May just get Mag rims

[Moto-Brian]

I'll agree that there is no "magic number" that works for everyone. However, those "magic numbers" give you a starting point, and a frame of reference for every adjustment you make. If you don't know where you're starting, how do you know where to go?

There are two ways to do it:

1. Listen to your buddy that runs 6mm of static sag in the rear, the other guy that dropped his forks 2.0mm into the top tree, the dude that pitted next to you that's raised the rear 12.0mm, and that internet post on gixxer.com that said "you have to use the 2.5mm offset swing arm pivots". Ride the bike, and make adjustments to everything you can, every time you pit, and HOPE that you get something that works.
   
2. Take your bike to a shop that specializes in chassis set up and geometry. Have them measure your bike and set it up to a set of known set of values. Ride the bike, and make small changes, one at a time based on the feedback you're getting while you're on the track.

I've tried both, and for my money I'll pick #2 every time. It may cost more (about the price of a power commander and a custom map), but the time it takes to get a good set up underneath you is much shorter, plus you'll learn a lot more about how your bike works in the process.

That is absolutely the truth about #1... There are so many people that will give you what "they" think you should run. I'm all for checking with a buddy who is running as fast or faster with the EXACT same set-up as you and seeing where he is and go from there. However, getting the "sweet" numbers is a GREAT place to start from and work from there.

Too many opinions on sites that have a bunch of idiots trying to tell you what you should do. When, in fact, they probably have never been at pace on a track before...

[Todd#43]

That is absolutely the truth about #1... There are so many people that will give you what "they" think you should run. I'm all for checking with a buddy who is running as fast or faster with the EXACT same set-up as you and seeing where he is and go from there. However, getting the "sweet" numbers is a GREAT place to start from and work from there.

Too many opinions on sites that have a bunch of idiots trying to tell you what you should do. When, in fact, they probably have never been at pace on a track before...

If you're really serious about racing, you should be really serious about what you have underneath you. In my opinion, too many people dont really care.

There are also plenty of people that think its all bullshit. Look at any type of professional racing (cars or bikes) and they all put a premium on set up. Shock dynos, chassis measurement, etc. Believe me, if it didnt matter or give them an advantage they wouldnt spend the money on it.

My question is this...why would you spend large money to have the best suspension, brakes, and wheels you could afford, and not spend a dime to make sure they're set up the way they need to be?

[owndjoo]

You better watch it there kiddo... Talk like that is going to have people thinking you're growing up!! You feeling alright?

lmao, i know i know, wth is happening to me?? maybe it's that i live on my own now. haha. let's see if it translates to track.... oh and when are we gonna meet up for a beer?

[flounder]

lmao, i know i know, wth is happening to me?? maybe it's that i live on my own now. haha. let's see if it translates to track.... oh and when are we gonna meet up for a beer?

I LIKE BEER....

[Chrisoh]

I am not getting the Wheels, but I still don't have the feel to even suggest what changes might help.

Heck I am not even having problems with the BTs that aren't rider error. I wish I could, but I don't know what is my problem and what is the bikes problem. The way it was setup at Tally, I can't fault the bike since I am sure that everything there was all rider error.

I like my bike to be solid, when I have had the rear softer I feel like it wallows (which might be rider throttle or bar input).

I agree Suspension is the most important part of a race bike....

And I am not trying to change geometry between sessions I don't have the luck, temper restraint, or patience (Dislocated my finger at Tally punching the trailer ramp after several problems just trying to get my lock nut loose on the rear shock).

With all this, do you really think I will be able to tell the difference in different tires?

[Todd#43]

I am not getting the Wheels, but I still don't have the feel to even suggest what changes might help.

Heck I am not even having problems with the BTs that aren't rider error. I wish I could, but I don't know what is my problem and what is the bikes problem. The way it was setup at Tally, I can't fault the bike since I am sure that everything there was all rider error.

I like my bike to be solid, when I have had the rear softer I feel like it wallows (which might be rider throttle or bar input).

I agree Suspension is the most important part of a race bike....

And I am not trying to change geometry between sessions I don't have the luck, temper restraint, or patience (Dislocated my finger at Tally punching the trailer ramp after several problems just trying to get my lock nut loose on the rear shock).

