Bill of sale only purchases, advice?

[TSB67]

Basically, the MCO is the start of the process and is actually is pretty worthless until the unit is registered.

MCO is good as gold to me. No transfer/tax BS and proof that the bike was never titled if for some reason you need to go get one.

[Disclaimer]

In this case, if the seller has signed the title and it is notarized, and you have filled your information out as the buyer, the vehicle is yours, legally. In the event that the seller would go print another title at the BMV, your title would still be valid, however, I always recommend going right the the BMV and getting the title in your name to prevent this from happening - you would have to argue pretty hard about the legality of the titles and prove which was valid in a court of law. But once the title is assigned to you, ownership transfers. Honestly, you could leave it like this indefinitely and it wouldn't be an issue until you went to sell it, since Ohio only allows one assignment per title.

That's a pretty big AND up there. If the seller fills out his portion and the buyer never fills out his portion (which often happens if the buyer never plans to register it, and wants to leave his info blank to save him the hassle of getting new title when he goes to sell it), then who is the legal owner? (Legally, I say the original seller)

MCO is good as gold to me. No transfer/tax BS and proof that the bike was never titled if for some reason you need to go get one.

Which is kinda, sorta equivalent to a "title" for me, and important to keep that documentation when a MCO bike would transfer owners. I just know that I don't have the kind of connections to ever worry about getting an MCO firsthand (which is why I been lazy on the initiative to learn about them), only from a future second owner-type purchase.

Edited October 30, 2012 by JRMMiii

[jester3681]

That's a pretty big AND up there. If the seller fills out his portion and the buyer never fills out his portion (which often happens if the buyer never plans to register it, and wants to leave his info blank to save him the hassle of getting new title when he goes to sell it), then who is the legal owner?

Well, if you want to get technical, the seller is, but he is in violation of the law. If he signs the title and has it notarized without the buyer information filled out, at least partially, it is an "open title," which is a big ol' nono. The back of the Ohio title should only be filled out when the title is being transferred.

EDIT: Just read the last section of this post - if the buyer never fills out his section "to save the hassle when selling it" that's called "jumping titles" and is a pound-me-in-the-ass prison sort of offense in Ohio. Just FYI to anyone out there who may know a guy somewhere that may consider doing it.

[jester3681]

All he has to do is go the the title office and pay for a duplicate. Then' date=' he has a legal title, and so do you.

The bike is still his. It's also yours, but it's still in his name with the government. He can get another with minimal effort and make your day a real mother fucker.[/quote']

Yeah but if you get a duplicate title, it's notated in the system. If it ever became an argument of ownership, that's where the legal battle would begin. You have the item and a valid title on a certain date. He has a title dated later. He'd have to come up with a pretty convincing argument that you, he, and the notary all had a brain fart on the original title but he let you keep the vehicle anyways...

[Disclaimer]

Well, if you want to get technical, the seller is, but he is in violation of the law. If he signs the title and has it notarized without the buyer information filled out, at least partially, it is an "open title," which is a big ol' nono. The back of the Ohio title should only be filled out when the title is being transferred.

That happens a lot though, which was my point, and why the seller is still the legal owner. I've been aware of titles that have been "open" for decades.

Now, I don't have a title in front of me, but the only thing the seller is attesting to is the price, odometer reading, and date of sale. , right? Therefore, if the buyer never fills out his portion and leaves the title open for years,the buyer takes the risk of someone stealing the title and putting THEIR info on it and claiming the asset, but if the open title just sits, for years, it can be passed on to the next buyer, and the next buyer, and so forth. The official record of the numbers of owners would be screwed up, but if years down the line an owner wanted it titled, he'd fill out the buyer info and register it (plus taxes and a penalty fee for filing beyond 30 days) -- title is still good.

[Moto-Brian]

Basically, you can get fucked even if you have a title. A TON of people try and get everything but the purchase price noted on the title. They fill in something stupid like a $1k for a $10k bike, etc. Avoids the tax issues, etc. So, in theory, a BoS is important as it states the selling price and something to fall back on.

Technically speaking, if the BoS states $10k and has both seller and buyer info and signatures, the State could use that to get more money.

I understand the title issue. The thing that starts to blur this topic is we start talking street vs track. Again, the BoS is going to be useful and I am sure that just like a dealership would do, if you tried to say it was stolen and had signatures and info, how the hell would that happen? I highly doubt that a seller would try anything stupid if you did a full disclosure BoS and had a witness or even a Notary stamp the thing.

I'd run that sucker in deep in a court if the seller tried that BS. The example that Madcat provided was obviously done on a trust deal and no BoS. Otherwise, there would be a case that it was properly sold in a manner that was legit and legal.

[jester3681]

That happens a lot though, which was my point, and why the seller is still the legal owner. I've been aware of titles that have been "open" for decades.

