Straight-walled cartridge rifles approved for hunting deer in Ohio

[Gump]

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/straight-walled-cartridge-rifles-approved-hunting-white-tailed-deer-ohio

Not sure how I feel about it. .38 special should not be allowed.

The bag limits need to lower, but then they elongated the hunting period.

[bowdog]

Yup, also took Bobcats off the endangered list.

[smccrory]

Not sure how I feel about it. .38 special should not be allowed.

 

I can't read the article from work, but if that's the case, it's wrong IMHO.  Hunting is one thing, but inadequate power to establish a quick, clean kill is no less than inhumane.

[Tpoppa]

A .38 from a rifle barrel should be ok at close distances. 

Not from a revolver though.

[Tonik]

I'll be at IP tomorrow at 3 if anyone wants me to shoot then a few times with my 38 to see how it goes.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Tonik

[Gump]

I can't read the article from work, but if that's the case, it's wrong IMHO. Hunting is one thing, but inadequate power to establish a quick, clean kill is no less than inhumane.

Agree. 30/30 blows away a .38 special or even the .357 mag as far as knockdown energy even from rifle barrels. Stupid. I'd never think about using a .45 ACP for deer either. Stupid

Edited April 11, 2014 by Gump

[ReconRat]

Should have applied pistol power limits. 357mag and up.

[Gump]

Should have applied pistol power limits. 357mag and up.

Yes. Its so stupid, I wrote DNR a letter requesting the reasoning behind their decision.

[mango_sv]

The reasoning behind it is to allow more hunters the ability to hunt. It always blows my mind to hear people complaining about "knockdown power". I hunt with crop damage permits yearly and can shoot with anything I want, even at night. I've blasted deer at 200 yds with my 223 and it never took another step. Indiana has been doing pistol calibers for years. Let me ask you this - you would trust 9mm, 40s&w, or 45 ACP with your life in a CCW event, why now all the sudden will that same kind of round not kill a deer?

[smccrory]

The reasoning behind it is to allow more hunters the ability to hunt. It always blows my mind to hear people complaining about "knockdown power". I hunt with crop damage permits yearly and can shoot with anything I want, even at night. I've blasted deer at 200 yds with my 223 and it never took another step. Indiana has been doing pistol calibers for years. Let me ask you this - you would trust 9mm, 40s&w, or 45 ACP with your life in a CCW event, why now all the sudden will that same kind of round not kill a deer?

I rarely get to engage a deer at 7 yards while my pistol's muzzle energy is still strong at the relatively low velocity of a larger bullet shedding power logarithmically over distance and time.

[mango_sv]

I engage deer at low yardage all the time, it's called bow hunting...... Once again, please tell me why a pistol caliber won't kill a deer.....

Edited April 11, 2014 by mango_sv

[smccrory]

I never said it wouldn't kill a dear, I said that low-energy ammo is inhumane.

[Steve Butters]

At my ex's place, I had a large buck confront me and was making threatening gestures while I was tending to their horse... Not sure if I just started it or what but it had its head lowered and was kicking it's front legs against the ground... Pulled out a 40 subcompact with speer gold dots in it (bonded jhp) and fired at it once, hit square in the chest (from the front, he was facing me)... Fucking deer took off never to be seen again... I was within 15yds... I don't feel like a 38 would have been any better than my 40

[Steve Butters]

On that note... I also shot a raccoon with the same gun because it was in the chicken coop trying to snatch a chicken.. Took 2 shots before the thing even hit the ground.. Third shot to put it out of its misery didn't even finish it right away... It's remarkable how much fight animals have in them

[Gump]

I engage deer at low yardage all the time, it's called bow hunting...... Once again, please tell me why a pistol caliber won't kill a deer.....

Sure, it will kill but it will take longer. Now we have more tards hunting and they're the ones who apparently, by your explanation, have rifles but not a shotgun. This also will encourage hunters, that suck at hunting already, to take longer shots.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Gump

[Steve Butters]

Gotta agree with Gump... Pistol rounds aren't suited for hunting large game... Plus, why would anyone even want to use Pistol rounds? I'd take a 12g slug over a 9mm any day

[mango_sv]

So why has it worked for years in Indiana? Why do they let you use pistols at all for all these years? As long as you have a pistol with a 5 inch barrel and .357 or larger, you could use it before, so what makes those same rounds out of a rifle all the sudden not capible?

[smccrory]

Gotta agree with Gump... Pistol rounds aren't suited for hunting large game... Plus, why would anyone even want to use Pistol rounds? I'd take a 12g slug over a 9mm any day

 

This is exactly my point as well.  A basic used shotty costs, what, $200-300?  That's cheaper than a handgun and has tons more projectile energy to make short an animal's suffering.  Heck, even a Mosin Nagant 91/30 with a decent barrel can be had for under $150.

 

So why has it worked for years in Indiana? Why do they let you use pistols at all for all these years? As long as you have a pistol with a 5 inch barrel and .357 or larger, you could use it before, so what makes those same rounds out of a rifle all the sudden not capible?