With all this, do you really think I will be able to tell the difference in different tires?

Chris - you need to start with a base-line set up. Base line the suspension front and rear and the bike's geometry. If you don't know where you're at to start with, any changes you make are guess work and will most likely get you further off the mark at the worst, or frustrated at best.

Once you have a base setup, work with the guy that measured the bike and set the geometry. Tell him what the bike is or isn't doing. You know, won't finish a corner...twitchy on entry...etc. They can then tell you what you need to change.

Keep going the way you're going, and a dislocated finger will be the least of your worries.

[owndjoo]

tires are the #1 thing that will make a difference. it goes Tires,suspension,motor when it comes to setup. The suspension can't do it's job if the tires dont grip and a motor is a waste if you can't hook it up. believe me it makes a hell of a difference. I tried michelins for a few weeks, couldnt do shit, switch back to pirelli and i instantly took seconds off my laps. tires are the most important part, period.

also though, i didnt do any setup changes when i switched tire manufacturers. each tire requires a different setup

[Todd#43]

tires are the #1 thing that will make a difference. it goes Tires,suspension,motor when it comes to setup. The suspension can't do it's job if the tires dont grip and a motor is a waste if you can't hook it up. believe me it makes a hell of a difference. I tried michelins for a few weeks, couldnt do shit, switch back to pirelli and i instantly took seconds off my laps. tires are the most important part, period.

also though, i didnt do any setup changes when i switched tire manufacturers. each tire requires a different setup

I dunno...you could have "the best" tires in the world, but if your bike isn't set up right (suspension & geometry) you cant do shit.

I've seen people turn quick laps on shagged tires at the end of an endurance race - because the bike was set up right.

I agree that the right tire is a BIG part of the package, but I think you've got to have the rest in line too - to be comfortable and turn quick laps.

[owndjoo]

yes you have to have the complete package, but the tires are what is actually touching the pavement. suspension means nothing if the tires can't grip. give me a shagged pirelli over a new bridgestone. me and brian often ride totally shagged out tires at trackdays and will run in the 1.36's on tires no one should be riding on(talkin cheesegraded through the wearbars with a wire showin), my suspension was nowhere near set right, but with good tires you can still go real fast.

you can go out on a STOCK bike with race tires and haul ass, modern bikes come with pretty damn good suspension from the factory now, you'll gain more with tires, especially since he's already got the suspension bits, set the sag, get some pirellis or michelins and haul ass

[Todd#43]

yes you have to have the complete package, but the tires are what is actually touching the pavement. suspension means nothing if the tires can't grip. give me a shagged pirelli over a new bridgestone. me and brian often ride totally shagged out tires at trackdays and will run in the 1.36's on tires no one should be riding on(talkin cheesegraded through the wearbars with a wire showin), my suspension was nowhere near set right, but with good tires you can still go real fast.

you can go out on a STOCK bike with race tires and haul ass, modern bikes come with pretty damn good suspension from the factory now, you'll gain more with tires, especially since he's already got the suspension bits, set the sag, get some pirellis or michelins and haul ass

I dunno...tires dont grip if the suspension isn't right. The bike doesn't turn if the suspension and geometry aren't right. I think a good rider can probably ride through any of the problems and still turn quick laps.

I've never seen Chris ride, and I have no idea what his skill level is. By the tone of his posts though, it really seems like he's completely lost about why his bike does what it does, and how to change it. If he's really tied to the 'stones, he should run them - but he should take the time and spend the money to set the bike up to run them. When his skill level exceeds the tires, then change.

[owndjoo]

the whole thing is though, that the bikes come setup pretty well. you can grab a bike off the showroom floor, go to the track, and turn quick laps with the proper tires, just look at the roadracingworld demos with chris ulrich on the new bikes. but there's a difference between quick laps, and racing. I personally dont really mess with geometry. i got the forks built and slapped in a shock with the ride height cranked up a lil bit, set the sag and go. then dial the suspension in on NEW tires. ride the piss outta the bike and get lots of seat time, then start really playing with it, make big adjustments to see how it feels with too much/too little damping/rebound so you will know what to adjust at different tracks when you feel that. it's all about tracktime though. and seriously, get better tires.

