Carry Question: Concealed vs Open

[Gunner75]

My cousin is a sheriff up here in shelby county and ive expressed my opinion on that very thing, he said that if the officer feels that there is a possible threat then they probably will. If they feel there is no threat then not normally.

Ive not even had my first real inform yet. Since Im not a speeder I dont get pulled over that often so Im not sure when that will happen

[BadTrainDriver]

In the state of Ohio, a LEO can disarm you.

Make no mistake!

Arguing can get you killed.

[SWing'R]

Ive not even had my first real inform yet. Since Im not a speeder I dont get pulled over that often so Im not sure when that will happen

Same here.

[r1crusher]

Printing does not count for anything. It's like my dick. It makes a big bulge in my jeans but it isn't exposed. So it is not indecent exposure.

I call shenanigans. Its more like a camel toe instead of a bulge... So I've heard.

[Gunner75]

In the state of Ohio, a LEO can disarm you.

Make no mistake!

Arguing can get you killed.

There is no specific law in favor or against it. Its generally accepted that they can. Im not a fan of it because its my weapon. My military training tells me to never give up my weapon however my common sense says that if i comply it will calm a over zealous leo down and that chip on his shoulder might take a midol

[BadTrainDriver]

There is no specific law in favor or against it. Its generally accepted that they can. Im not a fan of it because its my weapon. My military training tells me to never give up my weapon however my common sense says that if i comply it will calm a over zealous leo down and that chip on his shoulder might take a midol

Wrong.

At the end, read section G.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.12

[Gunner75]

That part does not say anything the enables the officer to disarm an individual. It states

If a law enforcement officer stops a person to question the person regarding a possible violation of this section, for a traffic stop, or for any other law enforcement purpose, if the person surrenders a firearm to the officer, either voluntarily or pursuant to a request or demand of the officer, and if the officer does not charge the person with a violation of this section or arrest the person for any offense, the person is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm, and the firearm is not contraband, the officer shall return the firearm to the person at the termination of the stop. If a court orders a law enforcement officer to return a firearm to a person pursuant to the requirement set forth in this division, division (B) of section 2923.163 of the Revised Code applies.

The part you must be referring to is in red. That doesnt specifically entitle an officer to disarm it just entails what the officer must do if someone surrenders their firearm.

[BadTrainDriver]

Pursuant to a request or demand.

Demand.

There is no argument.

[Tonik]

The law above was to keep cops from keeping your weapon or tearing it apart. It is not that law that gives them the right to secure a weapon during a stop. That is elsewhere and i am not going to Google it.

Of course the cops can take your weapon while they question you or ticket you.

[Gunner75]

I am unable to find it written into any law or even in the CHL handbook that LEO are allowed to disarm, again its generally accepted that they can, and I will not argue that on the side of the road. The only thing in the CHL handbook that states anything about disarming is

"If the CCW licensee surrenders the firearm, then the following applies:

• If the firearm is not returned at the completion of the stop, the

law enforcement officer is required to return the firearm in “the

condition it was in when it was seized."

I accept that for officer safety that they can and will disarm if they feel the need. However I dont like the fact that they can given I am not the one they need to worry about. Im just looking for the specific article or section of the ORC that says they can is all.

[BadTrainDriver]

The law that i quoted may not be the specific one that gives them the ability to disarm you, but because it says "demand", they can.

[Gunner75]

The law that i quoted may not be the specific one that gives them the ability to disarm you, but because it says "demand", they can.

And tell me how many times have we seen case law been thrown out of court because no specific law gave anyone person power to do something. I see where your going with it. Like I said I will allow them to disarm me. I wont like it, I will voice displeasure with it, but I will comply.

[Pokey]

First all of the partially concealed descriptions in this thread describe concealed carry. Where you have the holster clipped into your pocket.....That is considered concealed.

Printing does not count for anything. It's like my dick. It makes a big bulge in my jeans but it isn't exposed. So it is not indecent exposure.

Like cbus said with a chl in Ohio you don't have to worry about these issues. Other than the occasional uniformed cop. You do not have to keep it concealed of you have a chl, there is no such requirement.

Packing a deadly weapon that could shoot off in your britches huh? So since Ohio is already an open carry state, and since we have no firearm printing laws, and if you have a CHL, you can pretty much expose as little or as much of your firearm as you like? So if my shirt/jacket lifts up and exposes my previously concealed weapon, or if part of the holster peaks out from under my shirt or jacket, I am still 100% legal? I had always assumed that I was still legal, but know there are states where that is not the case. Ohio does not have a brandishing law as you mentioned, but public menacing is one they could "potentially" throw a bullshit charge at you with.

