wow... redneck tries to kill biker..

[JStump]

Yes he tried to kill the guy with his truck. But that was way before they stopped. The legal system will see it as they were perpetuating the situation.

yeah, this is how my ccw instructor explained it, if you are in immediate danger of serious harm or losing your life you can shoot the person but if any time has gone by since the incident you can not so it has to be an instinctive reaction or else it is considered premeditated, also those guys could have run away to avoid the danger if they felt threatened. the only way that could have been justified as self defense is if the guy pulled out the tire iron and was within like 3 feet of them swinging it or if he pulled out a gun cuz you cant really run from a gun.

[cOoTeR]

I was agreeing with you, goof!

I know I was just trying to make Tyler understand.

[cOoTeR]

I thought that is what they were doing when they were all on cell phones.

Yes after 7minutes of escalating the situation.

[cOoTeR]

we actually had this happen to us last summer on a trip down to WV. my uncle (jschaf on here) passed a guy in a jeep grand cherokee who was driving rather slowly and the guy proceeded to try to catch him and drive down the center of the road stopping me and my other uncle from passing. i think the guy got up to at least 100mph on the straights trying to catch up to jschaf, who had been given about a minute to get ahead of the guy before he decided to start going all crazy. he was also taking the corners at dangerous speeds for that type of vehicle, not to mention he was fully in the oncoming lane while going around the blind curves. i decided to stay the hell back. i thought for sure we were going to get gunned down at the next traffic stop if the guy didn't cause some horrific accident on the way. crazy people everywhere i guess. was half expecting to see that same black grand cherokee in the video heh.

good choice on staying the yell back at a safe distance.

[buildit]

Wow, road rage in action. I don't think I'd have stopped and confronted the driver. Knowing I was faster I'd have just gotten someplace safe like that town they passed through and pulled into a place inaccessible to the truck.

[redkow97]

lots of misinformation being tossed around here.

Of course you can argue either side of a confrontation, but here's how I see it:

the rider made an illegal pass. This is a traffic violation, and not aggressive in any way toward the truck driver.

the truck driver reacted by attempting to run the rider off the road. That act makes the driver the "aggressor."

The bike fled, and the truck pursued. That still makes the truck driver the aggressor. Arguably, the rider tried to escape the situation and end it.

The truck driver proceeds to break the law about 35 times (each time tires touch a solid yellow, that's a lane violation. bike: 1, truck:30+).

Once they stop, you could TRY to argue that the riders "confronted" the driver by approaching his vehicle. You could also argue that they merely stopped trying to retreat, because stopping was safer than continuing to be chased at that pace on that road.

IF the riders became the aggressors when they approached the vehicle, the driver reclaimed aggressor status by brandishing the tire iron. That is absolutely a weapon. I do not know if it would be considered a "deadly" weapon though. Obviously it could be, but I honestly think that depends on if he strikes for the head or not. With helmets on, he could argue that it was never a deadly weapon.

At no time did I hear the riders curse at or threaten the driver, whereas the driver was obviously quite agitated. Being the calm one is usually not a sign of being the aggressor. I don't believe the riders responded with even equal force (or the threat thereof), let alone greater force. (responding with greater force makes you the new aggressor).

...but because no physical confrontation ever took place, this is all kind of moot. Being the aggressor versus on the defense only matters if you are trying to claim "self defense" as your reason for committing an otherwise criminal act. The riders didn't (that I saw).

So hell yeah, turn the tape into the police and take the traffic violation if they want to nail the guy. I would say he can easily be charged with a handful of aggrevated assault counts, and maybe attempted vehicular manslaughter. I'd have to consult the laws to see where the behavior fits.

[MidgetTodd]

I eat massive amounts of spaghetti

[cOoTeR]

lots of misinformation being tossed around here.

Of course you can argue either side of a confrontation, but here's how I see it:

the rider made an illegal pass. This is a traffic violation, and not aggressive in any way toward the truck driver.

the truck driver reacted by attempting to run the rider off the road. That act makes the driver the "aggressor."

The bike fled, and the truck pursued. That still makes the truck driver the aggressor. Arguably, the rider tried to escape the situation and end it.

