YSR_Racer_99 Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) Edited January 28, 2014 by YSR_Racer_99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidgetTodd Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Liberty civil defense ammo I like better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4DAIVI PAI2K5 Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Not a fan of over penetration... That's what she said. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnG Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Their FAQ claims zero failures to feed or jams, my first concern when I saw the profile... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CleaveTheGreat Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 If you have to shoot someone and that is what you're carrying, good luck convincing a jury that you're a responsible gun owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Butters Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Why not? Better than carrying FMJs like most derps do.... These are pretty guaranteed to not over penetrate, and they're effective at stopping the threat (in theory, haven't seen any legit tests on them besides their marketing) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CleaveTheGreat Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) Why not? Better than carrying FMJs like most derps do.... These are pretty guaranteed to not over penetrate, and they're effective at stopping the threat (in theory, haven't seen any legit tests on them besides their marketing) Exactly my point:No legit tests with them. Everything I've seen about them has been hype from the manufacturer about how much kinetic energy they deliver. Too much kinetic energy = too much penetration. Add that to the fact that they split up into multiple projectiles which further decreases your ability to control where they go. Overpenetration and a lack of control aren't things I look for in a self defense round. But hey they do a good job with marketing. All those derps who carry FMJs will now start carrying these. Edited January 28, 2014 by CleaveTheGreat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigerpaw Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Funny vid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimTheAzn Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 I carry Federal currently. That ammo looks meh. Sent from my iPhone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottb Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 It looks like I would shred my thumb when loading the magazine with these. I think it would appear better ( in media and the court) in the event you had to protect yourself, if the bullet you used was called "Defense" insteadof a bullet called " RIP" Just don't know enough about this new round yet.Also a Liberty Civil Defense carrier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedytriple Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 Is liberty civil defense different then their halo point? If not that stuff from the vids i have seen way over penetrates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagr Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 (edited) If you have to shoot someone and that is what you're carrying, good luck convincing a jury that you're a responsible gun owner.No offense Cleve and not attacking you but where does this come from? I keep hearing people say it? There are self defense shootings everyday and I've yet to hear anything about a specific round having anything to do with making or breaking the justification for use of deadly force?Also please define over-penetration Edited January 29, 2014 by jagr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Butters Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 (edited) i carry these ...Double Tap TAC-XP solid coppers....wont be switching as long as theyre available Edited January 29, 2014 by Steve Butters 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4DAIVI PAI2K5 Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 No offense Cleve and not attacking you but where does this come from?I keep hearing people say it? There are self defense shootings everyday and I've yet to hear anything about a specific round having anything to do with making or breaking the justification for use of deadly force?Also please define over-penetrationOver penetration would be the round exit out of the bad guy and hitting someone else. I want the round to dump its energy in the perp and stop with in them. This RIP round goes clear through that gel. It could be the make up the gel isn't very dense for marketing but thats not something I want to see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YSR_Racer_99 Posted January 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 No offense Cleve and not attacking you but where does this come from?I keep hearing people say it? There are self defense shootings everyday and I've yet to hear anything about a specific round having anything to do with making or breaking the justification for use of deadly force?Also please define over-penetration This. I need some edumacation, because I don't understand comments like this. If I'm threatened and have to shoot someone, why does it reflect poorly on my defense if I'm carrying "an overly aggressive" round? And how does one determine "overly aggressive"? I target round may go through the person, and a defense round will hopefully expand within them (as intended). Which is "too aggressive"? And if someone is coming at me, why does it matter. No matter what round I'm using, my intent/ hope is to stop him before he gets to me. I'm not arguing either, but I am curious/ confused.Thx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zx3vfr Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 Because it's advertised as RIP, intention to kill rather than immobilizing a threat.When you put a round called RIP in your gun, an overZealous DA in a liberal city will do their very best to and you to prison for life based on the fact you had an intent to kill. If you use regular loads that are not labeled as defensive thug killer, you are PROTECTING yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CleaveTheGreat Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 No offense Cleve and not attacking you but where does this come from?I keep hearing people say it? There are self defense shootings everyday and I've yet to hear anything about a specific round having anything to do with making or breaking the justification for use of deadly force?Also please define over-penetration The 2 posts I quote below more or less