[Todd#43]

the whole thing is though, that the bikes come setup pretty well. you can grab a bike off the showroom floor, go to the track, and turn quick laps with the proper tires, just look at the roadracingworld demos with chris ulrich on the new bikes. but there's a difference between quick laps, and racing. I personally dont really mess with geometry. i got the forks built and slapped in a shock with the ride height cranked up a lil bit, set the sag and go. then dial the suspension in on NEW tires. ride the piss outta the bike and get lots of seat time, then start really playing with it, make big adjustments to see how it feels with too much/too little damping/rebound so you will know what to adjust at different tracks when you feel that. it's all about tracktime though. and seriously, get better tires.

You're right, suspension components from the factory are far better than they used to be. The geometry isnt too bad either. It sounds like Chris has changed just about EVERYTHING on the bike that could be changed and now he doesnt know where anything is.

I was skeptical too about the geometry being important - until I did it. I got faster, was more comfortable, and tire wear was improved.

Maybe you'd be faster too, if you tried it?

[owndjoo]

i'm sure that if i pulled the CarrMoto boys out to the track for a couple days of testing setup that i would definitely get faster, that's actually what i'm gonna try to do this year. Now that i'm truly gonna make a run at the AMA level this year, i'm gonna be doing everything in my power to get as fast as possible come august. I'm planning on doing mid-o for sure with the possibility of VIR and Road Atlanta as well. I spent the last two years working on myself, it's the cheapest way to go fast and the most important, i got to the point last year that i was actually pushing the bike, so this year the focus is on the bike as well as furthering my skills

[Todd#43]

i'm sure that if i pulled the CarrMoto boys out to the track for a couple days of testing setup that i would definitely get faster, that's actually what i'm gonna try to do this year. Now that i'm truly gonna make a run at the AMA level this year, i'm gonna be doing everything in my power to get as fast as possible come august. I'm planning on doing mid-o for sure with the possibility of VIR and Road Atlanta as well. I spent the last two years working on myself, it's the cheapest way to go fast and the most important, i got to the point last year that i was actually pushing the bike, so this year the focus is on the bike as well as furthering my skills

I'm not familiar with CarrMoto, but if they know bike geometry and set up, I'm sure it will be money well spent.

There are other alternatives out there when it comes to the chassis. PM me if you want to know more about it.

Good luck with your run at the AMA!

[owndjoo]

it's a ducati dealership in Indy, rubin frankenfield and matt carr run the racing stuff. rubin is a long time veteran who is VERY fast and very knowledgable, runs the suzuki development endurance team and whatnot he's my engine builder and hopefully my mentor for this year, matt is an ohlins man with lots of suspension knowledge and a disgusting lust for anything ducati. between the pair of them they should be able to dial the bike in perfectly and teach me how to adjust everything when i'm on my own.

i'm hopin to drop 4 seconds at mid-ohio, that'd put me right around the top 20 in FX iirc. ran 1.34.3 multiple times at the RRGC last year. i'd actually be thrilled to just get into the .32 or .31 range, i've never pushed the front on this bike, so there's plenty of room for me to go faster in the corners too. with 20 more horse(hopefully) and a dialed in suspension i can see me doin it, not to mention i've dropped almost 15lbs from last year and am actually taking my training seriously this year. we'll see if i can do it

[Moto-Brian]

Well, not sure where to be on which side of the arguement of sorts...

I can say this - Ask Reuben if there is an importance in a good set of tires... Second, ask him if suspension is worth the investment...

Both answers will be yes.

My belief is that good tires aren't worth shit if your suspension set-up is crap. Drew saw that in switching to Michelin. If you don't go for proper st-up, you'll destroy the tires quickly and essentially making them ineffective.

However, if you run crappy tires with good suspension, your ability will cause the tires to be usable or ineffective. Reuben would never run Bridgestones. If he did, he'd be able to ride beyond their ability to keep up to pace had he run Pirellis...

Now, could he find a set-up that would make the Stones better for him? Sure. Will they ever be as good as the top three in terms of DOTs? No.

Point is that this all started over wheels... Wheels are an add-on that doesn't make sense. Look at the Superbike class that guys like Jensen, Jacobi, Caylor, etc. run in at times (Depending if there is money to be earned) - they run Superstock set-up. No fancy wheels, no pivot untis installed - just good suspension, good tires and good motors. Period.

