Scruit Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) Had to replace the lower ball joints on my Subaru yesterday. As I was removing the pinch bolt that holdes the balljoint in the knuckle the bolt snapped. It's about 1/2 deep in there and siezed bad enough that the 15mm bolt sheared right off. Had to buy new knuckles (both sides broke!). I'm worted now, but it raised a question in my mind...When something like this happens on a customer's vehicle (bolt breaks during removal, not due to negligence, and requires a more expensive part to be replaced... What happens? In my case - if you were doing the balljoints on my car where you work and the bolt on the knuckle snapped then do you call the customer to approve the extra cost of replacing the knuckle? Call to approve the labor trying to get the bolt out? Replace the knuckle yourself and call it the cost of doing business?BTW Anyone who thinks they can get this broken bolts out is welcome to offer ideas. Best I could think of was to drill the bolt out until there was onyl shards the bolt thread lef tin the hol and pick those out with tweezers. Done than many times. I also broke a bole on the caliper support so I tried that there - centerpunched and drilled right until I could see the threads - bolt threads still wouldn't come out. When I managed to get one shard of thread to stick out a little I grabbed it with needle-nose pliers but even that wouldn't let me pull the bolt threads out of the hole threads. It was nuts. When I saw how deep the broken bolt in the knuckle was I just threw my hands up and ordered two new knuckles ($120 a side) I'll take a pic tonight. Centerpunching it out counter-clockwise wouldn't work. Cutting a groove for a screwdriver wouldn't work. I don't do ez-outs becuase they ALWAYS break off and you can't drill them out. The problem is that it is the threads themselves that are sized, not pressure on the shoulders of the bolt head, so anythign I use to remove it has to be stronger thant he cross-section of the bolt itself. If it was level with the surface then I'd weld a nut to it but even then bolt could just as easily break again 1/2 deeper. Edited January 30, 2012 by Scruit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaymanthree Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 I would have drilled out the old bolt and re-tapped it.Heat is always your friend when it comes to stubborn hardware, especially if those control arms are aluminum.Sent from my LG-P509 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 heat is a great thing, I've also use drills with easy outs, or the patented "chisel method" which worked for me removing a sheared bolt that used to be holding an idler pulley in my old northstar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaymanthree Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Most shops that I have worked at I had to eat the (my) labor for repairing the damaged hardware.If your not flat rate the shop usually eats it.The knuckle probably would not have been replaced, just repaired.Sent from my LG-P509 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted January 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Most shops that I have worked at I had to eat the (my) labor for repairing the damaged hardware.If your not flat rate the shop usually eats it.Sent from my LG-P509 using TapatalkI've been looking around and found that this is a common occurrence and it's quicker and easier to replace the nuckle like I did. Other people claim to have fixed the knuckle by drilling and re-tapping but that it took many, many hours to do. I broke both sides. I may try that with the old knuckles and sell them on ebay or something - but this is my DD and I can't get work without it (unless it get above 20F in the morning and I can ride)Did I mention that as soon as the first pinch bolt snapped it started snowing? and it was below freezing? And I couldn't find my mecanhix gloves so I was working with numb hands. I love working on cars - unless I HAVE to. I could spend hundreds of hours rebuilding my truck and the time would fly - but 1 hour kneeling in the snow trying to unstake an axle nut and wrench the damn thing off... Makes me want a new hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 yes work done in the garage >x>y>z>1>2>3> work done in the snow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester3681 Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Having sold at and managed several repair centers, the front room answer would be - depends on the customer. If it's a regular customer, eat the cost, no problem. Someone we never worked with before - sir, parts were corroded, I'm sorry but we need to replace other parts too. Maybe sell the parts at cost with discounted labor? Depends on the situation. I can also say that a dealership likely knows that this is a possibility if it's that common and would caution the customer ahead of time. A good dealer would sell the job with the knuckles and just back them out if not needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted January 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) yes work done in the garage >x>y>z>1>2>3> work done in the snowIrony is that I have a 3-bay climate controlled workshop at my house with air tools, drill press, grinder, welder and the whole works... But those three bays are taken up by: 1) truck body on jack stands 2) Truck chassis on stands and 3) Motorbike/lawn tractor/snow blower/kid's electric car etc. So I was working with two trolley jacks out front of the workshop.Even more fun was when I got done for the night I looked at the hood - the snow had melted - then refroze into ice.I could throw the wheels back on the truck chassis and roll out out of there to make room for the Subaru - but the subaru is now on jacks right in front of that bay so I'd have to reassemble the subaru to move it.Now my 30 minute free job is a 5 hour job over 3 days costing $300. FML. Edited January 30, 2012 by Scruit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vf1000ride Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 I have three different types of easy outs. The standard tapered, spiral cut easy out. I have a set of tapered straight flute easy outs. And the last set is a set of straight walled 5 flute tools that you drill an undersized hole and then hammer into place and remove with a ratchet. It may not help much at this point but here is something else I have done in the past. If you can drill the bolt so it is down to just the threads. Run a tap down the hole for the original thread size. If you can get it started in clean threads it will cut any corrosion and whats left of the bolt out. You just have to go very slow so you don't break a tap off in there, they are just as bad as an easyout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jporter12 Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Drill and tap it. If necessary, drill to a larger size and use a thread insert.MOST of the time, it's on the customer, or the shop may discount it. Where is it my fault as a tech that it's corroded? I try as hard as I can to avoid breaking bolts, because that's not really fun work, but if it happens, I didn't build