Exarch Posted April 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 A few things to understand.-If you lowside, you most likely did one of two things. You either trailed or used the front brakes or you rolled off the throttle or chopped the throttle.-If you highside, you had too much throttle and the rear broke loose. Breaking loose and then grabbing traction from chopped throttle or traction and you get spit off...My thoughts are two fold as I am not being mean, but you sound as if you may not be sure what you exactly did. Thus, you really need to get to an MSF course and honestly, a Novice track day to learn your bike and what it does.I think you lowsided due to chopping the throttle or braking while leaned over. I doubt the rear stepped out and then you hit the brakes. People "think" they spin the rear or lose the rear and it isn't happening at all. They do not understand what that feeling is. To me, you mentioned you added gas while in the turn and then you used the brakes or rolled out.You didn't lose the rear and then just slide...Here's a couple of things to keep in mind in motorcycle riding...-Throttle is applying load to the rear. Loading the rear on drive out is what we do. It steers the bike. A pretty advanced idea to understand and I would tell you to avoid trying to understand it at this stage and just learn basics. The basic here is that the rear is loaded when accelerating. You are loading the back of the bike under acceleration. Think when you take off... Your head goes back, the bike unloads the front and even sometimes, you will wheelie, etc. That's loading the rear. In a turn, that loading the rear is fine at certain points. You can do it right and drive out or, do it wrong and pitch to the highside.-Throttle off or chopping the throttle and using the front brakes loads the front. The deal here is that if into a turn and even slightly leaned over and you brake, you are loading the front and the footprint on that front tire is small to begin with. You throw the weight of the bike into that equation and you risk a lowside. Same with chopping the throttle.People do these things everyday and all the time. Even hard core racers flirt with these rules as they trail brake as deep as they can and push the envelope for traction. Both front and rear... Thus, epic highsides and fast lowsides...Basically, I think you violated the loading the front rules. The biggest thing is to understand what you did wrong. No video so, we all are guessing. But, the more you learn, the better you become. This is why I promote track days at the Novice level. You get coaching and education and you will learn so much more in a place that is designed for it. Vs. the road...An MSF course isn't really going to teach you all of this in detail like a track day will. BUT, taking the MSF course is something you should do to learn basics. The basics are needed before anything...how much do track days run for novice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 how much do track days run for novice?With a classroom organization? Anywhere between $130 and $200 for a day. You get around 7 sessions and about 20 minutes each session...WAY cheap when you figure out what you will learn and what experience you will receive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exarch Posted April 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 Dude, no offense, but how do you slide in a crash at 10mph? You had to have jabbed the brakes in a panic. This is another sign to get to an MSF course and at least consider a track day after...You can actually corner at a lean at 10mph???It was in a sharp down hill double apex(serpent hill?) Over on 325,I dunno if ur supposed to, but you can lol. Bikes only 300lb im 180, pretty easy to lean the bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buildit Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 Actually thats the slowest I took any corner all day. 10mph is fast?I'm going to go with KTM-Brian here. Don't be "that guy". The one who ends up seriously hurt or hurts someone else and has to post up this summer how he really needs some help selling the bike because bills are piling up fast from doctors and lawyers. Take the MSF or if you've been riding for a while now take the Return rider MSF class. Lots of folks here can get you good information on Mid Ohio and probably other places that can save you a lot of hassle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue03636 Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 Good old Keith Code survival reaction.I hear there are some good peeps at these trackday things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 It was in a sharp down hill double apex(serpent hill?) Over on 325,I dunno if ur supposed to, but you can lol. Bikes only 300lb im 180, pretty easy to lean the bike.Trust me, I understand the ease of leaning a bike. But, if you crashed and slide at 10mph and not sure how it occurred, you need to get a course like the MSF for sure.Just as a side note, guys that weigh way less than you can lean a bike that weighs 800 lbs. It's how you understand the basics that allows you to ride a bike and ride it well. Don't take that as a jab at you or anything. But, you crashing a bike at 10 mph while changing the throttle input and braking is a sign to me that you are a first time rider and not confident. Those things can equal serious injury or death in certain scenarios. I'd put the bike away until you can get some instruction. Then, take the class and try it all again. The last thing I want to see is someone getting killed from doing something wrong... