I want everyone to hate me, apparently.

[Scruit]

If you're not a facebook friend of mine, then you missed this... Here ya go. Just spent 30 minutes on this:

The conversation on gun availability is under way. In this post I will endeavor to alienate every single human in the world in one way or another.

1) We HAVE to have mental health involved in some way in the gun purchasing process . That will have to fall somewhere between the extremes of everyone having to submit a doctor's note saying you are "sane", all the way down to mental health professions being required to report "dangerous" people to the govt... I dunno where that will fall, but we have to start trying to prevent dangerous people buying guns. In the UK there is a mental evaluation process for licensing.

2) NICS checks on private purchases is on the table, and I'm all for it. Responsible gun owners already keep good records and verify buyers - this will be nothing different. The exact mechanism will have to be decided.

3) Banning high capacity magazines is a feel-good measure. It may pass but will have no effect. a 30 round mag can be emptied in a few seconds, a mag can be changed in a few seconds. It will have no appreciable difference in the rate of fire.

4) Expanding CCW rights will help. These cowards pick soft targets that are not defended and effective resistance is the only thing that will stop them. That is why they shoot themselves once the police arrive, or an armed citizen intervenes. There is a good reason these crazies shoot up soft targets, not police stations etc. They may be crazy but they're not stupid. They'd get their asses shot off in three seconds flat and they know it. They know that they can shoot up a school and meet zero effective resistance.

5) Arming teachers is an interesting suggestion that is "just crazy enough to work". I'd go for an "air marshal" system where teachers who wish to can be trained to police standards and have to regularly recertify. They would undergo background checks / polygraphs and other safeguards that would allow us to trust them as we trust police officers. You can't MAKE people carry guns. That's a personal choice.

6) Mandatory safe storage laws are likely to come this way. Responsible gun owners already do this, especially if there are kids in the household. If my gun is not in my holster is is in a safe, NO EXCEPTIONS. We hear too many stories of kids finding guns - who are the morons leaving loaded guns around kids? These safe storage laws should NOT force the guns to be stored unloaded. We, as a country, recognize our law abiding citizens have a right to self defense. If we get safe storage laws they must allow for home defense weapons to be stored ready to go. None of this UK-style "ammo in a different safe" bullshit which is ideally suited to UK-style disdain for self defense.

7) None of this will stop school massacres. It will just make the crazies use a different weapon. Meat cleaver, bomb, samurai sword, sarin gas, whatever.

8) Locking the school doors during the day is a great idea. My son explained his school's lockdown process and it's great. I hope the schools don't forget to think like a crazy person and ask themselves; "How else do I get to them?" They need to protect the playground too. (back to point 5)

9) School massacres are not unique to the US. They are not unique to guns. They are not unique to men, or white people, or any other single predictable factor other than balls-out batshit crazy. The difference here is that our right to own guns is abused by the crazies. We must preserve our right to own guns while looking for effective solutions to stop the crazies rather than feel-good measure that make people THINK they are doing something worthwhile but are not really. This will require compromises on both sides, but will also require a better understanding of the root of the problem and that will only come with a frank and open forum, effective communication and, where needed, compromise. I don't want to hear "out of my cold dead hands" or "thin end of the wedge", nor do I want to hear "why do you need a XYZ gun?" or "So it's ok of kids to die then?" We all have our well-rehearsed rhetoric and snappy comebacks. Keep that crap to yourselves. I want to hear real, effective, workable solutions.

10) This is not about "assault weapons" or calibers or magazine capacity or anything like that. Virginia Tech was carried out with handguns and had a higher death toll. The caliber most likely to be used in a murder is .22 so talk about banning large caliber or assault weapons is not the answer.

I think I'm about done, now that the gun rights and gun control advocates alike hate me. Now to watch my friend counter drop like Romney's poll numbers after the 47% comment...

[Tpoppa]

#5 Marshall concept I suggested in another thread. I think it's worth discussing.

[Rod38um]

I just read the first two and you sound like a communist dictator ready to oppress his subjects into third world status......

Edited December 19, 2012 by Rod38um

[Scruit]

I just read the first two and you sound like a communist dictator ready to oppress his subjects into third world status......

Read the rest.

[Gixxus Christ!]

Eh....I doubt anything the govt does during the knee-jerk reaction to this shooting will have any basis in common sense or our rights as a free society. The old adage is 'never waste a good tragedy' and Obama and Pelosi are going to ride this one till the wheels fall off.

[BDBGoalie]

The constant media blaming the weapon for what crazy people do with them is just ignorant.

I for one dislike the idea of adding any bloat to our firearms laws as they stand, but I think I lean towards agreeing with #1, depending on the way it was implemented.

