSX-R1000 when he was running this pad. I'm just saying. This is one of the reasons I don't understand why he of all people is not supporting me in making people aware. It just seems that multiple failures of a very specific type of pad suggests there was a defect. Even if it was just a limited run or batch. Do you want to let your friends run this risk?

Dude, first of all, when I posted that thread, I didn't mention names because I hadn't yet TALKED to Mathias about it. Maybe it WAS something I did wrong. Maybe it WAS that I tried to run the pads too long and get as much out of them as possible.

I'm not an Ex-AMA rider. Please don't over exaggerate things. Never speak as if I am the fastest guy, I never tell people I am better than anyone. That's a little bit of BS right there and makes me somewhat a little pissed.

I support what you are saying. However, to keep posting new threads and adding videos is going to a bit of extreme. Bringing it up and explaining your side is enough. Adding videos and extras tends to be as if you are wanting attention.

I told my friends. I told those that were close to me. It's not my style to smear anyone and I understand that it is rare this happened and gave it a second chance. I refused to try another set until the newest batch came out. You are doing the same. Kudos for trying.

Just tread a little more lightly on making me sound like a goody too-shoes... I'm furthest from that.

[Moto-Brian]

Well two people on this site having the problem with the same pad could be a deterrent to stay away from that particular pad. Maybe and this is a big maybe if Brian had said the pad name when his failed it would not have happened to Joe. I would feel bad if I held out on some info and somebody got hurt.

They made a batch of bad pads, it happens to every manufacturer. We don't need to blame Joe its not his fault.

So it is my fault it happened? Fucking serious? What if he would have gotten killed? Would I be responsible because I didn't mention the pad company? Holy shit, man...

There are others that had the same thing happen. Are they responsible, too? It could have EASILY been a fault on my end. Blaming the company and finding out I could have contributed to the issue would have looked pretty bad on my end.

C44s were the ones that went bad. C55s seem to work fine. Now, if VW has the same thing happen and he gets hurt or killed, am I off the hook since they seem to work fine for me?

Wow.