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exarch Posted April 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 With a classroom organization? Anywhere between $130 and $200 for a day. You get around 7 sessions and about 20 minutes each session...WAY cheap when you figure out what you will learn and what experience you will receive.I might look into that one of these Saturdays down the road, whatever I can do to better myself I eventually want to do. That quick double apex caught me off guard on the hill(first one ever for me on a bike) ive took em with a slight straight away b4 but this was 2connecting curves. If I didnt work 2 fulltime jobs itd be easier to knock some of the safety classes out, but for the msf I would lose 32hours of work if I had to call off for 2days. after I wrecked I noticed quite a few bikes riding the clutch in that same turn, which is what im gunna do next week(if I get my bike.fixed in time) when I attempt it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exarch Posted April 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 I'm going to go with KTM-Brian here. Don't be "that guy". The one who ends up seriously hurt or hurts someone else and has to post up this summer how he really needs some help selling the bike because bills are piling up fast from doctors and lawyers. Take the MSF or if you've been riding for a while now take the Return rider MSF class. Lots of folks here can get you good information on Mid Ohio and probably other places that can save you a lot of hassle. Ive had a couple people from here offer to take the msf(again) with me, im just trying to figure out how to get.the.course knocked out without calling off 2jobs in a single day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 I might look into that one of these Saturdays down the road, whatever I can do to better myself I eventually want to do. That quick double apex caught me off guard on the hill(first one ever for me on a bike) ive took em with a slight straight away b4 but this was 2connecting curves. If I didnt work 2 fulltime jobs itd be easier to knock some of the safety classes out, but for the msf I would lose 32hours of work if I had to call off for 2days. after I wrecked I noticed quite a few bikes riding the clutch in that same turn, which is what im gunna do next week(if I get my bike.fixed in time) when I attempt it again.Riding the clutch??? Dude, you really need some class stuff pronto.The 2 days excuse is fine. You'll have a LOT more days off when you are laying in a bed with your sustained injuries from poor information and lack of ability. Not trying to be a hard ass, but you are showing that you have close to zero experience and from the sounds of it, very little knowledge on how a bike even operates. Thus, it is only a matter of time that you will get hurt and be out for at least 2 days recovering.Take the days off. Everyone gets vacation days. It's the law. You do too and can make the MSF stuff...If you are going to "try" things after "watching" others and have such little grasp as to how these things work, you are destined to get in trouble... The problem is that with motorcycles, the capacity of getting seriously hurt is so great that the likelihood is very high... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 Oh, and if the bars bent and you straightened them out, they are compromised and should be replaced. Now, if they turned on the fork tube and simply turned inward and did not bend, they are fine.The OEM bars are a cast material and when they bend, they tend to get small fractures. Small fractures can lead to failure. Although I myself have even ridden a bike with bent bars, it is something you should replace if that is the case... Good excuse to get clip-ons... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exarch Posted April 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 Trust me, I understand the ease of leaning a bike. But, if you crashed and slide at 10mph and not sure how it occurred, you need to get a course like the MSF for sure.Just as a side note, guys that weigh way less than you can lean a bike that weighs 800 lbs. It's how you understand the basics that allows you to ride a bike and ride it well. Don't take that as a jab at you or anything. But, you crashing a bike at 10 mph while changing the throttle input and braking is a sign to me that you are a first time rider and not confident. Those things can equal serious injury or death in certain scenarios. I'd put the bike away until you can get some instruction. Then, take the class and try it all again. The last thing I want to see is someone getting killed from doing something wrong...Ya I am fairly new, I only put 400 miles on my bike (360 b4 I wrecked it) and only about 200 or so around town on other peoples bikes. I dont plan on putting the bike away though, im gunna just try and not make the same mistake again.In my car it took me about 2-3 times of taping my breaks in the snow b4 I learned my lesson. Took 1 time turning right at 90mph b4 I learned my lesson and 1 time taking a tight left in 3rd gear at 25mph(can make the same 25mph turn in 2nd though) I know the car is alot different than a bike, but if I cant take the courses right now I think.the next best option is just practice. Luckily ive never wrecked my car though, except when some guy hit me on the highway. But I do realize a slight mistake on a car and your prob not gunna get hurt( especially when no cars are around) and on a bike a little mistake can get real bad real.quick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exarch Posted April 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 Oh, and if the bars bent and you straightened them out, they are compromised and should be replaced. Now, if they turned on the fork tube and simply turned inward and did not bend, they are fine.The OEM bars are a cast material and when they bend, they tend to get small fractures. Small fractures can lead to failure. Although I myself have even ridden a bike with bent bars, it is something you should replace if that is the case... Good excuse to get clip-ons...Ill try to get some pics, I didnt take any yesterday but ill have my dad take some for me today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcat6183 Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 Yeah bud, like KTM said, no one is trying