Bill of sale only purchases, advice?

[Scruit]

I would never buy a bike unless the title is clear and available to be transferred to my name as part of the sale. Too much risk.

I was about to buy an old Festiva for $250 that was going to be a test bed for a new semi-automatic clutch I was trying to develop and the guy said; "The title is in my ex-wife's name and we don't talk much..." Bye!!

[Moto-Brian]

You guys saying it is a risk or saying you don't understand the loss of a title, etc. We are NOT talking street bikes here. You are responding without any knowledge of the inner circle of racing and an understanding of how things work.

Yes, title or not, you can get screwed on ANY purchase whether a bike, car, airplane, watch, video game. Those are rare and if doing ANY investigating and getting things done properly, wouldn't be an issue. However, sometimes, no matter what you do, it isn't enough and you still can lose out. Live in a bubble, don't eat peanut butter and filter the air you breath.

For the rest actually interested in a track bike without a title - getting to be more and more common - here's the drill... I take all my MCOs and titles and place into a lock box that is fire proof. I then grab said title or MCO and present with the Bill of Sale. The MCO isn't really any different than a Bill of Sale as I could have stolen it from the dealership and got into the office and stolen the related MCO that goes with that bike. If you are buying, run the VIN#, ask for the motor # and find out what is the status of the items. Easy.

THEN, draw up a Bill of Sale on YOUR end and email back and forth or use a phone and get all the needed info. Buyer/Seller names, #s from the bike, phone and email contacts, addresses, etc. It's pretty much selling 101.

If you are at all worried, do the notary deal. That's even better.

The bottom line is this. Track day guys and racers do not NEED a title or an MCO. They have the intentions to save them and store them in a good place for later use. However, shit happens. People are busy (not always lazy - you work 50 plus hours, travel 3-4 days a week, raise two kids and have a wife that works - shit gets misplaced all the time and if you think I am lazy, come ride with me for a month and see what I deal with) and forget, lose, misplace things all the time. At the time of the sale, they do not have the needed title or MCO and do a Bill of Sale.

Now, Sruit's example is pure stupid. It was a title in a different person's name. Yes, not a good idea. Second, if the guy offered no title and Bill of Sale only and he did a VIN# search, he would have seen a different owner than who he was buying it from. Red flag.

It's VERY simple folks. Just check shit out.

OP, if you have any other questions and wanna ask, shoot me a PM. We can let the other kids tell everyone how dangerous and scary buying anything with a Bill of Sale is and how they wouldn't advise or do it. I'll get you with about a dozen or so folks that have and several bikes that have changed hands and you can see if it is as scary and dangerous as some make it out to be.

[Moto-Brian]

I still can't understand how someone misplaces a title or documentation (MSO,etc.) that proves legal ownership of a semi-expensive piece of machinery, and then doesn't bother to rectify the situation.

If all my paperwork were lost, stolen, burned tomorrow... getting all of it replaced would be pretty high on my list of things to do.

It reeks of laziness on the (original) possessor of the goods if they can't be bothered to reclaim pretty important legal documentation -- especially since a clean title bike is usually hundreds if not in the thousands of dollars more valuable than a bike without (Granted, you have to do a cost vs. benefit calculation, but more often than not I'm guessing it'd still be more beneficial than costly to get that documentation). And if they're that lazy with their paperwork, then I'm curious as to what else they're lazy about... like bike maintenance.

First of all, take any 2011 bike and one is salvage and no title. The owner built it up and has been measured, been fixed of any issue it had and has top shelf components. Take the same bike and with a title and has the same thing. Not worth "thousands of dollars more". Not a chance. A few hundred maybe, but if the seller is respectable and has all their info and receipts, etc, how is it he is lazy because he doesn't have a title?

Then, to say they are terrible at maintaining their bikes because they lost a piece of paper? I agree it is important and like I said, I try and keep mine safe and at the ready, but understand that it isn't at all something I would think relative. I can tell if you suck at maintaining your bike as soon as I ask you to pull the fairings off. Typically, most guys suck at keeping the bike in tip top shape and a removal of the fairings shows this. It's more than oil changes and tires and chains...