it (or design), I didn't buy it, and I didn't break it (the problem that it was coming apart for) but I can fix it! Honestly, if a shop doesn't want to pay a guy for work, something that's not really his fault, I wouldn't stay there very long! If it's my fault that the bolt broke, then I take the hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Drill and tap it. If necessary, drill to a larger size and use a thread insert.MOST of the time, it's on the customer, or the shop may discount it. Where is it my fault as a tech that it's corroded? I try as hard as I can to avoid breaking bolts, because that's not really fun work, but if it happens, I didn't build it (or design), I didn't buy it, and I didn't break it (the problem that it was coming apart for) but I can fix it! Honestly, if a shop doesn't want to pay a guy for work, something that's not really his fault, I wouldn't stay there very long! If it's my fault that the bolt broke, then I take the hit.My sentiments exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idodishez Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 ........- if you were doing the balljoints on my car where you work and the bolt on the knuckle snapped then 1. do you call the customer to approve the extra cost of replacing the knuckle? 2. Call to approve the labor trying to get the bolt out? 3. Replace the knuckle yourself and call it the cost of doing business? .Haven't read all the responses yet, but #2 first, then #1. Not a chance on #3 unless in some way it's due to an error on my or my techs part. And yes, I would have actually fessed up to it. NoBama 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gixxus Christ! Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Spray with kano kroil before taking apart and not snap the bolt in the first place. I keep a set of hss left-handed twist drills around. You use a center drill first, then a lefty. Half the time the drill bites and backs the bolt out, the other half you drill through and remove what's left of the bolt with tap, pick, shoulder-fired rocket.....whatever you have handy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 So I tried to remove the bolt last night. Here's what I tried:- Center-drilled the bolt. Started with a new 1/8" bit and after 1/4" it felt like I hit hardened metal - just stopped cutting. Different drill speeds didn't help. Finally the top of the drill bit broke off and was 1/8" under the surface. That end was toast.- Tried to center-drill the other side of the bolt. Another brand new 1/8" bit. Same thing - about 3/8" into the holt it felt like I hit hardened metal. Same outcome (snapped bit). - One end of the bolt was sticking out 1/4" so I cut a groove into it with a die grinder and tried to turn with a big screwdriver. Rounded the tip of the srewdriver and the groove.- The other end was flush with the surface, so I welded a washer to it, then welded a nut to the washer. Put a wrench on it - wouldn't budge until i used a big enough wrench that the weld broke, leaving some welded material on the bolt. Tried this 3 times, each time the weld broke. (I now have 3 nuts welded to washers now. Dunno what good that does me but it's something)- Tried grinding away the material on the end that I cut the groove in - thinking I could grind enough away to remove the broken drill bit tip and then try center drilling again. That means taking some of the knuckle material away as well. When I tried to drill it was like hardened metal again.- Swore a lot then gave up.I've unsed all of these techniques successfully in the past. Just last week I had to drill out a broken bolt from my truck's rear diff. That came out fine once it was just threads left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Spray with kano kroil before taking apart and not snap the bolt in the first place. I keep a set of hss left-handed twist drills around. You use a center drill first, then a lefty. Half the time the drill bites and backs the bolt out, the other half you drill through and remove what's left of the bolt with tap, pick, shoulder-fired rocket.....whatever you have handy.I let it soak in PB for an hour before trying to remove the bolts. I have never had success with an EZ-out (either flutes or spiral) all have broken off and left me with hardened metal jammed in so I couldn't drill out. My favorite method is center drill then a thread-chaser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gixxus Christ! Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Kroil is vastly superior to pb. Don't get me wrong, I used pb for years and its a good product, but kroil kicks the shit out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadTrainDriver Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Kroil, plus heat, plus the use of an impact (more gentle on the bolt)= the exact same bolt easily removed on my 1998 Subaru Impreza.Anti-Seeze the shit out of everything you put back together!!I know a fabulous Subaru mechanic if you ever need help or advice in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhaag Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Kroil is vastly superior to pb. Don't get me wrong, I used pb for years and its a good product, but kroil kicks the shit out of it.where would one find this...Kroil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblosser Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 where would one find this...Kroil?Manufacturer's site (click)Google shopping results (click) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gixxus Christ! Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Google? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhaag Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 wow. so subtle. i found it online, just wondered if there was a local store i didnt see on my search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblosser Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Brownell's, Midway, Amazon.In Central Ohio, I'd recommend a "real" hardware store, i.e. Beechwold, Worthington, Zettler downtown, or Roush in Westerville. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhaag Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Brownell's, Midway, Amazon.In Central Ohio, I'd recommend a "real" hardware store, i.e. Beechwold, Worthington, Zettler downtown, or Roush in Westerville.thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gixxus Christ! Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I just take it home from work. The shit does everything. Makes a great gun cleaner, removed rust, etc. also I lubed all the squeaky hinges in my house with it over two years ago and they are still silent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhaag Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I just take it home from work. The shit does everything. Makes a great gun cleaner, removed rust, etc. also I lubed all the squeaky hinges in my house with it over two years ago and they are still silent.imma get some. i work near roush in dublin. i've been a die hard PB user and i'm getting older, so i might be too set in my ways.....we'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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