to be mean or anything here, but from reading what you wrote, you definitely need to take some course, read some books, then think about a novice track day. If I were in your shoes and laid a bike out with less than 400 miles on it, I would be more concerned about practicing the basics, then looking for turns with "double apex's" and things of that nature. Honestly, even those of us that ride tracks exclusively see that many double apex's etc. Sure we do, but we also ride them a lot, and have more than 400 miles in experience. Also losing the front at 10mph, and sliding?? Definitely get some practice in a parking lot before heading out to the street, then I would recommend more straigh streets and turns that flow, nothing complicated. Stick to the basics, and go from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exarch Posted April 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 Yeah bud, like KTM said, no one is trying to be mean or anything here, but from reading what you wrote, you definitely need to take some course, read some books, then think about a novice track day. If I were in your shoes and laid a bike out with less than 400 miles on it, I would be more concerned about practicing the basics, then looking for turns with "double apex's" and things of that nature. Honestly, even those of us that ride tracks exclusively see that many double apex's etc. Sure we do, but we also ride them a lot, and have more than 400 miles in experience. Also losing the front at 10mph, and sliding?? Definitely get some practice in a parking lot before heading out to the street, then I would recommend more straigh streets and turns that flow, nothing complicated. Stick to the basics, and go from there.I know I need to practice more, I dont speed on my bike or take turns over the speed limits for that reason. Im fairly comfortable riding around town and whatnot and not worried bout what traffic thinks of how I ride (50mph in a 55 due to feeling a lil shaky in winds on the straights)Its not reaply that I didnt know what to do, its more that I dont understand the reason to do what you do(as kmt mentioned) and then basic instinct kicked in over what I learned to do in these situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sporttour Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 Get qualified training now. It is much easier to learn how to ride if you don't have to break bad habits first. Take the Motorcycle Ohio BRC. It will be time and $25 well spent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcat6183 Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 I know I need to practice more, I dont speed on my bike or take turns over the speed limits for that reason. Im fairly comfortable riding around town and whatnot and not worried bout what traffic thinks of how I ride (50mph in a 55 due to feeling a lil shaky in winds on the straights)Its not reaply that I didnt know what to do, its more that I dont understand the reason to do what you do(as kmt mentioned) and then basic instinct kicked in over what I learned to do in these situations.You nailed it there, a lot of the earlier posts pertain to that statement exactly, you have to make the basic instinct to do what is correct, not what you think is. I've been there too, eveyone has. Difference is mine was a controlled track area, yours was on the street in street gear etc. Definitely practice and get the study time now, it will only help and make you safer, for yourself and others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschoolsdime92 Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 That's a tough area for someone who's not logged many miles. I kinda wish the guys you were riding with would have looked out alittle better and not taken you there yet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuikAccord Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 ^^^My bad, and that is why I have felt so bad about it when it happened. However I did warn him about the curves and their nature just before we came to them. I also explained about looking through the curve and focus on where he wanted to go and not the guard rail. I didn't realize just how low his conference and level of experience is/was. I still feel bad for entire situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exarch Posted April 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 You nailed it there, a lot of the earlier posts pertain to that statement exactly, you have to make the basic instinct to do what is correct, not what you think is. I've been there too, eveyone has. Difference is mine was a controlled track area, yours was on the street in street gear etc. Definitely practice and get the study time now, it will only help and make you safer, for yourself and others.im gunna do.some parking lot practice with one of.the guys from.this.forum once I get.a.chance to. And yup.I need to study some.more, but I can only really practice those.situations.once I get.in.a.situation like.that again. And sometimes its hard to do the.right.thing even if you know.what.ur supposed to do on a split second decision event. Im pretty good about defensive.driving.and avoiding accidents in the.cage, now only if.i.can get to that point on my bike ill be good. Although I do learn better from DOING opposed to watching/reading/listining about what to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue03636 Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 If you want some stuff to watch, grab keith code twist of the wrist I & II. They are really corny but there is a lot of good info. This along with some personal help will do wonders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exarch Posted April 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 ^^^My bad, and that is why I have felt so bad about it when it happened. However I did warn him about the curves and their nature just before we came to them. I also explained about looking through the curve and focus on where