explain my thoughts. I can't put a specific number on how many inches of penetration is too many as it would depend on the target. But based on what the RIP round does to the gel in the video, I wouldn't want to carry it - too much risk of one of the fragments hitting something I don't want it to. As far the specific round having anything to do with the justification for self defense, I agree that it should not. However when facing a jury of my peers who may be uninformed when it comes to firearms, ammunition and self defense, I'd rather not leave anything to chance. Over penetration would be the round exit out of the bad guy and hitting someone else. I want the round to dump its energy in the perp and stop with in them. This RIP round goes clear through that gel. It could be the make up the gel isn't very dense for marketing but thats not something I want to see Because it's advertised as RIP, intention to kill rather than immobilizing a threat.When you put a round called RIP in your gun, an overZealous DA in a liberal city will do their very best to and you to prison for life based on the fact you had an intent to kill.If you use regular loads that are not labeled as defensive thug killer, you are PROTECTING yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagr Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Parks and Cleve. Check the Glock page as I dumped a ton of penetration knowledge on there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CleaveTheGreat Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) Parks and Cleve. Check the Glock page as I dumped a ton of penetration knowledge on there. You'll get plenty of penetration knowledge next time I see you. And I'll go check out the page. Edited January 30, 2014 by CleaveTheGreat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagr Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 As for everyone else the discussion about penetration and defending yourself against a dickhead DA for your round choice has been driving me nuts. Lots of people will say what ZX3vfr touched on. If it has a scary name you must be a crazed killer vigilante. Others will tell you the opposite and most of those of both opinions will tell you to carry what LEOs carry. As you can mirror their justifications. So I looked to the FBI who have been analyzing rounds and making reccomendations on performance since before most of you were born. Some abide by it some hate it. I will state ahead of time we all will have arguing opinions though I doubt any of us are qualified to truly dismiss it all together.Let us begin with the words of FBI Agent Urey Patrick"Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet."You can read his work here. Handgun wounding factors and effectiveness. http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdfIn it you will find all the explanation of handgun wounding you can handle. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Butters Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Saw this pic on fb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagr Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Part 2. The edge is the bigger bullet. We've come a long way achieving that without going to a .357 Take the 9mm or .40 Federal HST. That's some impressive expansion and still makes 12" penetration. Let's talk penetration. We all like penetration right? The test requires the round do many magical things all at once. I will highlight just a few. 12" penetration in bare gelatin. Penetration through various obstacles (drywall, sheet metal, windshields etc) while maintains mass and still penetrating 12" of gelatin. They want this because you won't always have an optimal frontal A zone shot. The critical wounding components for handgun ammunition, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavity. The bullet must penetrate sufficiently to pass through vital organs and be able to do so from less than optimal angles. For example, a shot from the side through an arm must penetrate at least 10-12 inches to pass through the heart. A bullet fired from the front through the abdomen must penetrate about 7 inches in a slender adult just to reach the major blood vessels in the back of the abdominal cavity. Penetration must be sufficiently deep to reach and pass through vital organs, and the permanent cavity must be large enough to maximize tissue destruction and consequent hemorrhaging.It's about wound channels. Large deep wound channels through blood bearing vitals. I admit I was bamboozled by Liberty but all this "justifying use of a round in a court" sent me back looking at what I've carried (Liberty of late, Golden Sabers before) and quite frankly Im not pleased with my current choice. Nor do I see a big difference between Liberty and G2 RIP other than penetration. So the rule is carry what LEO carries right?It's easier to justify use right? so what do they use? Rangers, Golden Sabres, Critical Duty and Fed HST, etc. come up frequently in that search. What do they have in common? HOLLOW POINTS AND THE FBI TESTS. What does not come up:fragmenting reduced penetration rounds. A sampling of 9mm meeting the criteria: Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1) Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)Remington Golden Saber 124 gr +P JHP bonded (GSB9MMD)Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)See a pattern? Many more round/caliber combos pass the test. Please investigate on your own. Concerning Liberty I was told that:"The NTOA gave liberty their highest rating which makes it easy to justify in court why I carry it."I believe the source but have not researched it myself. In the end you must decide for yourself what you carry and why. Whatever the choice train with it and know what it will do. Read reviews. Watch tests. The most careless thing you can do is buy a box of rounds and just fill a mag and never shoot it. Buy 2 boxes. Shoot one and see how it acts. Be conscious of the sound, the recoil, the flash in low light. That way you know and won't be surprised when the time comes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigerpaw Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Thanks jagr! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4DAIVI PAI2K5 Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Ranger! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad324 Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Libtards are to blame for there even being the discussion of whether or not the name of the ammo means intent to kill vs self defense 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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