The truck driver proceeds to break the law about 35 times (each time tires touch a solid yellow, that's a lane violation. bike: 1, truck:30+).

Once they stop, you could TRY to argue that the riders "confronted" the driver by approaching his vehicle. You could also argue that they merely stopped trying to retreat, because stopping was safer than continuing to be chased at that pace on that road.

IF the riders became the aggressors when they approached the vehicle, the driver reclaimed aggressor status by brandishing the tire iron. That is absolutely a weapon. I do not know if it would be considered a "deadly" weapon though. Obviously it could be, but I honestly think that depends on if he strikes for the head or not. With helmets on, he could argue that it was never a deadly weapon.

At no time did I hear the riders curse at or threaten the driver, whereas the driver was obviously quite agitated. Being the calm one is usually not a sign of being the aggressor. I don't believe the riders responded with even equal force (or the threat thereof), let alone greater force. (responding with greater force makes you the new aggressor).

...but because no physical confrontation ever took place, this is all kind of moot. Being the aggressor versus on the defense only matters if you are trying to claim "self defense" as your reason for committing an otherwise criminal act. The riders didn't (that I saw).

So hell yeah, turn the tape into the police and take the traffic violation if they want to nail the guy. I would say he can easily be charged with a handful of aggrevated assault counts, and maybe attempted vehicular manslaughter. I'd have to consult the laws to see where the behavior fits.

I agree the truck was on the wrong. My whole argument has been that the riders could not have used a firearm on this person at anytime other than when he swerved at them. Even being justified at that split second they would still be commiting several felonies at that time had they fired a firearm.

[MidgetTodd]

A good old fashioned beat down will usually provide more satisfaction than a well placed bullet.

[cOoTeR]

A good old fashioned beat down will usually provide more satisfaction than a well placed bullet.

Agreed.

[kawi kid]

It hurts me when the term redneck is thrown around.

[Disclaimer]

I think it was our Good Friday ride last year that UP passed a guy w/ his wife heading N on 83, I was #2 bike. UP must've agitated the guy because he pulled the same move as the truck driver in the video as I went to pass -- I wasn't pushed into the ditch as bad as the rider on the video, it was more of a quick swerve across the centerline and swerve back to 'get my attention' I wasn't pleased. The idiot might've pulled the same move on Tpoppa too...

I dunno if that was the incident UP was posting about or a different one, because I do recall having a chat with the highway patrol that day.

[redkow97]

I agree the truck was on the wrong. My whole argument has been that the riders could not have used a firearm on this person at anytime other than when he swerved at them. Even being justified at that split second they would still be commiting several felonies at that time had they fired a firearm.

I tend to agree. Once the danger has passed, and you are no longer directly in harm's way, use of deadly force is no longer self-defense, but retaliation.

I'm a firearms novice w/o a concealed carry permit, but I could have sworn the 'rule' is "don't pull your gun unless you need to use it."

In the moment, yes. When you're stopped, up 2-1, wearing a helmet, and the guy's got a tire iron? definitely not.

[cOoTeR]

Don't pull your gun unless your going to use it. That's how I see it.

I agree. Post #45.

[ReconRat]

We have a lot of freedom in this country, to behave whatever way we wish. But will always have to temper that with the consequences of a society that judges us.

since we're all guessing:

I would consider charging the rider with unsafe passing, if he could be identified. Perhaps even reckless driving.

I would consider charging the truck driver with two counts of attempted vehicular homicide, once for trying to force the passing vehicle off the road, and once for crossing the center at an oncoming vehicle. (bike at about 5:30.) Additionally one or two counts of aggravated menacing, for waving and pointing a crow bar at one or both riders. If he could be identified. I would also consider charges of road rage, if available.

If there had been any physical contact, I would consider arresting all parties for fighting in public.

A crowbar is a weapon, as is a baseball bat. Yes, both are tools, but it depends on how you use it, handle it, and display it. No, you don't want to be hit with either.

Edited May 25, 2011 by ReconRat

[SWing'R]

Does anyone know what the end result of this whole thing was?

Did the driver get arrested? Would have liked to see the video when the police showed up.

[natedogg624]

ongoing. from what i've read, the police never showed.