We've gone as far as to check the fluid in a fork to see if it has been in fact refreshed. Usually, it is as they say with receipts, but if they "claim it" without receipt, I pull a cap and take some fluid out and see how clean it is. Gray? Nope.

[Disclaimer]

Understand I use 'you' in the general sense in most of the verbiage here... unless it explicitly applies to a particular post.

You guys saying it is a risk or saying you don't understand the loss of a title, etc. We are NOT talking street bikes here. You are responding without any knowledge of the inner circle of racing and an understanding of how things work.

I don't think I should have to qualify everything said, but the point I tried to make was -- if it originally HAD a title, then it still does, and if the possessor of the original title lost or damaged it or whatever, it's laziness at worst and misplaced priorities at best.

I don't believe you need to be in the 'inner circle' to understand this stuff. I grew up in a racing family (read: cars), and some of those vehicles don't have titles or are built from scratch with tube chassis. But there are cars that DO have titles, and they also get transferred when cars are sold. I've seen where the new owner won't necessarily ever register the new title in his name, but has the physical paperwork to give to the 3rd or 4th or 5th owner from the original titleholder who can register it if they so choose.

Yes, title or not, you can get screwed on ANY purchase whether a bike, car, airplane, watch, video game. Those are rare and if doing ANY investigating and getting things done properly, wouldn't be an issue. However, sometimes, no matter what you do, it isn't enough and you still can lose out. Live in a bubble, don't eat peanut butter and filter the air you breath.

Truth. I don't believe there's been any disagreement there.

The bottom line is this. Track day guys and racers do not NEED a title or an MCO. They have the intentions to save them and store them in a good place for later use. However, shit happens. People are busy (not always lazy - you work 50 plus hours, travel 3-4 days a week, raise two kids and have a wife that works - shit gets misplaced all the time and if you think I am lazy, come ride with me for a month and see what I deal with) and forget, lose, misplace things all the time. At the time of the sale, they do not have the needed title or MCO and do a Bill of Sale.

People are busy is not a good excuse. I've worked 40hr week, 50hr weeks, I had a 92hr week once... If you get sued in small claims court, a judge isn't gonna go "Well, he was busy so you can't sue him". Like I said, at worst it's laziness, at best it's a priority issue. If you can't take one day off, or skip one trackday to get your paperwork in order then... that's on you. You don't want to call it laziness, thats fine... And no one is telling you what you should do with your time, but I would take that into consideration when making a purchase. Especially since I like to have options - and one of those options is: well, if I don't want to have a trackbike anymore and can't find someone to buy it as a no-title trackbike, then I might have better luck selling it with a title for the street. Having a 'no title' bike is just passing the buck to the next guy to see who ends up the stuckee when they need to liquidate it.

We can let the other kids tell everyone how dangerous and scary buying anything with a Bill of Sale is and how they wouldn't advise or do it. I'll get you with about a dozen or so folks that have and several bikes that have changed hands and you can see if it is as scary and dangerous as some make it out to be.

And that's fine too. It's a numbers game. Statistically, you'll probably be OK. I don't have the REAL numbers, but if there's a 5% chance you'll get pinched by the law on a no title bike, and a 1% you get pinched on a clean title scheme/scam or something, then that's a judgement call you need to make as a buyer.

Edited October 30, 2012 by JRMMiii

[gixxie750]

I still think check it all out as much as possible. titles are for STREET use and to identify the owner of the bike. If you guys want a clean and clear titled bike as a dedicated track bike you deff have $$$$ to burn! Get the bike with the best parts and one that is most set up and just make sure its not stolen and ride that thing!!!

[Scruit]

The bike has a title. It is just in someone else's name. The legal owner of titled property is the person on the title.

[J_Copeland]

The bike has a title. It is just in someone else's name. The legal owner of titled property is the person on the title.

So,your saying the my Trackbike that I bought last Oct. is still legally owned by the guy I bought it from in Wyoming since I didn't title it in my name?

Honestly,I just didn't feel the need to pay the Great State of Ohio taxes on my Track Only bike !!!

[Scruit]

So,your saying the my Trackbike that I bought last Oct. is still legally owned by the guy I bought it from in Wyoming since I didn't title it in my name?