Arming teachers only works if they go through real training, not some horseshit NRA weapons class. The class would have to cover psychological screening, as well as multiple situations. I would require monthly practice and yearly qualifying, along with a psychological eval every five years or so. Random checks and enforcement would have to be implemented as well.

Even with all of that the public will never go for it.

I think the real answer is for weapon owners to be responsible and keep their weapons in a safe and secure fashion. And stop raising kids to be pussies that are all sensitive and worried about their feelings. That would stop 99% of this crap.

[Gixxus Christ!]

Front sight and a few other training facilities are offering to train teachers for free.

[BDBGoalie]

Basic training is good, but the training has to hit on specialized points.

The operation of the firearm has to be second nature, which only comes with lots of practice.

The psychological conditioning is really the big part.

Identify the threat, and determine if it is a situation that really needs a lethal response.

Training to manage all this threat awareness without becoming hyper-vigilant and being unable to function as a teacher.

Have the training to talk them down if possible.

Training to deal with the aftermath of taking another person's life.

Training to help the students deal with seeing a life taken.

Then you still have to have the right teacher with the right training with the will to act in the right classroom.

Seems like a lot to line up just right to make it work. Else wise you'll end up with a trigger happy teacher shooting a twitchy student and then it's all over.

Better answer is a trained (preferably with combat/military/leo experience) guard that can function as a gatekeeper to the school. Post them at the single access point to the school and they can subtlety screen all entrants. That way they already have the mental and physical training, and they don't have to worry about maintaining a certain persona for the kids. Arm them with a concealed pistol and an arms locker with whatever the situation may require. Of course they will have training requirements and psychological standards to keep up with as well.

Seems like a better answer to me.

[Scruit]

Better answer is a trained (preferably with combat/military/leo experience) guard that can function as a gatekeeper to the school. Post them at the single access point to the school and they can subtlety screen all entrants.

So the crazy knows he only has to cap this one guard and he's done. Create a distraction like a car accident in the parking lot and take him out first.

How sickening that we have to think like this to keep our kids safe...

[vf1000ride]

A single armed guard at a school is useless. There are many schools around the country that already have private armed security forces and metal detectors at all entrance points, use Philadelphia as an example if you want to see violence in schools.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/special_packages/inquirer/school-violence/117934314.html

You know what, violent crime still happens at these schools. Some of these schools have more violent crime per year than some small cities. It may not be mass murder but beatings, stabbings and gang crime still happens. You can regulate the living shit out of the law abiding citizens and it is still not going to stop a criminal from hurting people.

[magley64]

I like most of the suggestions...

[blue03636]

I'm not sure how you would enforce #6 until after it's too late.

[conn-e-rot]

You win I hate you

[Tpoppa]

Re #5 From a previous thread:

Schools are gun free zones. Apparently, psychos interpret this as a place to inflict damage with little resistance. Onsite security guards or police could change that perception, but that would cause other problems. 1. Schools can barely afford books and they can't afford to pay armed guards either. 2. Do we really want children growing up thinking they need to see an armed guard to feel safe? Of course not.

What if the Air Marshall model was applied to schools? What if 2-3 staff members at each school were trained to be school 'Marshalls?' They could have access to a weapon stored in a safe in a secret location within the school? They would be able to respond faster than the 10 minutes it took for CT police to get to the school? Plus, just like an Air Marshall, their identities could remain secret until they had reason to reveal themselves...which we all hope would never be necessary.

I am not 'married' to this idea, but I think it's worth discussing. It may be enough to make a badguy think twice about targeting a school.

I don't like the idea of teachers carrying guns in the classroom. I think it could become a distraction and send the wrong message to kids. I think a safe in a secret location would have some merit.

I think the mission of a 'School Marshall' would need to be clearly identified. They would not be not law enforcement. They would be a first responder with very specific rules of engagement. If they couldn't neutralize a threat at least they could offer some resistence, reducing or preventing a tradgedy.

Lost to consider...

-Background/Psychological checks, even though teachers already go through a form of this.

-It would have to be voluntary, perhaps 'extra duty' could be offered.

-Training and training costs.

-Weapons and ammunition selected to minimize risks of collateral damage.

Again, I think this in an interesting discussion point. There are certainly lots of pros and cons to be considered.

[ScubaCinci]

I don't disagree with a lot of what you had to say. Some of my thoughts (not arguments):

• Gun bans are an ineffectual band-aid that doesn't address the root of the problem. They keep honest people honest and those with the will and means will do what it takes to get what they want. This is plainly evidenced with illegal drugs. This can and has been argued ad naseum.
  
