chevysoldier

Pulled from another forum.

My primary goal when I’m out and about, besides whatever I went out and about to do, is to go about peaceably and not be the victim of a violent crime. To that end I carry a firearm whenever I go out as well as follow all the other standard safety practices like maintaining situational awareness, staying out of high crime areas, and avoiding confrontation. I also have a larger overall goal of making it through my life without shooting anyone. Simply put, I don’t want to be responsible, legally or morally, for another’s death. Those two goals might appear at first blush to be mutually exclusive, and with concealed carry it would be a difficult set of goals to realize.

Carry of any firearm or other weapon for defensive purposes is a solemn responsibility. Those of us that do (openly or concealed) are mortified by the idea, constantly promoted by the pacifists, that our behavior is more reckless because we are armed. In other words, because we carry a handgun we take more risks than we would if we were unarmed. While it would be dishonest to claim we are all responsible gun owners, it is my belief that the vast majority of us are. Regardless of what or how you carry, you need to come to the realization that you are setting yourself up to lose. Whenever you are placed in a defensive situation, you will always lose; it’s only the degree of loss that’s negotiable. Ayoob hits on this in his book, In the Gravest Extreme. He suggests tossing the robber a small wad of cash and moving off, even if you could prevail with a weapon. There’s a very good reason for this. Regardless of how skilled you are at drawing your weapon, you are going to lose. It may be only a minor loss, like being very shaken up and not sleeping well for a few days, or it may be a major loss, like becoming fertilizer, or (most likely) it may be somewhere in-between, but you always lose. Your life will not be the same even if you prevail.

Carrying a concealed firearm presents to a criminal that I am unarmed. Every study I’ve ever read, not most but every study, says that criminals will avoid an armed person or home when selecting a victim. That only makes sense, right? Robbers, rapists, or carjackers might be dumb and opportunistic, but they have the same instinctual sense of self preservation we all have. Hyenas don’t attack lions to steal the gazelle the lions have just killed. It’s all about risk management; are the potential gains (a tasty gazelle dinner) worth the risks (pain and damage the lion’s teeth will cause), and does the hyena really need to test the lion to figure out the answer? No, the hyena can see the lion’s teeth and knows to stay well clear.

Deterrent Value:

When I’m carrying concealed I feel like my ‘teeth’ are hidden, and thus of no real deterrent value. If I appear unarmed then I am unarmed in the eyes of the robber, I appear as easy a target as almost anyone else out on the street. My probability of being a victim of a crime, violent or otherwise, is completely unchanged by the fact that I have hidden beneath my shirt the means to defend myself. My goal, however, is not to be a victim in the first place, remember? I don’t want to be a victim that fought back successfully and triumphed; I prefer to not be victimized at all. I recognize that there are some people who (think they) want to be victimized so they can whip out their concealed firearm and ‘surprise’ the mugger; that is, in my opinion, foolish immaturity. Concealed carry is good; it throws a wrench in the works for criminals who might see the teeming masses as a smorgasbord of financial gain. This deterrent effect is, nonetheless, indirect and often nil. At some point the thug will weigh the risks vs. the gains; is his current desperation for money/drugs/booze/gold grille greater than the gamble that one of those people might be carrying a gun? If he decides to play the odds, which helped along with surprise tip the scale in his favor, he will attack. Will his attack allow enough time for me to draw my concealed firearm to affect a defense? Maybe, but then again, maybe not.

Remember, I don’t want to be a victim and I don’t want to shoot anyone. So how do I realize both goals; or how do I make them inclusive? I can do that through open carry. By making it clear and obvious that I am armed, that I have teeth, I tip the risk scale to the point that the criminal’s gains are far outweighed by the risk. There is no ambiguity when the thug is doing his risk assessment, there’s something right there in plain sight that can quickly and painfully change or terminate his life. You may not think his life has much value, but as I mentioned before, he has the same sense of self preservation as any other living creature and to him it’s every bit as valuable as yours is to you. It would be foolish to ignore this indisputable fact when you develop your overall tactical strategy.