[cOoTeR]

We have a lot of freedom in this country, to behave whatever way we wish. But will always have to temper that with the consequences of a society that judges us.

since we're all guessing:

I would consider charging the rider with unsafe passing, if he could be identified. Perhaps even reckless driving.

I would consider charging the truck driver with two counts of attempted vehicular homicide, once for trying to force the passing vehicle off the road, and once for crossing the center at an oncoming vehicle. (bike at about 5:30.) Additionally one or two counts of aggravated menacing, for waving and pointing a crow bar at one or both riders. If he could be identified. I would also consider charges of road rage, if available.

If there had been any physical contact, I would consider arresting all parties for fighting in public.

A crowbar is a weapon, as is a baseball bat. Yes, both are tools, but it depends on how you use it, handle it, and display it. No, you don't want to be hit with either.

State v. Macias, Darke App. No. 1562, 2003-Ohio-1565 ¶ 37 --Although almost any hard object may be used as a bludgeon, there must be proof that an inoperable or fake gun was possessed, carried or used as a bludgeon.

There must be proof. The truck guy could argue he was going to tighten down his load using the tire iron as a crow bar. He could argue it was in his hands as he talked. I never saw him use it as a weapon, like swinging it at them. Until he attempts to use it as a weapon it isn't one.

[ReconRat]

State v. Macias, Darke App. No. 1562, 2003-Ohio-1565 ¶ 37 --Although almost any hard object may be used as a bludgeon, there must be proof that an inoperable or fake gun was possessed, carried or used as a bludgeon.

There must be proof. The truck guy could argue he was going to tighten down his load using the tire iron as a crow bar. He could argue it was in his hands as he talked. I never saw him use it as a weapon, like swinging it at them. Until he attempts to use it as a weapon it isn't one.

Not starting crap, but a court can see it differently:

Kentucky Revised Statute

508.050 Menacing.

(1) A person is guilty of menacing when he intentionally places another person in reasonable apprehension of imminent physical injury.

(2) Menacing is a Class B misdemeanor.

And actually, all parties were probably guilty of menacing.

[f4isvt]

i do not condone the actions of the pickup driver and as someone who rides a sportbike how pissed off can you be when you were the initial wrong doer and passing on a double yellow. Just saying.

[cOoTeR]

Not starting crap, but a court can see it differently:

Kentucky Revised Statute

508.050 Menacing.

(1) A person is guilty of menacing when he intentionally places another person in reasonable apprehension of imminent physical injury.

(2) Menacing is a Class B misdemeanor.

And actually, all parties were probably guilty of menacing.

I agree with the menacing. But I argued that the tire iron was not sufficiently used as a weapon in this video because someone brought up using ccw as an option. I disagreed.

[ReconRat]

I agree with the menacing. But I argued that the tire iron was not sufficiently used as a weapon in this video because someone brought up using ccw as an option. I disagreed.

I did notice that it appeared to me that everyone eventually backed up.

Can't hear what is being said, that can be important.

Young men get in situations and get themselves out. It happens.

Admonish riders to ride more reasonably. Too aggressive in what appears to be populated areas. Best to avoid that.

Admonish truck driver that he is not the law. He is a witness. Let it go, call it in.

[NinjaNick]

Does anyone know what the end result of this whole thing was?

Did the driver get arrested? Would have liked to see the video when the police showed up.

I posted the AFJ link at the beginning of this thread if you want the best details.

[Steve Butters]

Does anyone know what the end result of this whole thing was?

Did the driver get arrested? Would have liked to see the video when the police showed up.

it just happened a few days ago....after the cops were called, the truck driver left the scene...riders waited for the police to show and they never did....the sheriff told one of the guys on a different occasion that if he saw any of them passing him on a double yellow he would run them off the road himself, so im assuming they arent getting much help

someone one AFJ has a relative that is close with higher ups with the state police - so as i took it, they are currently still pursuing this but it happened too recent for anything to come of it yet

[attentiongetter92]

Back to the weapon thing. I heard somewhere(gun show, ordn, or jeep forum) that a knife is a tool up until the point the person handling it intends it for malice. I would think it would apply here to the tire iron