• Passing laws to force people to properly lock up their firearms is only enforceable AFTER an event such as this. Unless they plan on surprise inspections. I wholeheartedly dissapprove of any law that does not have a practical and consistent method of enforcement.
  
• The mental health issue is a big one. 1 person out of 100 is schizophrenic. 10% suffer from depression and 22% suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder. (per the CDC)
  
• The lack of parenting skills and the fact that the cost of living is so high, both parents must work to make ends meet means many kids are not given a proper upbringing and taught the value of life. Instead they are "babysat" by video games, TV and the streets. There weren't as many problems like this in the 50's and 60's and there were just as many guns around. Ask any teacher how engaged most parents are in their kids' lives - very few anymore.
  

[conn-e-rot]

Re #5 From a previous thread:

I don't like the idea of teachers carrying guns in the classroom. I think it could become a distraction and send the wrong message to kids. I think a safe in a secret location would have some merit.

I think the mission of a 'School Marshall' would need to be clearly identified. They would not be not law enforcement. They would be a first responder with very specific rules of engagement. If they couldn't neutralize a threat at least they could offer some resistence, reducing or preventing a tradgedy.

Lost to consider...

-Background/Psychological checks, even though teachers already go through a form of this.

-It would have to be voluntary, perhaps 'extra duty' could be offered.

-Training and training costs.

-Weapons and ammunition selected to minimize risks of collateral damage.

Again, I think this in an interesting discussion point. There are certainly lots of pros and cons to be considered.

If they allowed the teachers to carry, why would the students need to know which ones did and which ones didn't? IMHO it would defeat the purpose to have the teachers openly carrying in school keep it concealed so no one knows for sure who has a gun and who doesn't.

[ScubaCinci]

The only reservation I have about teachers carrying is at some point, one will get careless or a student bent on mayhem will get ahold of it and do something tragic. It would only be a matter of time I'm afraid. Still, if it prevents more than it causes it would be a good thing.

[Tpoppa]

If they allowed the teachers to carry, why would the students need to know which ones did and which ones didn't? IMHO it would defeat the purpose to have the teachers openly carrying in school keep it concealed so no one knows for sure who has a gun and who doesn't.

I disagree. Air Marshalls are kept secret for good reason. You know don't know who they are. If you are a bad guy how could you take out the Air Marshall if his idenity is secret?

Also, would you really want kids think they has to see someone armed in order to feel safe?

edit...I think I misread Conn-e's comment

[magley64]

If they allowed the teachers to carry, why would the students need to know which ones did and which ones didn't? IMHO it would defeat the purpose to have the teachers openly carrying in school keep it concealed so no one knows for sure who has a gun and who doesn't.

I disagree. Air Marshalls are kept secret for good reason. You know don't know who they are. If you are a bad guy how could you take out the Air Marshall if his idenity is secret?

Also, would you really want kids think they has to see someone armed in order to feel safe?

I think you guys actually agree, re-read.

[conn-e-rot]

good catch mags

[Tpoppa]

I think you guys actually agree, re-read.

see edit.

[Scruit]

Shall. Not. Be. Infringed.

Not all rights are absolute. It's up to SCOTUS balance one person's rights against another.

- We have freedom of the press, but we also have obscenity laws

- We have the 2a, but felons are not permitted to buy guns

[Scruit]

I do not support your suggestion for private sale verification. That would require some sort of registration' date=' which I am fully in opposition to.

Magazine capacity is irrelevant. Anybody that knows anything about semi-automatic weapons knows how quickly a fresh 10 round magazine can be swapped for a spent magazine.

Doctor's note? How on earth would you police and enforce the validity of those notes? If judges can be bought, so can physicians.[/quote']

Registration is illegal. I am not suggesting that. If private sale went through an FFL then the FFL would keep their normal records. If NICS was opened up to private citizens to use then some kind of form would be printed out that would document (not save) the fact that a NICS check was done, the buyer and the seller info, and the buyer and seller would both keep a copy for x years - like tax records. That's one idea.

Mag sizes: I agree - 10 deep won't help. Fixed mags (even more restrictive than the bullet button) will mean the shooter carries more guns, or someone will adapt the rifle or magazine to be quickly reloaded using an enfield-style stripper clip.

Doctor's Note: That was just a suggestion. The discussion is good. How to we validate a doctor's note? Well, we can have doctors prequalified by the NRA or the state. Or we allow a doctor to be disqualified from firearms notes (in the same way the ccw permit accepts NRA-certified instructors, but can strike off an instructor if they are found to be acting illegally)

[conn-e-rot]

How about the government worries about fixing the economy and getting this country out of debt and leaves my fucking guns alone.

[Brownsfan1]

^^^+1