Now, I don't have a title in front of me, but the only thing the seller is attesting to is the price, odometer reading, and date of sale. , right? Therefore, if the buyer never fills out his portion and leaves the title open for years,the buyer takes the risk of someone stealing the title and putting THEIR info on it and claiming the asset, but if the open title just sits, for years, it can be passed on to the next buyer, and the next buyer, and so forth. The official record of the numbers of owners would be screwed up, but if years down the line an owner wanted it titled, he'd fill out the buyer info and register it (plus taxes and a penalty fee for filing beyond 30 days) -- title is still good.

Well, sort of. What a notary is actually notarizing is the seller's signature on the assignment portion of the title. What the seller is signing is that all of the assignment portion is correct to his knowledge. In the case of the Ohio title, this information includes buyer's name and address, sale price, seller's name and address and date of transfer. If a notary is truly savvy and doing his job, he would not sign a title in which any of that information is blank.

Now, I'm not naive enough to think that doesn't happen all the time, heck, as a notary, I notarized tens of thousands of titles and rarely if ever was this section completely filled out. As a notary in a business, you make the assumption that other parties in the business will fill out that area and this is typically legit.

That being said, try to have the BMV notarize your signature on an open title and see what happens. Nothing. They won't touch it unless the entire top half is filled out. That's because if the assignment section is not complete, there is nothing for the seller to attest to as factual, which is ultimately what the notary is challenging him to do. It's sort of like making out a contract for a loan with your bank, but they leave the interest rate, payment schedule and total loan amount blank, then want you to sign it.

[jester3681]

I'd run that sucker in deep in a court if the seller tried that BS. The example that Madcat provided was obviously done on a trust deal and no BoS. Otherwise, there would be a case that it was properly sold in a manner that was legit and legal.

The example Madcat gave, if I understand it correctly, was as follows:

1) Thieves stole a bike, owner reported it stolen.

2) Thieves swapped frame or maybe just VIN tag with that of a legal bike.

3) Unsuspecting Former OR Member (U-FORM) buys bike with a legal title and a legal VIN.

4) At some point down the road, original owner sees U-FORM selling bike which looks familiar, confirms it is stolen via other identifiable serial (engine number).

5) Bike is impounded as stolen (which it is, see #1), U-FORM is kinda screwed.

Yes this happens regardless of whether the vehicle has a title or not. And in this instance, it did happen with a title. I absolutely agree, whether you're buying a titled bike from Larry down the street or a bike for track use from Habib's Discount "Not Stolen" Bike Lot off Parsons, the single most important thing to do is verify all the serial numbers and verify that those do not coincide with a stolen bike. And at the end of the day, it might still be stolen and you might still be fucked. Such is life, friend.

I will say that every time I buy and sell a used car private party, in addition to the title, I also fill out a basic bill of sale with all of our info, the date and TIME of the transaction and the amount of the sale. I include things like an as-is clause and a clause stating there are no liens or other encumbrances on the vehicle. I had someone buy a car from my wife and I, wrecked it the next day. Their insurance company tried to pass it off on our insurance. I sent them a fax of the BoS... never heard another peep.

[Disclaimer]

Lemme just put this here: http://www.franklincountyohio.gov/clerk/docs/at/Dealer_Manual.pdf

[imprez55]

Lemme just put this here: http://www.franklincountyohio.gov/clerk/docs/at/Dealer_Manual.pdf

So what that says (on p17) is that, although rare, I can get an original title through having a Bill of Sale only. I assume that is not what you meant, so instead of just posting a 100 page document maybe you could lend a helping hand to the page that resolves said conflict.

[Disclaimer]

I didn't say it couldn't be done. I only stated its much less of a hassle for the original titleholder to do it than someone further down the line.

And, I'd rather people actually read it for themselves and get educated than twist my words (since I don't have a huge amount of clout on here). There are a lot of nuances to things and experience says many people are dismissive on here if you type more than two paragraphs to try to explain all those nuances.

I'm glad you actually read it. And to be fair... it's 98 total pages, but the last, like, 40 are examples and pictures, so it's not 98 pages of text.

[bandit]

Holy crap guys! Y'all have been pretty busy here. I truly appreciate all of your inputs and now feel like I have a much better understanding on how to go about a purchase of this sort, should one present itself. Thanks to everyone, and feel free to continue to disagree!

[bandit]

Holy crap guys! Y'all have been pretty busy here. I truly appreciate all of your inputs and now feel like I have a much better understanding on how to go about a purchase of this sort, should one present itself. Thanks to everyone, and feel free to continue to disagree!

[bandit]

Update. I just bought a 94 CBR F2, clean title, in pretty good shape. It will be faster than me when I start doing track days next season. Can't wait!