Bill of sale only purchases, advice?

[bandit]

:confused:Sorry guys, this may not really be the best place to pose this question; I just thought that guys who do lots of track days would have a lot more experience buying no title motorcycles. I am considering buying a cheap track bike to get my feet wet with and have never been down this "no title" road. I am not afraid of it, but I would appreciate any advice on how to protect myself from a scammer. Do people scam these deals? I have to assume there are potential downsides. Please, weigh in for me. Thanks in advance.

[redkow97]

Just ensure the bike isn't stolen, and verify that the person is who they say they are. The latter is all a notary does. If you want to have a bill of sale notarized, there's no harm in that either.

[jester3681]

I would do a little research into why this bike has no title. I'd want a pretty solid story before I bought it. Also call local LEO to verify it is not stolen.

[redkow97]

I would do a little research into why this bike has no title. I'd want a pretty solid story before I bought it. Also call local LEO to verify it is not stolen.

Will law enforcement just do that for you?

Any vehicle should come back to the last registered owner. Technically, whoever that is could still report the vehicle stolen at any time.

They would need the VIN to do so though, so if the title was legitimately lost or destroyed, there shouldn't be any worry about that.

[ama146]

I bought my first track bike with no title. In fact it didn't even have a VIN but that was because it had a factory blank frame (much cheaper than a titled frame). I had no issues with it, but looking back I would not risk it again. I'll probably buy titled bikes only now.

[TSB67]

I would never buy something with no documentation whatsoever. If it was never titled I want the MCO. If the title was lost get another. If the title was never transferred because "it's just a track bike" I want the last copy.

The worst part of having something with no title is trying to sell it. If you buy it then you're the next sucker.

[gixxie750]

There are sooooo many reasons a bike could not have a title. If you feel like the seller is legit and not hiding any info from you then I see no problem. If the bike has a vin # run it. If it does not well then there is no way to prove where its from so once again up to you. If you plan on just tracking it then I would not worry very much. The ONLY problem with no title or vin is that you can never really prove the bike is yours so it may be hard to get it back from the popo without proof. I hae owned many no titled bikes and was never really concerned because I had no reason to street them. In the end its up to you!

[imprez55]

There are sooooo many reasons a bike could not have a title. If you feel like the seller is legit and not hiding any info from you then I see no problem. If the bike has a vin # run it. If it does not well then there is no way to prove where its from so once again up to you. If you plan on just tracking it then I would not worry very much. The ONLY problem with no title or vin is that you can never really prove the bike is yours so it may be hard to get it back from the popo without proof. I hae owned many no titled bikes and was never really concerned because I had no reason to street them. In the end its up to you!

I agree 100% with this. I recommend getting a bill of sale, signed by both parties and a witness (ideally a notary but just another person is good for me) and running the VIN to ensure its not stolen. If the VIN comes back clean (with no lien), I don't understand how someone could have a problem with buying it or assuming its a "risk". People still buy and sell older dirt vehicles that never had titles since its really only an issue of registration for street use. If you are afraid of not having enough proof that it is yours to recover it from the police, fear not, you probably won't see it ever again if it gets stolen anyway.

[madcat6183]

Actually member on here(previous) had this happen and the cops showed up at the track and repo'd his bike. FACT.

[gixxie750]

Actually member on here(previous) had this happen and the cops showed up at the track and repo'd his bike. FACT.

did the vin come up as stolen? Did the member never even look it up?

[shadyone]

What about titling a bike with only a bill of sale.

[jester3681]

What about titling a bike with only a bill of sale.

Not in Ohio. And not many places if it's newer.

[Helmutt]

What about titling a bike with only a bill of sale.

Not in Ohio. And not many places if it's newer.

Well this sucks, AJ bought my old 96'r and we cooked up a bill of sale to get it setup since it predates required titling laws in Ohio, and he was told he needed a bos. So there's nothing that can be done in Ohio to title a bike thats NEVER been titled?

[madcat6183]

Not sure if he did or not, of course the guy told him it was legal and all that jazz, but yeah, dude straight had the police show up and repo it. My guess would be the previous owner that sold it to him called the cops too, sweet.

No the seller was not someone on any forum that I know of, just someone he found or something. I dunno the details big time, but I do know this happened. Would I buy a BOS bike, sure, but as stated I'd make sure all the vins were not scratched off, and would have them checked. Or if it was a blank stamp, I believe they still run motor vins? Get that and check it.

[Moto-Brian]

Guys, race bikes and track day bikes are getting to be more and more "Bill of Sale Only"... It is simply an issue where the owners have lost titles as most often times, it is just a piece of paper that never gets used. My last several bikes have had MCOs which are titles basically. I just never registered them (which is usually what most people want) because I was never going to street them.

The facts are simple. Run the VIN#, get a DETAILED Bill of Sale and even have a Notary as mentioned if you are all that worried. Take and meet the guy at a local motorcycle dealer, have a Bill of Sale ready, ask the dealership if you can even pay a small fee to use the notary and have it done and part ways.

Guy can call the cops all day long after the transaction, but will have zero leg to stand on when it gets to court or to the officers when they see the Bill of Sale.

I have always done a Bill of Sale and can provide you with a template. Basically, you want to note the Seller's name, Buyer's name and VIN# with description of the bike. At the bottom, have a line for printed name, signature and date. For both Buyer and Seller and add a Witness also if needed or the feeling of being needed.

Just do some research. It's easy to do and the bike will then have paperwork and if a racebike, pretty standard issue stuff and will not detract from the value of the bike when selling it again.