Honestly,I just didn't feel the need to pay the Great State of Ohio taxes on my Track Only bike !!!

That's fine. Enjoy riding HIS bike.

[Moto-Brian]

Understand I use 'you' in the general sense in most of the verbiage here... unless it explicitly applies to a particular post.

I don't think I should have to qualify everything said, but the point I tried to make was -- if it originally HAD a title, then it still does, and if the possessor of the original title lost or damaged it or whatever, it's laziness at worst and misplaced priorities at best.

I don't believe you need to be in the 'inner circle' to understand this stuff. I grew up in a racing family (read: cars), and some of those vehicles don't have titles or are built from scratch with tube chassis. But there are cars that DO have titles, and they also get transferred when cars are sold. I've seen where the new owner won't necessarily ever register the new title in his name, but has the physical paperwork to give to the 3rd or 4th or 5th owner from the original titleholder who can register it if they so choose.

Truth. I don't believe there's been any disagreement there.

People are busy is not a good excuse. I've worked 40hr week, 50hr weeks, I had a 92hr week once... If you get sued in small claims court, a judge isn't gonna go "Well, he was busy so you can't sue him". Like I said, at worst it's laziness, at best it's a priority issue. If you can't take one day off, or skip one trackday to get your paperwork in order then... that's on you. You don't want to call it laziness, thats fine... And no one is telling you what you should do with your time, but I would take that into consideration when making a purchase. Especially since I like to have options - and one of those options is: well, if I don't want to have a trackbike anymore and can't find someone to buy it as a no-title trackbike, then I might have better luck selling it with a title for the street. Having a 'no title' bike is just passing the buck to the next guy to see who ends up the stuckee when they need to liquidate it.

And that's fine too. It's a numbers game. Statistically, you'll probably be OK. I don't have the REAL numbers, but if there's a 5% chance you'll get pinched by the law on a no title bike, and a 1% you get pinched on a clean title scheme/scam or something, then that's a judgement call you need to make as a buyer.

So, you shouldn't buy a Bill of Sale only track day bike. But, I doubt you and Scruit probably have any interest in buying one anyways. So, probably not even a topic you two should chime in on as we are talking as Gixxie stated - track use only bikes that do not need titles.

Point is simple. It is a very unimportant item in the grand scheme of things. You own a track or race bike and you'd understand this. Yes, it is something several of us maintain and keep, but I can tell you this - I almost couldn't find the MCO to my last 2009 GSXR I sold and was going to do a Bill of Sale only. I wasn't about to go through the process to get an MCO as it is pretty tough to get done. I also wasn't going to try and get a title via a Mechanic's Lean through a shop buddy, either.

I guess I am too fucking lazy... Racers. That's their MO anyways...

[Scruit]

Don't tell me I shouldn't chime in because I don't race... I don't care if the TRACK wants to see a title or not - the law of the state says of you buy titled property and you don't get it titled in your name then it is not yours. You just paid for a bike and that bike still belongs to someone else.

Racing regulations don't trump the law.

If you are willing to take the risk that the legal owner can come back and claim it at any time then go for it.

[gixxie750]

where is the whole possession is 9/10ths the law thing lol. If the owner wants it back I bet that could get a little weird,but thats why bill of sales can come in handy. I understand this may not be for everyone or even in the eyes of the law,but you will have that with "toys".

[Moto-Brian]

The bike has a title. It is just in someone else's name. The legal owner of titled property is the person on the title.

It does. But, it also has a Bill of Sale that shows that legal owner approving the sale of said bike with listed VIN# and Motor # and his legal name and signature being sold to the stated Buyer with legal name and signature.

I really doubt he could take that to court and have any platform by which to stand on. It would be no different than a guy selling a flat screen TV to someone and then he decides to call the cops saying it was stolen. Cops show up, see the BOS... What do you think will happen at that point?

I know it isn't a TV, but there are several items of that price and worth that do not have a "title" and are sold daily with BOS or similar... Add a notary and you've got a pretty much iron clad ownership of sold bike going on...

[Disclaimer]

So, you shouldn't buy a Bill of Sale only track day bike. But, I doubt you and Scruit probably have any interest in buying one anyways. So, probably not even a topic you two should chime in on as we are talking as Gixxie stated - track use only bikes that do not need titles.

