Moto-Brian

Not loaded at all. The difference is whether or not an org has a school involved and the status they place on their staff. Instructors are SUPPOSED to instruct. Unfortunately, some orgs have better instruction with CRs than some track day companies like STT, Mid-O, etc have with "instructors". I think for example, Ducati Indy days as an example of CRs doing an exceptional job at helping and instructing riders. I know a lot of the CRs as they are called that work those events and I know their way of doing things and know they are instructing and helping others get better. It also depends on how often you ride with a set org. If you are a full on STT guy for example, you will feel you get more from them than a CR based org. Or, if you do more MRCA days for example, you will feel CRs give you more. It's very much relative. Again, nobody does it perfectly so, there are issues on both ends. But, the quality of the org is apparent easily. I think that there are 4 solid companies around us here. Mid-O, Ducati Indy Days, Moto Series and STT. You get a lot of choices and really, all have something to offer almost everyone.

Track days have either control riders or instructors... Mid-O has instructors.

This is a HUGE hurdle and needs to be addressed. However, CR are different than Instructors. Instructors instruct while control riders monitor and assist at times. At Mid-O, they have instructors and they should be doing just that. However, a lot do not and therefore are just CRs out there and that's not helping anyone. I have a few ideas on how to get the connection between riders wanting help and maybe being too intimidated with asking for help and maybe even instructors not finding the riders needing help. As mentioned before with the wheelies and stuff, that is fairly a small group of instructors. Albeit, they need to be talked to and fix the issues or just simply find another org to ride with. The idea that these guys are volunteers is totally fine, but they need to understand that they are there for helping customers FIRST and track time secondary. Again, most get it and do it. Just a few do not. My suggestion would be for the organization you ride with that has maybe some issues with the instructors or CRs, you write an email or post something on their forum if they have one. The only way things can change is if they are mentioned. Otherwise, people will continue to go along as they do because they will never hear the issues. If they never hear them, they cannot be proactive and get them fixed/addressed. You should NEVER have to teach yourself. Never. Plus, the idea of teaching yourself is fine, but if you do not know what you should be doing to correct something, you may develop a bad habit or do something wrong and get hurt. Or, you may not even know that you are doing something that can be holding back your development and simply truck along doing something that is holding you back and never even know it.

THIS!! People think staring their bikes in winter is a good idea. It is not. You need a certain RPM range and load placed on the bike or it is just draining your battery. I've NEVER used Stabil or anything like that in my fuel. I drain the tank and change the oil in the spring and run it. I remove the battery every winter and put inside and will even check the charge or use a Battery Tender or similar, but usually never needed. I have never had a garage that is above freezing, either. Been doing this with race bikes and street bikes since 1989... I think since the several bikes I've owned, I've had one have a bad battery that needed replaced after winter storage. NOW!! Note I haven't had a bike for several years at a time so, it may be a moot point in my suggestion. But, I would put clean fuel in it, as long as the oil is due to be changed, leave that in and remove the battery. I always covered mine, plugged the exhaust and because I usually had the bodywork off from cleaning and prep, I would tape the inlets on the ram air to avoid nesting mice. That's why I also plug the exhaust...

It is a great spot to pass and is an easy spot to do so. It only becomes a block pass when you stuff up inside as they are turning in and you stand them up. Otherwise, if it is tight and you take the line away, it isn't ever usually an issue as you can still adjust to make the turn and drive out. That drive out of 8 you refer is a great spot to drive from, but it is also important to set the turn up in 9 for drive between 9 and 10. Almost more important in terms of lap times as several drive well down the hill, but are slow through 9 and the entry to 10.

Uh, some are not, my friend. The fact is that if you are an Advanced instructor, you should be able to manage traffic, move up through that traffic to evaluate the riders in that group and be able to constructively teach the riders as well as understand what is needed to have them advance in ability and technique. There are a few instructors that cannot meet that criteria. Now, I do believe that not every staff member needs to be an Advanced level rider and can be exceptional at instructing Intermediate and Novice. There are many that are at that level and would be great at doing that. But, in Advanced, there is a select few instructors that shouldn't be wearing a vest out there and are not capable of getting through traffic to assist others. Also, it isn't about "who wants it". It should also include "Who need it". Instructors need to be proactive. There is an intimidation level of riders at track days in asking for assistance. Many never do as a result. That hurdle exists everywhere and at every track day. Now, understand that MOST the staff at Mid-O do an exceptional and wonderful job. I have seen several instructors be proactive, assist and instruct/teach. Many will follow and help through an entire session and work one on one several times.