The Five Stages of Violent Crime

I am a firm believer in this defense theology and urge anyone who carries a firearm for protection (and even those who do not) to follow the link and read it carefully. Please, for your and your family’s sake, read that. Drill down into the hyperlinks for better explanations; absorb as much information as you can. A violent crime does not begin at the point where one person with ill intent draws a weapon or attacks another.

Quote:

The Five Stages of Violent Crime:

Crime and violence are processes that take time to develop. The attack is not the first step, the preliminary triangle must be built. There are five distinct stages that are easily identified:

1) Intent

2) Interview

3) Positioning

4) Attack

5) Reaction

I do not believe the act begins after the BG has made his intentions known by drawing on you (attack); it began when he formed the intent. Well, there’s not a lot I can do personally to stop another’s intent, so I need to look a little farther along in the sequence and try to derail that train before it gets to the attack. For the sake of argument, let’s remove weapons from the equation for just a moment. A 5’2” unarmed attacker isn’t going to choose a 6’6” victim over a 5’1” victim, right? He’s going to attack the easier target. Now let’s come back to the reality of violent crime and add back the weapons. Concealed carry presumes it is better to wait until the opponent has drawn his knife or gun and then try to ‘fix’ the situation. It’s seems a bit foolish to promote the idea that it’s better to attempt to stop a violent crime in the fourth stage when you could instead prevent it in the second. A concealed weapon cannot deter an attack at the ‘interview’ stage; it’s completely ineffectual in that role. Open carry is the only method that provides a direct deterrent. Let’s say the bad-guy missed the openly carried pistol and holster during the interview stage, and has proceeded to the ‘positioning’ stage. Chances are pretty good he’ll see it at some point then, right? Then, let’s say the planets have all aligned just so and he, for whatever reason, has begun his attack despite your openly carried sidearm. At this point, the OCer is on level footing with the CCer, the attack has begun. Who has the advantage? Well, I’m going to say that with all things being equal (skill level and equipment) the OCer has a speed of draw advantage over the CCer.

First One To Be Shot:

There are some who criticize open carry and claim it will make you more of a target or ‘the first one shot’ when a robber walks into the 7-11, despite the absolute lack of credible evidence that this has ever happened. If the robber walks in and sees that you’re armed, his whole plan has encountered an unexpected variable. In bank robberies where he might expect to see an armed guard he will have already factored that possibility into his plan, but only for the armed guard, not for open or concealed carry citizens. No robber robs a bank without at least a rudimentary plan. Nevertheless, being present for a bank robbery is an extremely remote possibility for most of us regardless of our preferred method of handgun carry, so let’s go back in the 7-11. If the robber sees someone is armed he is forced to either significantly alter the plan or abort it outright. Robbing is an inherently apprehensive occupation, and one that doesn’t respond well to instant modifications. He is not prepared to commit murder when he only planned for larceny. He knows that a petty robbery will not garner the intense police manhunt a murder would. He doesn’t know if you’re an armed citizen or a police officer and isn’t going to take the time to figure it out. Either way, if someone in the 7-11 is unexpectedly armed, how many others might be similarly adorned and where might they be? Does this unexpectedly armed individual have a partner who is likewise armed nearby, someone who is watching right now? Self preservation compels him to abort the plan for one that is less risky. So we see that the logic matches the history; open carriers are not the first ones shot because it doesn’t make sense in any common street crime scenario that they would be. If your personal self protection plan emphasizes “Hollywood” style crimes over the more realistic street mugging, it might be best to stay home.

Raging Against Self Defense

If I were to summarize this article in three sentences, they would be:

(1) People who identify themselves as "victims" harbor excessive amounts of rage at other people, whom they perceive as "not victims."

(2) In order psychologically to deal with this rage, these "victims" utilize defense mechanisms that enable them to harm others in socially acceptable ways, without accepting responsibility or suffering guilt, and without having to give up their status as "victims."

(3) Gun owners are frequently the targets of professional victims because gun owners are willing and able to prevent their own victimization.

http://www.vcdl.org/new/raging.htm

We could run with that, and the congresspeople who have a salary that is the farthest away from the national average have their votes mean the least.