Please tell me more about what I'm in the market for... and what I'm qualified to comment on in a public forum...

No where did I ever say it NEEDS a title. Just like a bike doesn't NEED Ohlins and slicks either, it'll go around a track just fine on standard forks and street rubber. What's your point? Ohh wait, you're getting to it...

Point is simple. It is a very unimportant item in the grand scheme of things.

Says you, to each their own... but I don't understand it because...

You own a track or race bike and you'd understand this.

said Brian condescendingly, since I've never, in my life, owned any wheeled vehicle without a title.

Yes, it is something several of us maintain and keep, but I can tell you this - I almost couldn't find the MCO to my last 2009 GSXR I sold and was going to do a Bill of Sale only. I wasn't about to go through the process to get an MCO as it is pretty tough to get done. I also wasn't going to try and get a title via a Mechanic's Lean through a shop buddy, either.

And that's your prerogative. I never slammed you for it, other than losing your own paperwork, which I still don't understand. It's not like it's something I leave on the counter next to the pots and pans, but whatever -- I know mine go in one place, so I assume if you had access to one of my titles, you've found them all, and it's not someplace I get into and root through on a daily basis. but like I said, whatever.. it happens, people lose stuff. I just don't understand why you'd just shrug your shoulders over that particular document, but that's my opinion.

I guess I am too fucking lazy... Racers. That's their MO anyways...

I don't understand why that's offensive? You are lazy if you don't rectify your documentation regardless of it being REQUIRED for use as a trackbike, since it's a lot easier for you to go through the process than the second owner. There are a lot of things in life that aren't necessary or required, but some people do them because it's the right thing, or they have personal pride, or they think they'll have 23 years of bad luck, or they'll go to hell if they don't -- like returning a shopping cart to the cart corral after you get done shopping, which is a pet peeve of mine.

You act like I think you're a horrible person for being lazy. We all do things that are lazy cop outs, I just don't understand why it's so hard for you to just own up to it in this case instead of making excuses about work hours and family and stuff.

Edited October 30, 2012 by JRMMiii
Misc grammar and spelling, as usual.

[Moto-Brian]

Don't tell me I shouldn't chime in because I don't race... I don't care if the TRACK wants to see a title or not - the law of the state says of you buy titled property and you don't get it titled in your name then it is not yours. You just paid for a bike and that bike still belongs to someone else.

Racing regulations don't trump the law.

If you are willing to take the risk that the legal owner can come back and claim it at any time then go for it.

But, you don't know the law and are saying shit out of the side of your mouth. I've sold, bought, know pretty well what goes on in selling motorcycles. It's my profession. I can say that you shouldn't chime in because all you are doing is talking about something you don't really know about.

I am saying that your opinion is fine and your comments are cool and all, but you have nothing to add other than opinion vs fact. You don't know what the process is, you cannot relate and like JRMii, you are talking about something and saying it is laziness or simply lack of approach by the owner to not sort the title deal out. What I am saying in regards to feeling you shouldn't really be here giving out reasons for or against is that you've never been around this environment and so, really cannot understand that it is not an issue of laziness or related when not getting a title.

What are your thoughts on an MCO? It is "technically" the dealership's unit as it was never registered to an end user. That's as worthless as a BOS in what you are saying. Know how many teams sell bikes with just MCOs from an OEM?

Same deal.

[Moto-Brian]

Please tell me more about what I'm in the market for... and what I'm qualified to comment on in a public forum...

No where did I ever say it NEEDS a title. Just like a bike doesn't NEED Ohlins and slicks either, it'll go around a track just find on standard forks and street rubber. What's your point? Ohh wait, you're getting to it...

Says you, to each their own... but I don't understand it because...

said Brian condescendingly, since I've never, in my life, owned any wheeled vehicle without a title.

And that's your prerogative. I never slammed you for it, other than losing your own paperwork, which I still don't understand. It's not like it's something I leave on the counter next to the pots and pans, but whatever -- I know mine go in one place, so I assume if you had access to one of my titles, you've found them all, and it's not someplace I get into and root through on a daily basis. but like I said, whatever.. it happens, people lose stuff. I just don't understand why you'd just shrug your shoulders over that particular document, but that's my opinion.