I think the idea of having the better tires isn't because they are "better", but because you can access information that more riders are going to have available for those tires.

Chris - answer this - How many guys run Bridgestones? Pirellis? Dunlops? Michelins?

The answer is where you need to look. Pirelli is probably the most run tire brand. With that said, MANY riders at MANY different abilities will be on those tires. You can share notes, take information and try things without being so in the dark.

Suspension set-up is key to EACH brand. A Dunlop set-up doesn't work for a Pirelli tire, doesn't work for a Pirelli, etc.... The issue is that none of us can give you any real help in terms of ride height, chassis numbers, etc. due to nobody runs those tires.

Reuben can help you find a basic starting point, but unless you hire him to come to the races and tune for you, he'll ask the same questions we are asking you...

You need to learn what the bike is doing. You need to understand what each click does and what results need to be seen. You need to understand what the components will do in union and when to recognize when they aren't working together...

It isn't as simple as numbers, clicks, tires, etc. It all takes time. Seat time...

[Chrisoh]

Well, not sure where to be on which side of the arguement of sorts...

I can say this - Ask Reuben if there is an importance in a good set of tires... Second, ask him if suspension is worth the investment...

Both answers will be yes.

My belief is that good tires aren't worth shit if your suspension set-up is crap. Drew saw that in switching to Michelin. If you don't go for proper st-up, you'll destroy the tires quickly and essentially making them ineffective.

However, if you run crappy tires with good suspension, your ability will cause the tires to be usable or ineffective. Reuben would never run Bridgestones. If he did, he'd be able to ride beyond their ability to keep up to pace had he run Pirellis...

Now, could he find a set-up that would make the Stones better for him? Sure. Will they ever be as good as the top three in terms of DOTs? No.

Point is that this all started over wheels... Wheels are an add-on that doesn't make sense. Look at the Superbike class that guys like Jensen, Jacobi, Caylor, etc. run in at times (Depending if there is money to be earned) - they run Superstock set-up. No fancy wheels, no pivot untis installed - just good suspension, good tires and good motors. Period.

I think the idea of having the better tires isn't because they are "better", but because you can access information that more riders are going to have available for those tires.

Chris - answer this - How many guys run Bridgestones? Pirellis? Dunlops? Michelins?

The answer is where you need to look. Pirelli is probably the most run tire brand. With that said, MANY riders at MANY different abilities will be on those tires. You can share notes, take information and try things without being so in the dark.

Suspension set-up is key to EACH brand. A Dunlop set-up doesn't work for a Pirelli tire, doesn't work for a Pirelli, etc.... The issue is that none of us can give you any real help in terms of ride height, chassis numbers, etc. due to nobody runs those tires.

Reuben can help you find a basic starting point, but unless you hire him to come to the races and tune for you, he'll ask the same questions we are asking you...

You need to learn what the bike is doing. You need to understand what each click does and what results need to be seen. You need to understand what the components will do in union and when to recognize when they aren't working together...

It isn't as simple as numbers, clicks, tires, etc. It all takes time. Seat time...

You nailed the part I don't see that I am capable of doing. I don't feel I have the feel to even attempt to give suggestions on what the bike is doing. Yeah I can feel the major things like the front feeling like it has 10 psi in it mid corner,

But with the Sag numbers set, I seriously doubt i have enough feel and ability to make it any better.

Unless I just give the bike to Ruben to ride and setup for me I feel I am about as good as my ability will allow.

Since I feel I am not fast enough to benefit from other tires I don't see a reason to waste money on tires I will not get any benefit from. I base this on the fact that I am still 2 seconds or more off Top Novice times. At those times I think I am just wasting $$ and wasting better tires. If I thought I would actually get faster then maybe.

[Moto-Brian]

You nailed the part I don't see that I am capable of doing. I don't feel I have the feel to even attempt to give suggestions on what the bike is doing. Yeah I can feel the major things like the front feeling like it has 10 psi in it mid corner,

But with the Sag numbers set, I seriously doubt i have enough feel and ability to make it any better.

Unless I just give the bike to Ruben to ride and setup for me I feel I am about as good as my ability will allow.