I didn't say it was the best or final solution. Just something to base their salary from instead of them making so much for not giving a damn about the people the represent.

I figured you were. I don't think politicians should be payed more than our military. Or they (politicians) should at least take a pay cut during times when military personnel are in combat zones. Bet they would think harder about when they send our men and women over seas.

I'd like to see a pay scale based on the average income of the people they represent.

listen bub, you may be itching to stick your finger up your ass and do the Ranger wipe, but the rest of us aren't so squirrely.

Ah, well you've never really lived then!

Same could be said about the military.

True, I was just messing though.

I read the title and was ready to be pissed off.

That is funny though.

Not campaigning for it or anything cuz I dont disagree with you, but this place has an old cabin with wood burner, hot shower and nice outhouse. Its about 1:45 from carroll if you take the freeway and surrounded by NICE twisty Appalachian roads.

Then that isn't camping.

pink

I'm partial to hocking but I've never just driven there to camp, always hiked out to the site. Not sure a lot of people would enjoy that like me and Casper. Would probably be a good idea for the first one to be in Ohio and close so people can learn from it for next time?

I'll know for sure when the date gets closer.

I have that weekend off (and any other date you change it too), so I should be in for this.

I don't have a tent yet, but will start looking. Anyone know a very easy to set up/take down tent they would recommend?

If we're planning on actually cooking at a campfire and stuff...would it be easier if we do a potluck type of thing? Just seems like it might be easier. I know both Bens have plenty of room to pack whatever, just throwing out an idea to help those with less room.

I have one like this. It's a 1 or 2 man tent. Think I got it at Cabela's or Gander Mountain. Very simple to set up, very lightweight and small. I use this when I go backpacking.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=one+man+tent&hl=en&qscrl=1&biw=1366&bih=643&bav=on.2,or.&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=698465524392389513&sa=X&ei=wuB3TbboCYnyrAGjk7n4CQ&ved=0CL8BEPMCMAk4KA#

There will be tin foil cooking involved.

Need to go back and find all of Casper's camping recipes

Id like to go but I doubt my bike could haul much. Id be willing to cage it. If anyone wants me to tow a trailer with some dirt bikes I can. I also have a huge cooler for beer

You don't need a whole lot, especially if it's just a weekend deal. A back back and/or tail bag should work

So true. Camping to me is when you have to dig a hole to shit in.

and using the ranger wipe. (Tear off one piece of TP. Stick your finger through the middle and wipe your ass with your finger then grab the TP and wipe your finger as you pull it off.) That's hardcore.

I love camping, HATE sleeping on the ground, but it does sound like fun

Then it's not really camping.

Reminds me of this random image I found on my computer tonight:

And yeah, that's me. I don't remember who made this, but it still cracks me up.

You're black? But that is funny as hell.

i havent put my boy scout skills to use in a while so im probably down, even though i dont even know you guys lol

<insert banjo music here>

Im in for sure as long as I dont have something going that weekend. Just give me the details. And we are talking real camping with tents etc not this stay at a hotel stuff?

Yeah, real camping in tents with campfires and stuff

possibly need more details... sadly i've never camped out before

Load up your camping gear on the bike (tent, food and drinks, sleeping bag, whatever else) ride then camp out somewhere. Or you might be able to share a tent with someone. I have a one man tent. Or sleep outside.

This speed shooting challenge with the 1911 looks pretty cool.

I would be depending on when/where. With my wife working weekends I have to make plans for someone to watch my kid.

I don't have DVR and this is one of the few shows I make sure I catch.

Soon, all my stories will begin " Back in my day......"

You had to walk to school in the snow, barefoot, uphill both ways?

10 minute warning.

Hahahaha you mean HOLY shit.. You ra-tard.. Lol

No, I think he meant Holly shat.

Know each other? They are all related to each other.

This made me lol

Too bad I just bought the same gun a few weeks ago or I would be all over it.

Don't you just hate when that happens?