I see the advantage of having such qualifiers in groups like NESBA's "A" group, but the fact is that allowing just race license riders and evaluated (Would essentially be able to run a racer's pace) riders is something that would eliminate customers from attending. Mid-O has a self evaluation platform and I think that is good. Same with Ducati Indy days etc... Essentially, most track days run this formula and seeing that the success is pretty much higher than NESBA's, I think it works. The fact however, is that the instructors need to evaluate and be more proactive in moving people up and down. There are several riders that are repeat customers that are just not capable of running "A" level pace. They've been at the track and running the track more than most and yet they have not got better. Thus, they should be put down to "I" group or taken and helped one on one and taught the things needed to get better. Otherwise, they are really, a hazard out there. There is one guy that is always there and rides "A" group every time. I have suggested that he be moved down as he is unpredictable and even has on occasion, made some moves that were dangerous for "A", but would have been fine in "I". He can probably run 1-2 average paced laps, but overall, he is difficult to predict and is erratic in line choice. I think I have asked maybe 1/2 dozen times and have given up. He needs assistance, but I never see a coach with him. He isn't getting better, smoother or faster and should be an "I" rider. I know Todd at Mid-O is going to be addressing this issue as well. I believe that each year, the system gets better and better as a result of the hard work of Brett, Steve and now Todd. Those guys care about the system and the program and are taking steps to make things better. I promise. But, with ANY track day org., there are going to be these same issues. It's just a fact. The idea of racers only in the "A" group eliminates a lot of customers and that's not good. Probably why NESBA has been dropping tracks and membership year after year. Too many other options that cater to the average track day rider... As for the instructor issue... Well, I won't comment as a few are on here and get a little upset that comments are made publicly. But, I agree 100%. If the instructor does not have the experience nor ability to be in a set group level, how can they be effective at instructing? I also believe that there is a lot of bad info being put out there for riders in their quest at getting better. That needs to be adjusted and only a qualified instructor giving that info or instructing a group.

Another issue however is that riders SHOULD NOT be looking over their shoulders worrying about what is behind them. A pretty damn awesome AMA Pro told me once at Road Atlanta that I need to worry about what is in front of me and race forward. If I race what is behind me, I will be worse off and cause issue when they need to get by. I was talking to him about when they were coming up behind me in practice... So, looking over your shoulder is a BAD idea and preached to NOT be done by riders. Only instructors should be looking over their shoulders looking for customers to assist as they lap.

It's not a race. You allow any distance passing in Advanced and you are going to have crashes galore. Stuff passing and aggressive passing will be the norm and cause serious issues. Not a good idea at all. Plus, there are NUMEROUS Advanced riders that can run a set lap time and be smooth and consistent and be fine, but are not going to have the speed that say, you are going to have and passing needs to be civil, controlled and at a set distance AS A GOAL. Understand that the goal can be set and you will still have closer than asked for passing. Overall, the advanced group has zero instruction which I want to change and has almost zero input from instructors. There are several riders in Advanced that need moved down for safety reasons and the fact that they will have more fun in a group of like riders and like abilities. You are right that there are riders that need to be in a different group. But, that is ANY group and ANY level.

Ahhhhh.... Sorry Nate!!

To you and TRM... The idea for a great chance to pass when the times are close or you have to make a bold move to get by, try working on drive corners. Drive corners are VERY important and allow you to set up passing well into the next area where it is feasible. Taking Nelson as an example... The last turn on to the front straight. Get a great drive and plan your approach and exit with the guy in front and if you can pull a better drive, you may not get passed him on the straight, but it will pull you forward to be able to outbrake into turn one. Turn 4 is a drive turn also. A great outbraking turn also to the entry, but BE CAREFUL! You may scrub too much speed going in and lose drive out and have the guy come around the outside. Carousel is a drive turn also. Get a great drive out and you will put bike lengths on your guy instantly. Kink. Outside wide open. Pass. Drive corners are so important and typically not as well discussed as I would like in track day formats. They discuss braking and passing under brakes for example, but nothing about drive corners. Look at your favorite track. How many drive corners vs braking corners? More drives usually...

HAHAHAHAHA! I don't even remember that! I used to get passed a LOT back then and remember we had some cool races together and with several of the group of guys we raced with. 95? HMMMMMM... I think I was running just WERA National Challenge stuff in the C Production and B Production classes... That was my last year as a novice, I think...

There is no room for block passes in a track day.