[C-bus]

Packing a deadly weapon that could shoot off in your britches huh? So since Ohio is already an open carry state, and since we have no firearm printing laws, and if you have a CHL, you can pretty much expose as little or as much of your firearm as you like? So if my shirt/jacket lifts up and exposes my previously concealed weapon, or if part of the holster peaks out from under my shirt or jacket, I am still 100% legal? I had always assumed that I was still legal, but know there are states where that is not the case. Ohio does not have a brandishing law as you mentioned, but public menacing is one they could "potentially" throw a bullshit charge at you with.

Correct.

[C-bus]

I'm in Florida right now and they do not have open carry (as I understand), so I feel that I have to be more vigilant about keeping it covered.

[Gunner75]

I'm in Florida right now and they do not have open carry (as I understand), so I feel that I have to be more vigilant about keeping it covered.

Ive been told an inadvertent slip up on your gun showing that they can arrest you. I believe there are even a few videos of it as well. Couple of people on a few firearm specific groups on facebook said that a few Florida lawmakers are working on that portion of the law.

[jblosser]

I'm in Florida right now and they do not have open carry (as I understand), so I feel that I have to be more vigilant about keeping it covered.

in FL, unholster that large weapon of yours only in the bathroom or bedroom, big boy...

[SWing'R]

...if the person surrenders a firearm to the officer, either voluntarily or pursuant to a request or demand of the officer...

Pursuant to a request or demand. Demand. There is no argument.

The law that i quoted may not be the specific one that gives them

the ability to disarm you, but because it says "demand", they can.

So, you're saying because it says "demand" that you have to give up your weapon, if they demand it?

So what about when they "demand" your ID and you refuse on the grounds

that you are not required to produce it unless suspected of committing a crime.

There are 100's of youtube videos out there that have proven this "demand" to be unconstitutional

and bogus, so why would it be any different for a "demand" to fork over your weapon,

assuming you were not in the act of committing a crime and just minding your own business.

Like Gunner said, I probably wouldn't argue this demand but its good to know where we

stand legally in what we are required to do, by law. I don't know that it's "law" that you

give up your weapon, so much as a courtesy to the officer, and a good way to avoid

getting shot

[BadTrainDriver]

Assuming you were not in the act of committing a crime, and just minding your own business...why would a officer demand your pistol, or even be talking to you (know you are carrying ((unless open carrying)))?

If you're going to argue, at least read what i typed/linked, so you can have a valid argument.

[Tonik]

I call shenanigans. Its more like a camel toe instead of a bulge... So I've heard.

Wait, you and other OR members are discussing the size of my member?

[r1crusher]

Vagina to be exact...but it didn't last long.

[SWing'R]

Assuming you were not in the act of committing a crime, and just minding your own business...why would a officer demand your pistol, or even be talking to you (know you are carrying ((unless open carrying)))?

If you're going to argue, at least read what i typed/linked, so you can have a valid argument.

Yes, I mean during open carry, cause yes, that is the only time they would

know and be asking for ID and your weapon. But like I said, I know when

it came down to it I wouldn't argue with an officer and I'd hand it over but

I'm just interested in knowing what they can/can not actually ask you to do

and/or force you to do. Watching the videos on youtube are quite

enlightening, very interesting to see officers schooled on the street by

citizens legally carrying. I could never do that though , after all I don't

have Brass Balls. <let's see who gets that one>

[chevysoldier]

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/5817

[chevysoldier]

Question for the experts here.

Assuming a person has their CHL' date=' I have a question regarding

carrying fully concealed vs open, and partially concealed I guess.[/quote']

If you are open carrying, does the weapon need to remain 100% in full

view at all times? What I mean is say you are wearing a side hip holster

on your belt and normally it is completely exposed and visible. Now wearing

the same holster you throw a jacket on which conceals it for the most part,

unless the jacket is unzipped and someone can see it as you move around.

Is that permissible? Or does it need to be 100% concealed?

If you don't have a CHL then yes it needs to remain 100% visible (firearm and holster) There have been reports of people using the older style flap holster, like old military style, that cover the top of the gun. People have gotten charged with concealed carry. If you have a CHL, it can be 100% in view, partial in view or totally concealed. If you just dangle a jacket over the gun, unzipped in front and sometimes the gun is visible if someone looks right at it, that's going to be considered concealed.