I don't understand why that's offensive? You are lazy if you don't rectify your documentation regardless of it being REQUIRED for use as a trackbike, since it's a lot easier for you to go through the process than the second owner. There are a lot of things in life that aren't necessary or required, but some people do them because it's the right thing, or they have personal pride, or they think they'll have 23 years of bad luck, or they'll go to hell if they don't -- like returning a shopping cart to the cart corral after you get done shopping, which is a pet peeve of mine.

You act like I think you're a horrible person for being lazy. We all do things that are lazy cop outs, I just don't understand why it's so hard for you to just own up to it in this case instead of making excuses about work hours and family and stuff.

You make a blanket statement. You also stated that if they are lazy with the title issue, they are probably lazy on things like maintaining the bike. You are at a stage where you are making assumptions and using a word that is not accurate.

Laziness is offensive and it does make it sound like your perception is that if they boggle the title, they are sitting around smoking weed and eating Cheetos and too lazy to get it taken care of. Not the case at all. Maybe in some cases it is.

I couldn't find my title due to moving things around and a file was misplaced. That's being lazy? Seriously???

I used the comment about not knowing because you guys don't buy race or track day bikes or around that environment enough to know it is more common than you think. It's common in our industry of racing and it is handled well and things are fine. Otherwise, there would be huge crack downs on VIN# checking and the like.

[Disclaimer]

No, see you read what you wanted to read. My posted stated I was curious as to the other things they were lazy about, not "they're probably lazy". That's not a blanket statement, and it provides for benefit of the doubt the way I originally stated it.

Not, how you read it. Words do have meaning, and I do tend to choose mine more carefully (or like to think I do, since I do put an effort into it).

And trust me, I know how common it is. Just because I post on this forum, doesn't mean I'm not reading all the other ones out there or that I don't have personal experience with it. I'm not arguing about what is and is not required for trackbikes to get on the track, legally. I'm just saying that somewhere, along the line of ownership transfers, titles get lost, stolen, or whatever and instead of getting a new title through the appropriate processes like the owner at the time should have before they sold it -- they either consciously made the decision to not pursue getting a title reissued (because it didn't make a good business case) or just got lazy and needed some fast money at the time. I have a feeling that it's usually the latter.

Edited October 30, 2012 by JRMMiii

[J_Copeland]

Don't tell me I shouldn't chime in because I don't race... I don't care if the TRACK wants to see a title or not - the law of the state says of you buy titled property and you don't get it titled in your name then it is not yours. You just paid for a bike and that bike still belongs to someone else.

Racing regulations don't trump the law.

If you are willing to take the risk that the legal owner can come back and claim it at any time then go for it.

So,what if I have a title that's is signed over to me and notarized?

Is it still legally his !

I say no based on the fact that once a title is signed over its the buyers responsibility to get it transferred !

[madcat6183]

I have a BOS and the title STILL in the last owners name. He signed off on it, but I have yet to get the title transfered as Brian said, I've gotten too busy this year to do it. Sounds lame, but 100% true, and thats with my enclosed sitting at my house, along with my truck. Simply didn't have time to get it to the DMV/BMV to get the out of state inspection done. I did once take the title in when I had to get tags for something, but didn't have the bike with me.

All the VINs lined up, and the BOS was templated like Brian said, so Im not worried BUT I still want to get it done.

[Disclaimer]

Legally, yes. It's still his bike.

But, since you have physical possession of the title document, it's going to be hard for him to claim it's his, unless he accuses you of stealing the title, the bike, and forging his signature complicit with a false notary.

As it's been discussed... you can sell that bike to someone else and just hand them the signed title from the guy who sold you the bike, which they may never register either, and the cycle continues until someone along the line decides they want to register it and (if it's been dated from the original seller) has to pay the tax and meager penalty for not registering it within 30 days (I think it's 30 in Ohio, ymmv) of the original sale.

Until that point, you can just keep passing the signed title to the next person down the line. And of course, every ownership transfer down the line from the original seller makes it harder and harder for him to find the title and bike if he were to cry foul on the transaction. Regardless, someone still has the title and it can be registered at any time without issue, since they hold the asset and the title to it.