he wanted to go and not the guard rail. I didn't realize just how low his conference and level of experience is/was. I still feel bad for entire situation. ^^^My bad, and that is why I have felt so bad about it when it happened. However I did warn him about the curves and their nature just before we came to them. I also explained about looking through the curve and focus on where he wanted to go and not the guard rail. I didn't realize just how low his conference and level of experience is/was. I still feel bad for entire situation.Ya I told him you warned me about.thay b4 we left and about a.mile b4 we reached.that twist. If I was nerves about it I would of said something to you. Although I just didnt realize you couldnt see around the cornor.so.kind of caught me by surprise when I came up on it lol. I was expecting.kind.of.a small straight or wider turn between.the.apexes. He did tell me it was sharp though and that didnt bother me. I guess a little over confidence could of effected my judgment on going through that twist. Oh well, shit happens, its no ones fault but my own. Ane honestly the only thing about our ride I wasnt 100% confident about was the wind, but I drove slower to make up for that and he did a good job of not losing me and looking back constantly to make sure I was still visible. Hell he even pulled off to the si de a few times till I caught up and when cars got between us. If he would of left me behind I still wouldnt of gone faster.than what I was comfortable with. Now if it wasnt so windy outside I prob would of done a better job.of.keeping up with him in the straights, but he never once made me feel the need to rush or ride above my comfort level Although if I didnt tell him about my riding skill b4 hand I prob would of felt bad about him riding slower than he.is used to, but he.seemed..cool with it and he ended up being cool with it. Although I did feel bad about him getting stuck on that hill making a u turn trying to get to me, I thought for sure his.bike was gunna tip over and all I could do was stand at the bottom of the hill and try to stop traffic(which luckily there wasnt a single car comming) Now idk what I would of done if I wrecked and he didnt come back for me, I had no cell reception and no knowledge of how to get my bike started after it cut off and no clue where I was even at, but luckily he knew enough to get the bike started again and helped me get the bars straightened out so that it was ridable again. And im glad I was on a light 250 that I could pick up by myself otherwise I would have caused others to wreck if the hike stayed in the road. Ive tried picking up a heavy bike b4 by myself and that didnt go very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exarch Posted April 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 If you want some stuff to watch, grab keith code twist of the wrist I & II. They are really corny but there is a lot of good info. This along with some personal help will do wonders.ya ive seen those vids right after I bought my bike. I also watched the captin crash vids. One of the guys from here has the vids and were gunna watch em again sometime soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 (edited) Good old Keith Code survival reaction.I hear there are some good peeps at these trackday things.I know a lot of us pimp trackdays pretty hard around here, but they really are a VERY useful teaching tool for virtually any rider who is comfortable shifting through the gears, and obtaining highway speeds.The advantages of a trackday are multiple:- controlled environment- immediate feedback from instructor(s)- the ability to practice the same corner a hundred times, so you can actually work on getting it right, rather than simply surviving it once. (i.e. YOU are the variable, rather than the turn you're trying to negotiate)There is no requirement to go obscenely fast. If your goal is just to become a safer street rider, then let that be known to the coaches, and I am certain they will be happy to talk with you after the classroom sessions and give you any additional "street notes" that are relevant.hell, if you ask Todd, he'd probably have an instructor write up a loose street curriculum. lines, braking, and body position are pretty universal, but I'm sure there are some "street considerations" that could easily be addressed.The most important thing is that you're not okay, and that whether you know exactly what happened or not, you gain the knowledge to avoid repeating it.(edit - i realize I quoted Craig, but I'm not speaking directly to him, but rather expounding upon the point he made) Edited April 16, 2012 by redkow97 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinjaNick Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 I already can tell where you wrecked. Ft. Ancient between the hills on St. Rte. 350.I grew up in Clinton county in the country and I know them and Warren county roads really well. I can see them all in my head if I sit here and think and see every turn. I even have experience on some in middle of the might with no lights on like a moron when I was a punk teenager in early 90's. That is where me and my buds will ride when we want familiar roads and to "wick" it up, if you know what I mean.Anyway, definitely get the MSF course under your belt and take the NOVICE mid-ohio track day sometime during the week. The experience you gain is well worth the money. I left my track day with so much experience when I did it in 2006 that after 9 years of riding I still wouldn't have developed the skills they have taught me. KTM-BRIAN said it right.Here is pictures from my track day in '06:Got to meet the editor of Sportrider magazine..Greg White as well...I think this girl was 12 and she was doing some CRAZY quick lap times..My track toy '03 636... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinjaNick Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 Sorry, was reminiscing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.