You can also apply for a Mechanic's Lean if you desire and do not have a Bill of Sale. In Ohio, the Bill of Sale should be enough if notorized to get the bike inspected and get a title. But there is the rub... If it needs inspected, you need to full street the thing. That can cost some money to get the needed parts.

Reason I say that should be enough, it is CRAZY easy to get a street title for an off road machine. I've seen guys with two stroke woods bikes running on the street with full tags and lights, etc. EASY in Ohio...

[jester3681]

You can also apply for a Mechanic's Lean if you desire and do not have a Bill of Sale. In Ohio, the Bill of Sale should be enough if notorized to get the bike inspected and get a title. But there is the rub... If it needs inspected, you need to full street the thing. That can cost some money to get the needed parts.

It may be different on a bike NEVER titled (dirt bike, etc), but the topic of "mechanic's liens" and I also believe getting a title via bill of sale have been beaten to death in other threads. Not easy at all for an individual. Almost have to be a business with some equity in the bike (repair shop, dealership, tow company).

[redkow97]

Actually member on here(previous) had this happen and the cops showed up at the track and repo'd his bike. FACT.

who, and when?

I have heard similar stories on multiple occassions, but it's always third-hand knowledge, and no one has ever actually witnessed it.

I don't believe this happens with any frequency whatsoever. Hell, I went across the US/Canada border with my bike, and it's not registered in my name. I told them as much, because they were asking if we intended to sell the bikes. "no sir. I can't sell it. It's not titled in my name." They just asked what I was doing with someone else's motorcycle, and I told them that because it's only used on the track, there is no reason for me to title it or register it. There's nothing illegal about being in possession of someone else's property when you have the owner's permission. (we were using a borrowed trailer at that point too. They just asked if we had the owner's permission) I suppose they could have called the number on record for the last registered owner, but given that it's a dealership that has been out of business for 5+ years, I don't think that would have gotten them anywhere...

If it's not stolen, and you're reasonably sure it won't be reported stolen in the future (a bill of sale from the previous owner would prove that they voluntarily surrendered it to you), then no worries.

[madcat6183]

Lives in AZ now, Tomatoracing, not trying to drag his name through mud as he had NO idea, but yep. I don't know the exact story but cops came, took bike, he had no idea. I got it 2nd hand, and like I said, NOT HIS FAULT, and NOT dragging his name through mud. He and I are cool, and I hope to make a trip to AZ to run with him sometime, possibly this season.

[redkow97]

I got it 2nd hand

So we still don't know anyone who actually witnessed this happening?

Has Tomato ever posted about it here? I remember the username, but I don't think I ever met him.

[standout]

i know first hand. Jon is a little off. The bike was titled and even switched into "tomatos" name. He owned it for 1-2 years. He put it on craigslist to sell and the original owner recognized it, acted like he wanted to buy it, matched the MOTOR vin to his title and called the cops and they swarmed his house. The person "tomato" bought it from ended up being part of a ring of people stealing bikes (unknown to tomato at the time) and had switched the frame. Tomato's bike was titled In his name and was still taken from him. The original owner got an insurance check, bought a new bike with it, and got the original bike back from tomato.

If that shows u anything realize title or not u can still get fucked.

[madcat6183]

i know first hand. Jon is a little off. The bike was titled and even switched into "tomatos" name. He owned it for 1-2 years. He put it on craigslist to sell and the original owner recognized it, acted like he wanted to buy it, matched the MOTOR vin to his title and called the cops and they swarmed his house. The person "tomato" bought it from ended up being part of a ring of people stealing bikes (unknown to tomato at the time) and had switched the frame. Tomato's bike was titled In his name and was still taken from him. The original owner got an insurance check, bought a new bike with it, and got the original bike back from tomato.

If that shows u anything realize title or not u can still get fucked.

Thanks Alan, I only knew like 1/10 the story so I appreciate it.

[redkow97]

so there is still no first-hand story where anyone has had a bill-of-sale bike confiscated simply for not being titled in their name.

That was a repo of a stolen engine.

[standout]

no problem. His was an extraordinary circumstance but taught me a valuable lesson and figured i would help clear it up. Just so there is no confusion I know "tomato" personally and have been great friends for a long time and he got severely screwed and had no idea what was going on. He bought the bike with a clear legit title and was able to legaly get it switched into his name and the bike was still a stolen bike.

Moral of the story bill of sale, mso, title u can still be screwed. When your getting into track bikes your dealing with possible frame switches, motor changes, suspensions from different bikes. You never know. The only thing u can do is be dilligent but u never truely know.

[Disclaimer]

I still can't understand how someone misplaces a title or documentation (MSO,etc.) that proves legal ownership of a semi-expensive piece of machinery, and then doesn't bother to rectify the situation.

If all my paperwork were lost, stolen, burned tomorrow... getting all of it replaced would be pretty high on my list of things to do.

It reeks of laziness on the (original) possessor of the goods if they can't be bothered to reclaim pretty important legal documentation -- especially since a clean title bike is usually hundreds if not in the thousands of dollars more valuable than a bike without (Granted, you have to do a cost vs. benefit calculation, but more often than not I'm guessing it'd still be more beneficial than costly to get that documentation). And if they're that lazy with their paperwork, then I'm curious as to what else they're lazy about... like bike maintenance.

[redkow97]

If all my paperwork were lost, stolen, burned tomorrow... getting all of it replaced would be pretty high on my list of things to do.

I generally agree. I was comfortable buying my bike because the original owner is still on the WERA board and gave me the full story about its history, and why the title was never transferred. Plus I have the physical certificate of title - just not in my name.