[Moto-Brian]

No, see you read what you wanted to read. My posted stated I was curious as to the other things they were lazy about, not "they're probably lazy". That's not a blanket statement, and it provides for benefit of the doubt the way I originally stated it.

Not, how you read it. Words do have meaning, and I do tend to choose mine more carefully (or like to think I do, since I do put an effort into it).

And trust me, I know how common it is. Just because I post on this forum, doesn't mean I'm not reading all the other ones out there or that I don't have personal experience with it. I'm not arguing about what is and is not required for trackbikes to get on the track, legally. I'm just saying that somewhere, along the line of ownership transfers, titles get lost, stolen, or whatever and instead of getting a new title through the appropriate processes like the owner at the time should have before they sold it -- they either consciously made the decision to not pursue getting a title reissued (because it didn't make a good business case) or just got lazy and needed some fast money at the time. I have a feeling that it's usually the latter.

That's why forums suck. Things get misunderstood easily.

Anyways, people aren't always lazy as you assume by your feeling. In fact - again - the fact is that it takes a good bit of time to get a title for something once lost. And, if you have an MCO which several higher level racers only have presents an even greater hurdle.

In the end, it isn't lazy, it is a matter of if it even makes sense. If it is widely acceptable (which it is), why take those steps when it isn't needed?

Bottom line is that we all derailed this topic as usual. The final thing to the OP is that it is fine. Follow the ideas presented in the thread. Do things with the suspicion is it isn't legit and when you do your research and take the proper steps and find out it is, you've protected your investment and above all, yourself.

[Moto-Brian]

Legally, yes. It's still his bike.

But, since you have physical possession of the title document, it's going to be hard for him to claim it's his, unless he accuses you of stealing the title, the bike, and forging his signature complicit with a false notary.

As it's been discussed... you can sell that bike to someone else and just hand them the signed title from the guy who sold you the bike, which they may never register either, and the cycle continues until someone along the line decides they want to register it and (if it's been dated from the original seller) has to pay the tax and meager penalty for not registering it within 30 days (I think it's 30 in Ohio, ymmv) of the original sale.

Until that point, you can just keep passing the signed title to the next person down the line. And of course, every ownership transfer down the line from the original seller makes it harder and harder for him to find the title and bike if he were to cry foul on the transaction. Regardless, someone still has the title and it can be registered at any time without issue, since they hold the asset and the title to it.

I think legally, it is not his even with a title. If he finds it but has signed a Bill of Sale, it is no longer legally his. You have signature and even if you step up to a notary.

Basically, you have an agreement in writing as well as a verbal. It's pretty much a lock... But, I am not a lawyer so, I am sure there is a loop hole...

[Disclaimer]

the fact is that it takes a good bit of time to get a title for something once lost.

$15 and proper ID (in Ohio)

http://www.dmv.org/oh-ohio/replacing-a-lost-title.php

So unless that's wrong, I hold my opinion that it's lazy to not just replace the title prior to sale. Since it's a lot easier for the original owner than for someone down the line, but hey, the the buyer doesn't care -- that's fine and nothing technically illegal or a requirement, but I know it's a resale value hit and that may or may not put that bike off the market for me based on my liquidity options in the future.

And, if you have an MCO which several higher level racers only have presents an even greater hurdle.

MCOs I have no experience with, so I have no idea what the process is there, but I'm sure there is a process if you really wanted to get it reissued. And, if the process is so tedius, why wouldn't you protect that document better? I guess that's my point.

Also, how many trackbikes have MCO compared to being previously titled? I'm skeptical there are more MCO bikes than titled bikes.

Do things with the suspicion is it isn't legit and when you do your research and take the proper steps and find out it is, you've protected your investment and above all, yourself.

This is life advice... not just bike advice.

[Moto-Brian]

$15 and proper ID (in Ohio)

http://www.dmv.org/oh-ohio/replacing-a-lost-title.php

So unless that's wrong, I hold my opinion that it's lazy to not just replace the title prior to sale. Since it's a lot easier for the original owner than for someone down the line, but hey, the the buyer doesn't care -- that's fine and nothing technically illegal or a requirement, but I know it's a resale value hit and that may or may not put that bike off the market for me based on my liquidity options in the future.