Trust me, they aren't just the liter bike riders that have issues. I've seen lightweight bikes cause serious issues as well. It is a rider issue - not a bike issue. You can ride any bike of any size and whether you are new or experienced, the rider makes the bike go well or not. As for the passing issues, passing is going to happen and especially in Advanced, you will get inside passing. Inside passing is totally accepted. I'd even consider an inside pass under braking a norm. You cannot run a trackday in Advanced or Intermediate without passing allowed...

Thanks, Rusty. I try hard to be as nice as I can. I think at track days there is no need to be aggressive and bomb corners and riders to make a lap. But, back to your point, if the riders were like yourself that were smooth and predictable, there wouldn't be any of this to worry about. Not saying there are a majority of inconsistent or erratic riders. I actually feel they are a minority and most are really, really good and awesome to deal with. I also think the example guy was smooth and fine also, but there was an issue where I think when a rider considers something close, it could be because they came over and didn't see the passing rider until well after the passing rider was obligated to that turn. So, it actually becomes a close pass...

There's a lot more opportunities to pass at Grattan than having to wait from the jump until later. You can pass where you did and do it cleanly on the inside, but if it is a deal where you are approaching and stuff the guy, you need to wait a bit and pass into the bowl or the right hander out of the bowl or the kink after. The amount of time waiting isn't that much and for a track day, I would expect you to be more patient. I do think the area you passed is perfectly fine, but if you stand a guy up by stuffing in there, you needed to wait a bit longer.

The bottom line I try and preach to riders is smooth and consistent. You do those two things and usually, it is easy as pie on both ends of the passing ordeal. I think as a track day rider advances, the ability to handle passing and being passed SHOULD advance with them. However, the thing I think happens is that the preaching of wider passing distances are instilled in their heads. I am not saying we need to teach close passing, but if a rider gets into Advanced and is average to above average and is spooked or uncomfortable with close passing, they have obviously advanced their riding skills, but not their traffic management or passing abilities. I watch a lot of track day guys be patient and while I think that is great, I think that they can also cause an accordion effect with others. Again, not saying teach the art of the stuff, but rather teach the art of passing and when, where, how needs to be done... Dunno... I wanna hear what the track day guys think. The race guys are good food for thought as I think what they do at a track day is interesting. I like what Craig mentioned. I think he's very exact in the idea of close passes...

We can discuss race passes! Not a problem. So far, it is only racers talking so far and I hope it doesn't spook the track day guys as I want them to talk about what they feel is too close or fine, etc... The idea of yours that there is no reason to put an aggressive pass on a rider at a track day is well and good, but the problem is like what I used as an example where it probably could be viewed as aggressive, but was not intended that way.

Nah. If he has a place where they can cut it on a good quality band saw for example? Won't hurt anything... They cut them to length as it is so, doing it right won't harm anything. I was just getting at the idea that 9" wasn't long enough (I already know where that comment is going to go), but 11" is too long and needs cut down... We are talking one inch and I guess I am confused why that is an issue... Now, let the homos use those sentences for feeding their thoughts for one another... Begin.

Reach arounds net a 25% discount for Mad. I'm just sayin...