Also, I have a IWB holster that actually fits nicely clipped in my front

pocket but when the gun is put in it it is not fully in the pocket, but the

top and handle are visible. This is kinda like a mix of concealed and open

since its partially concealed but visible. Is it legal to carry like that??

I would guess that would fall into the concealed category, speaking from a LEO stand point. By handle you mean grip right? If it's just partial visible, it's concealed. If the entire grip is out of your pocket, it MIGHT be able to be considered open carried but I wouldn't test that. Not to mention it's probably not a very secure way to carry it. Now an officer may charge you with CC but the prosecutor may drop those charges later.

Keep in mind, if you don't have a CHL and you open carry, you cannot open carry in a car. It is then considered concealed. This also includes motorcycles. If you open carry on a bike, by definition that is a motor vehicle and a CHL is needed.

While CC'ing, you must carry your CHL and (I'm 99% sure ) another ID as required by the state of Ohio. If asked, those must be presented to the officer during a stop. Now you are not required to carry your OL (operator's license) when driving but you must give enough information to properly ID yourself to a LEO, ie SSN or name and DOB. There is nothing I'm aware of stating you must carry ID while OC'ing, but you must give enough information to ID yourself.

Yes an officer can take possession of your firearm on a stop. Yes you are required to do it. Yes is must be returned in the same condition as it was received at the end of the encounter unless it is being seized as evidence. This is going to be upheld by case law for officer safety.

Assuming you were not in the act of committing a crime, and just minding your own business...why would a officer demand your pistol, or even be talking to you (know you are carrying ((unless open carrying)))?

If you're going to argue, at least read what i typed/linked, so you can have a valid argument.

Because by current Ohio law, you are required to inform the officer you have a CHL and currently carrying. It is then at the discretion of the officer if they wish to secure that weapon until the end of the stop, allowed to do so for officer safety.

My personal views are that if a person has a CHL, they have gone through background checks and some kind of training and therefore aren't a criminal. I also don't want nervous nelly trying to remove his gun for me and then have a negligent discharge.

If you do OC, know where you aren't allowed to. If you are asked to leave the premises, you must comply. Don't touch it with your hand to make sure it's still there. If anything, get used to positive control by using your forearm or elbow to cover the top of the gun. Same thing you see officers do.

Not all officers know the carry laws. There were memo's sent out to every Ohio agency explaining them so they are better now than 2 years ago. But you still may run into those that don't. Just comply with their orders. It's easier to fight in court than to fight on the side of the road.

And yes even if you have a CHL, you can still open carry without having the CHL on you, with some limitations. I know people that only have their CHL so they can carry in a car, they always carry OWB.

[BDBGoalie]

+1 to all chevy posted.

If the weapon is even slightly concealed(See shirt flap covering the top 1/4 of the OWB holster), you better have a CHL.

I've been carrying for years now, and here's a few things I've learned.

• That bulge you see as huge in the mirror most people won't even notice. (Not saying printing isn't something to avoid though)
  
• Train yourself to safely carry your weapon in Condition 1 (Or equivalent).
  
• A good double walled weapon specific belt helps immensely in keeping the weapon from shifting.
  
• A good holster is a near requirement for comfortable and stable carry.
  
• You adjust your wardrobe for your weapon and it's concealment. Not for your comfort.
  
• If a bit of the holster or weapon is exposed, gently cover it back up. Those that will take note of the short bit of exposure aren't the ones that call the police (Although your next few actions may be scrutinized). Proper gear and wardrobe will alleviate this issue.
  

Even if the cop is dead wrong, refusing to surrender your weapon will get you shot, and he will be found justified in his actions. Don't whip the weapon out haphazardly and try and show how fast your can drop the mag and rack to clear it. Again, you'll get shot. Just follow his instructions and record the interaction if anything seems amiss.

The real answer is to the OC questions is to carry concealed at all times. There is no place I know of that you can carry openly that doesn't allow CC. The transport laws make loaded weapons without a CHL annoying at best in vehicles.

OC gives you about a .2 -.5 second advantage in draw time. Everything else is negatives.

• You draw attention to yourself.
  
• You reveal what you are armed with.
  
• You make yourself a target due to being a threat to them.
  
• You take away your element of surprise in an encounter.
  

I see OC as being a "Look at me carrying around a pistol for everyone to see. Everyone look at me." It usually attracts exactly that kind of attention as well. (Especially the morons that carry openly with a drop holster strapped to their leg.) The overt and attention grabbing nature of it really takes away a lot of benefits of carrying a weapon.

Edited March 25, 2013 by BDBGoalie