MCOs I have no experience with, so I have no idea what the process is there, but I'm sure there is a process if you really wanted to get it reissued. And, if the process is so tedius, why wouldn't you protect that document better? I guess that's my point.

Also, how many trackbikes have MCO compared to being previously titled? I'm skeptical there are more MCO bikes than titled bikes.

This is life advice... not just bike advice.

Honestly, for me, it would mean a drive to the title office, and time. IF I lost a title, I would just try and promote a BoS. If the buyer was wanting a title 100% and I felt it was a possible lost sale, I would go through the hoops... But, if not a needed thing and not really important, why do it?

Not a lot of MCO track bikes, but realize that a lot of teams and higher level racers have bikes with MCOs. My last three had them as I sold them and the owners were fine with it. Again, never going to be a street bike, but if it ever does end up there, they'd have a warranty!

[Moto-Brian]

Oh, MCO is what a dealer receives from the manufacturer. Say Ducati... Ducati sends Motohio an MCO. It is the origin of the bike and where it came from. Manufacturer Certificate of Origin...

Now, they keep these in a file and are not transferred into anyone's name until registered. If they fill out the Post Delivery Inspection and warranty register the bike, that bike is then registered into the customer's name and a title produced in that person's name or the bank that has the lien.

Then, when it is sold after the buy, the title is in the original owner's name and then you go from there when the owner sells it.

Basically, the MCO is the start of the process and is actually is pretty worthless until the unit is registered. Many bikes are out there with that as most racers are not going to register and pay the taxes as again, it never sees the street. It is just like buying a dirt bike out of state. You don't pay the taxes until it is registered and unless riding on a state trail, no need so, it never gets registered properly...

[jester3681]

So,what if I have a title that's is signed over to me and notarized?

Is it still legally his !

I say no based on the fact that once a title is signed over its the buyers responsibility to get it transferred !

In this case, if the seller has signed the title and it is notarized, and you have filled your information out as the buyer, the vehicle is yours, legally. In the event that the seller would go print another title at the BMV, your title would still be valid, however, I always recommend going right the the BMV and getting the title in your name to prevent this from happening - you would have to argue pretty hard about the legality of the titles and prove which was valid in a court of law. But once the title is assigned to you, ownership transfers. Honestly, you could leave it like this indefinitely and it wouldn't be an issue until you went to sell it, since Ohio only allows one assignment per title.

NEXT: If you are a valid owner of a vehicle titled in your name and you lose the title, you are either lazy or cheap if you don't get another one. It takes no more than a trip to the title office and less than $20 to get another one. If you're selling a titled vehicle, get a title for it.

LASTLY: If you are not going to license a vehicle in Ohio (put plates on it and take it on a public thoroughfare), I don't give a fuck if your write something out on a cocktail napkin. As long as the seller (or another previous owner) doesn't come looking for it, you're legally the owner of the vehicle. Ohio is a chain-of-title state, so the only concrete ownership they acknowledge is a title. Beyond a title, it gets grey. Bill of sale is a legal term, not a BMV term. As long as everyone in the transaction trusts one another, badabing - there you go.

Ohio is one of the strictest (if not the strictest) states in the Union when it comes to ownership and titles, and there's very little grey area. At the end of the day, when it comes to the purchase of a used vehicle to be licensed, the only way that it can be done in 99.999(go about a hundred more 9s)% of the time is from a clean title of ownership to you.

I know there are a lot of people on this forum that "know" titles and buy and sell a lot of cars/bikes/etc, but I can guarantee that unless you work at the BMV or have been doing this for decades, there is no one here who's name has been on more titles than mine, as a buyer, seller, company representative or notary. Sorry to sound like a dick, but this seems to be the third or fourth thread that has similar pissing matches in it. I hope this post clears things up.

CLIFFS NOTES VERSION- If you want it on the street, get a title. If you want to race it or for dirt, no one gives a shit, just don't buy it stolen. Just don't expect you or any other subsequent owner to have it on the street.