So, was sitting and having an awesome discussion on track days and racing and such with a few buddies. The topic of passing came up in track days. One of the guys that was with a buddy was a bit upset over some passes. He mentioned a pass that I even put on him at Mid-Ohio and felt it was just too close and wasn't what was told to be the norm by the track day director Todd... So, we all started in on the topic and I came away thinking it would be a good topic to discuss on a forum... The idea is that yes, the rule is a "wingspan" in Advanced. Bigger in Intermediate. Those are guidelines of course and shit happens where it will be closer on occasion. But, if used as a guide, it shouldn't be an issue on either party's side. The bottom line is that the one passing (passer) is responsible for a safe and clean pass. In this case, even responsible for the distance between when passing. Well, that's great in theory. I've passed guys while leaning on them in a race, I've banged into a guy when stuffing him like a Thanksgiving turkey and I have also been stuffed and hit by others when I was first racing. Shoulders, elbows, knees, etc. All have brushed, been hit or used when hitting/passing. All under race conditions and most unintentional. For the most part, I have never been accused of a dirty pass or even an aggressive pass. During track days, things are different. I don't honestly trust most the riders and with that, I try to avoid close passes. Reason is two fold. One, I don't want to spook a rider. I just want to try and make it clean and quick enough that I am there and gone in an effort to just do my thing and get on down the road. I will pass quickly and cruise after. Meaning, I will speed up to pass and drop the hammer if need be to get by and then step it down after so I can run a normal and uneventful pace. Two, I don't want to be taken out. This is something that has happened to me and the reason was due to the first issue. Rider got spooked and I ended up highsiding and a dislocated shoulder and a concussion and a severely broken bike. I honestly try and make it a quick in and out and do this as often as I can to avoid this. Or, if they do get spooked, it is after I am either far enough passed them that if they do get spooked and sit up or react in a way that could cause issue, I am out of the danger zone. So, getting back to the guy that had issue. The scenario: Guy rides a big twin. He is a fairly capable Advanced level track day guy. NOT a racer, but I would say he is above average in terms of pace and ability. Smooth and fairly predictable. Easy enough, right? But, there is the typical issues. His bike is fast out of a corner due to the big twin and has ass down the straights. All well and fine, but the issue then is that the typical part being that he brakes too much and has slower corner speed. Thus, you draw him back under brakes and mid corner. So, in this case, I get up on the guy at the entry of the Keyhole and do not catch him before the exit. I draw him in from a distance, but he is exiting before me and I have to deal with that big motor. I get a better drive and allows me to start the process of SLOWLY drawing him in. I essentially cause a stalemate as the better drive compensates for the lack of horsepower and I essentially maintain a gap from behind him. I anticipate that he will brake early and scrub a lot of speed going in off the back straight into 7. I move out right and go to pass under him into 7 like I have done maybe a thousand times. He however comes down into the turn on me and it is closer than I made it to be. He sits up as he finally sees me when right beside me. I keep the speed and carry on. I get into Thunder and look over my shoulder to see if he was there and he wasn't before I turned around. Basically, he was well back at that point. The second scenario: Same dude... I come up on the guy coming under the second bridge. I gain ground in Thunder even more so. In typical fashion, turn 13 (called 14 on a map due to superstition) is a turn that tends to get a lot of guys braking early and running slower than needed there. It's an awesome passing point, but if somewhat "iffy", I will wait until the carousel to pass. Well, it was "iffy" so, I drive well out of 13 (14) and into the carousel. He sets up wide left which is also typical and I take the inside line. Again, he is MUCH wider left to me than the line I typically take and in fact, I was taking the same line I always do so, it wasn't any tighter nor squared off. However, again... He comes across and down into the turn and I am there and it sits him up. Closer this time, but no contact and I drive out and keep on moving. That one was a pass that I didn't even think was an issue, but was more of an issue in his mind. So, during the conversation, I remember he had come over to the garage where my buddy was and my buddy throws me under the bus telling the guy I was the asshole that stuffed him twice out there. Thanks, Mike! He gets a little huffy and I ask him why he was pissed? He said it was really close and that I stuffed him which is not what is supposed to happen. He also was upset that I wasn't even running with anyone else and that I could have just waited. So, I basically told him they were clean passes and that there was more than enough room and were both safe and smooth. I mentioned he was off line a good bit and came across on both occasions and I was already obligated. So, here's my comment for discussion... The thought occurred to me that you can make a nice and clean pass that is about 6' away from another rider. I started the pass much earlier than he realized and I think the issue is that while making the pass, I was within that safe distance asked to be followed by track directors, but when the rider came down and across, he did not see me nor know I was there until he was already leaned over and pointing towards the apex. So, he came across and I was already in the spot he was aiming for. That shock that the spot was filled spooked him and caused him to sit up. So, he feels I stuffed him as before his turn in, I was there occupying that portion of the track. I guess what I am saying is that I was making clean pass and obligated and started something that was safe and clean. It ended clean - no touching and we had a good bit of room even though he thought otherwise - but, the issue isn't the pass itself, but rather, the time the passee realized I was there passing... I also think that a lot of times, what is close to one person is a MILE away for another. Comfort zones, experience, etc come into play. There are also times where I fuck up. I can target a pass under braking off the back straight or even turn one and when I get in there hot, realize sometimes early enough it is too close and get 'er shut down hard and avoid it being an aggressive pass or sometimes, I cannot change the delivery of the pass intended and due to the speed difference, for me to shut it down and not make the pass, I am weighing a crash that could take more than myself out or make a stuff/aggressive pass and move along. I am not saying I am Rossi here so, for you guys reading this as arrogant and holier-than-thou at track days, that's not the case at all. This happens to a lot of guys and even Intermediate riders. This is something I was thinking about and thought to share to see what others think... Discuss.

Why would you not just buy the 9" vs cutting the 11"? Just buy 11" and move them inward to desired length. You really shouldn't have to cut clip-ons...

Shit, dude... You need way more than an adult!

I was doin quite fine until your comment on group rides...

Whoa! "how you doin?"