 

Again, it's not about capability.  A staple will kill a deer, <slowly>.  It's about meeting an ethical obligation to minimize suffering when taking an animal's life.  It's one of the most principled things that keeps me sympathetic with (ethical) wildlife management.  To me, bow hunting is on the edge, mainly because it's a long, heavy projectile that slices open a bleed channel and allows an animal to lose consciousness relatively quickly.  Small projectiles like a .38 or 9mm don't create the same physiological damage that a rifle round does.

 

But you don't have to believe me - Google the ballistic charts yourself.  The strausberg tests are also interesting reading, and will support what I'm saying.  Unless you simply don't care about the animal's suffering - in which case we'll never reach consensus.

[mango_sv]

This is exactly my point as well. A basic used shotty costs, what, $200-300? That's cheaper than a handgun and has tons more projectile energy to make short an animal's suffering. Heck, even a Mosin Nagant 91/30 with a decent barrel can be had for under $150.

Again, it's not about capability. A staple will kill a deer, . It's about meeting an ethical obligation to minimize suffering when taking an animal's life. It's one of the most principled things that keeps me sympathetic with (ethical) wildlife management. To me, bow hunting is on the edge, mainly because it's a long, heavy projectile that slices open a bleed channel and allows an animal to lose consciousness relatively quickly. Small projectiles like a .38 or 9mm don't create the same physiological damage that a rifle round does.

But you don't have to believe me - Google the ballistic charts yourself. The strausberg tests are also interesting reading, and will support what I'm saying. Unless you simply don't care about the animal's suffering - in which case we'll never reach consensus.

You can say it's not ethical all you want, it works very effectively. As I stated before, Indiana has done it for YEARS with no ill effect. And once again, WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN ABLE TO USE PISTOL CALIBERS IN PISTOLS, now those same rounds out of a rifle somehow lose their effective power. Why now is it wrong and unethical?

[mango_sv]

Gonna complain about people using 410 slugs also?

[smccrory]

Are you asking if I think a 30-06 is statistically more humane than a .410 slug or a .38 special? Yes, yes I do.

KINETIC ENERGY CALCULATIONS:

In descending order

Projectile Weight Velocity Kinetic Energy

.30-06 Rifle 180 grains 2600 fps 2701 ft. lbs.

.357 magnum Pistol 125 grains 1450 583

Light Spear 2 pounds 73.5 167

Heavy Spear 5 pounds 37 106

Heavy Dart 6 ounces 103 62

Modern Arrow 540 grains 220 58

Light Dart 3 ounces 125 45

Primitive Arrow 500 grains 165 29

[mango_sv]

Are you asking if I think a 30-06 is statistically more humane than a .410 slug or a .38 special? Yes, yes I do.

KINETIC ENERGY CALCULATIONS:

In descending order

Projectile Weight Velocity Kinetic Energy

.30-06 Rifle 180 grains 2600 fps 2701 ft. lbs.

.357 magnum Pistol 125 grains 1450 583

Light Spear 2 pounds 73.5 167

Heavy Spear 5 pounds 37 106

Heavy Dart 6 ounces 103 62

Modern Arrow 540 grains 220 58

Light Dart 3 ounces 125 45

Primitive Arrow 500 grains 165 29

1) Do you see 30-06 on the graph?

2) I don't see 30-06 in the list of usable rounds to hunt (edit: deer) with in Ohio.

If you can't lawfully hunt with it, kinda pointless to talk about it.

Edited April 12, 2014 by mango_sv

[Tonik]

So, how many off you will be in the parking lot at IP tomorrow for our test? Want to make sure I bring enough ammo.

[mango_sv]

So, how many off you will be in the parking lot at IP tomorrow for our test? Want to make sure I bring enough ammo.

If I didn't have to work, I could bring my GF .410 and my buddies 9mm carbine and they can tell us which hurts more. LOL

[smccrory]

Your graph is flawed because of the very reason you state (I thought it was obvious, but I'm glad you typed it) - You don't see any of the classic long-gun rounds on it. You keep wanting to make comparisons with prior handgun caliber hunting privileges, missing that my statement is in comparison with rifle loads. Yes, that means I have an issue with most pistol calibers used on large animals. This excludes the Casul, .44, .45 long colt, all of the 50 calibers, etc. of course.

Look, the 30-06 is a gold standard for deer hunting, as are 12g and 20g slugs. Hunting with FIVE TO SIX TIMES LESS kinetic energy using handgun rounds is, to me, more about the hunter's experience of the kill, than the game's, and that's what I have a problem with. I respect a hunter's quest to practice, practice, practice getting a heart shot or at the very least well-placed lung penetration. I respect a hunter selecting a high-energy projectile to maximize rapid blood loss and unconsciousness. I respect a hunter taking his or her time and selecting the right animal to take.

I do not respect the use of low-energy handgun rounds, sloppy technique or settling for the first animal of the day so they don't get their tootsies cold.