Since I feel I am not fast enough to benefit from other tires I don't see a reason to waste money on tires I will not get any benefit from. I base this on the fact that I am still 2 seconds or more off Top Novice times. At those times I think I am just wasting $$ and wasting better tires. If I thought I would actually get faster then maybe.

However, setting the bike up for Reuben isn't going to benefit you, either. Unless you are as fast as Reuben, it won't work for you.

My point is this - you NEED to learn these things. However, you can tell someone (Me, Reuben, Matt, Drew, etc.) what the bike is or isn't doing. We can hopefully translate or look at your tires, etc and help/offer suggestions.

However, you riding on shit tires is going to limit that amount of suggestion, limit you as a rider and above all, leave you really in the dark when it comes time to ask someone with a similar set-up.

Just get to Mid-O for an STT event and we can go over stuff. You're racking your brain too much. I know you understand what things do. You're coming off as sounding like you can't and will never know. If that's the case, you shouldn't be racing. I know it to be otherwise. We'll talk and get you up to speed.

Promise.

[Todd#43]

You nailed the part I don't see that I am capable of doing. I don't feel I have the feel to even attempt to give suggestions on what the bike is doing. Yeah I can feel the major things like the front feeling like it has 10 psi in it mid corner,

But with the Sag numbers set, I seriously doubt i have enough feel and ability to make it any better.

Unless I just give the bike to Ruben to ride and setup for me I feel I am about as good as my ability will allow.

Since I feel I am not fast enough to benefit from other tires I don't see a reason to waste money on tires I will not get any benefit from. I base this on the fact that I am still 2 seconds or more off Top Novice times. At those times I think I am just wasting $$ and wasting better tires. If I thought I would actually get faster then maybe.

Dude....basics first...

The bike is too hard to turn in.

If I get on the gas, the bike wants to run wide.

When I'm on the brakes it feels like the front is sliding.

That O-ring I put on my inner fork tube is all the way against the fork leg lower.

The bike shakes like a hound dog trying to shit a peach pit going down the back straight.

What the bike is doing is pretty basic. You need to be able to relay that kind of information to someone whos helping you with the set up.

Base Line your suspension and geometry for whatever tires you want to run. Until you have a frame of reference to work from, you're gonna keep beating your head against the trailer wall.

[yotaman88210]

The bike shakes like a hound dog trying to shit a peach pit going down the back straight.

Thats freaking hilarious!

[flounder]

The bike shakes like a hound dog trying to shit a peach pit going down the back straight.

.

Sounds exactly like my bike last year..

[Moto-Brian]

The bike shakes like a hound dog trying to shit a peach pit going down the back straight.

Hmmmmm.... Those are some fun times right there. Of course, once the peach pit comes out, you better have a good set of leathers on... Don't ask how I know.

[Moto-Brian]

Sounds exactly like my bike last year..

Your bike? Dude, try having a 750 at full gallop tank slap your ass out of the seat at the kink at Nelson ledges... Every lap. Every one.

We had two guys decide we were idiots to ride the bike we rode in the 8 hour night event up there. Come to find out, the rich ass sponsor and his crack team of techs didn't think the steering head nuts needed torqued. The top triple clamp nut was only finger tight!!

Ah yes, Scruggs and I were stupid for thinking it was going to be a good year with those douche bags...

[owndjoo]

chris, to be honest i'm still a suspension newb. the best thing i've learned is to go to the track with the proper sag, grab a screwdriver and hex t-handle, and have someone holding them in hot pit, go out and get warmed up/up to pace and come in, crank the rebound way in, go do a couple laps take mental notes, come in crank it way out, do a couple laps, take notes. repeat this with compression, and then set them to where they feel the best, repeat with the shock. it's the best way to get it close. i stood for hours watching the AMA practices and got to help out the Jordan guys when we shared a trackday, they pull springs, crank knobs different directions, get it close, then finely tweak it to perfection.

[flounder]

i stood for hours watching the AMA practices and got to help out the Jordan guys when we shared a trackday, they pull springs, crank knobs different directions, get it close, then finely tweak it to perfection.

HAHA I was standing there beside you for some of that this past year. Those fackers would switch out a spring on the shock in like 2 min.. INSANE.. I spent a few hours this past weekend installing my damn Penske. I cant wait for this year..