CAR GUYS, STEP UP PLEASE -- ENGINE, MECHANICAL

[JackFlash]

My '06 Subaru, 130k miles, had timing belt changed like I'm supposed to.

Changed plugs and wires, too.  Everything was running fine.  Work was

done about three months ago, so it's all still in warranty.  Water pump

and pulleys were changed while it was all apart.  Tensioner also.  All that

came in a kit.

 

Issue?  I'm cruising at about 65 mph when I sensed I'm losing power.

The speedo dropped to 60, so I gently gave it some juice.  It kicked down

a gear but didn't speed up.  I pulled to the shoulder and before I got

stopped, the engine died.  I had very little steam from under the hood

and absolutely NO indication of overheating. 

 

Opened the hood.  A very small puddle of moisture was on the ground

and steam was from water dropping onto the catalytic converter right

below.

 

Cranked the motor.  Didn't sound right, like no compression.  I'm thinking

the NEW timing belt didn't hold up and now I have a ruined engine.  So,

towed to the shop that did the work.  Luckily, they were fairly close.

 

Pulled the timing cover.  Everything is intact.  Timing marks are lined up,

perfectly.  Ran a scope into the cylinders.  See no damage.  Compression

test,  1 and 2 had 15 lbs. with 3 and 4 having ZERO.  WTF? 

 

Squirted oil into the cylinders and did it again.  Compression improved

-- a little, on all four..  With no indication of overheating, I'm ruling out

blown head gaskets, especially since the heads are well separated, being

a boxer engine.  One head, but not both, without some indication of

overheating.  Radiator was empty when we towed it to the shop, but the

reservoir level was fine. 

 

Where did my compression go?  It's my understanding that if the coil

stopped producing spark, but the injectors continued to perform, fuel can

wash oil from the piston rings and cause loss of compression.

Does this sound right to you?

 

We looked for spark at #1 plug and there was none.  I'm assuming that

there will be none on the other three.  I'll know when they call me today

or tomorrow.

 

Another question.  What is it that tells the coil to fire which cylinder?  Are

there sensors to report the position of the piston or cam so that the correct

plug can be fired at the right time?  There is one coil with all four plug wires

coming from it. 

 

And.....so far, all this work is under warranty.  At what point should I begin

to be charged for labor/parts.  They did change the plug wires, so they

were in that area of possible failure.  Is it possible that newer wires, with

less resistance, caused failure of a aged and weak coil?

 

Comments?  Questions?  Help?  Advice?  Offers of money?

 

Thanks folks.

 

.

 

[Gixxus Christ!]

No coolant in rad points to water pump. When they fail they piss all the fluid out of the weep hole. Your temp sensor measures coolant temp; no coolant=nothing to sense. Zero compression on 3&4 points to either head gasket failure or valve timing/failure. Blown head gasket could also be responsible for coolant loss; half your engine essentially becomes a water pump and the exhaust is the outlet. No spark could be from fouling due to burning a radiator worth of coolant. I'd check for spark with a known good plug.

[JackFlash]

No coolant in rad points to water pump. When they fail they piss all the fluid out of the weep hole. Your temp sensor measures coolant temp; no coolant=nothing to sense. Zero compression on 3&4 points to either head gasket failure or valve timing/failure. Blown head gasket could also be responsible for coolant loss; half your engine essentially becomes a water pump and the exhaust is the outlet. No spark could be from fouling due to burning a radiator worth of coolant. I'd check for spark with a known good plug.

 

Weep hole?  That makes sense.  Perhaps the water pump took a shit,

even though it was new.

 

Heads are separated (boxer engine).  Timing is spot on.  Pulling valve

covers to observe proper function, just for fun.  One screw is giving us

the shits, right above the frame on the right rear.  Soaking it with stuff.

Thought about teasing it with some heat, but they are afraid of catching

fire to the car.

 

Plugs are good.  NEW.

 

Thanks, Sam.  More?

 

.

[Gixxus Christ!]

Hard to diagnose when several systems have issues like this. I assume 3&4 are on the same bank? So they share a head gasket? If that's the case I'd look there first...refill the rad, put one at tdc, plug air hose into spark plug hole and see if your radiator bubbles, repeat for other cyl. I guess ring wash is a possibility for your lack of conpression, but it seems like it would have SOME. Zero compression usually means major mechanical failure or gasket failure. I know you just replaced the plugs, but did you try a brand new just opened today plug? How about no plug, just the wire to block?

[JackFlash]

1. Right front
2. Left front
3. Right rear
4. Left rear

No shared head gasket between 3 & 4.

It had about 15 lbs. on 1 & 2, but we got

them up to 70 & 35 with a squirt of oil.

 

I was afraid to go "wire to block" for fear

of blowing a pricey electronic item.  My

knowledge is "old school" and weak on

the modern stuff.

 

Will a filling of the radiator and block

drain from the water pump weep hole

without the engine running?  I like the

idea of the water pump being the problem.

That will be covered by warranty.  I've

paid enough for the total work I had done

on the car (brakes, catalytic converter,

both front axles, timing belt, etc., rotors).

 

Radiator bubbles.  Great idea.  I knew

there had to be an easy way to check

head gaskets.  I owe you some beers.

 

I'll bounce these ideas off the shop guys

and hopefully they will find them useful.

Right now the radiator is still out. 

 

New plugs.  Gotta get a healthy spark.

 

I'm really thinking water pump or coil.

 

Thanks again, and again, and again.

 

.

[BadTrainDriver]

I'm with CSC, it's the head gaskets.

Here's a good read about them.

 

http://allwheeldriveauto.com/subaru-head-gaskets-problems-explained-part-ii/

[JackFlash]

I'm with CSC, it's the head gaskets.

Here's a good read about them.

 

http://allwheeldriveauto.com/subaru-head-gaskets-problems-explained-part-ii/

 

Thanks.  Great article.  I hope whatever it is doesn't end up costing me much.

That's my main concern for now.

 

.

[2talltim]

dont know much about these engines or imports for that matter, but if it were a domestic v6 or 4 i would point to the intake manifold gasket

Edited July 30, 2014 by 2talltim

[Pokey]

dont know much about these engines or imports for that matter, but if it were a domestic v6 or 4 i would point to the intake manifold gasket

 

Yeah you like driving POS GMC products.

[2talltim]

Yeah you like driving POS GMC products.

It's a country Thang and I like to work on my own stuff

[zx3vfr]

I've seen subies blow both headgaskets/leaks eacpeicially with over 100k when coolant has never been changed the it gets new coolant and it cleans away all the gunk and you all of a sudden have a leak

[JackFlash]

I've seen subies blow both headgaskets/leaks eacpeicially

with over 100k when coolant has never been changed the it

gets new coolant and it cleans away all the gunk and you all

of a sudden have a leak

 

The coolant gets changed every two to three years.

Shouldn't be too much gunk.  I'm wondering about the

electro effect of the coolant conducting electricity.  It

talks about that in the link that was sent to me.  My

battery is always messy.  I used to stay up on that stuff.

 

.

[Gixxus Christ!]

Water pump won't piss out the weep hole unless it's spinning.

Wire to block won't hurt anything. The system is designed to short to ground by making a spark.

Odd that both rear cylinders were low on compression.....and that a squirting of oil brought 1 and 2 up. It's not natural for oil to be above the piston. I can see how having oil in there could force the cyl to make more compression by creating a hydro seal but the motor shouldn't need it. Starting to sound fishy....like a head issue....even if the marks line up on the belt and cogs outside the head, there's still either a chain or gear drive transferring the motion from each external cog to the two cams inside the head...I'd like to see inside the valve covers, make sure the cams actually jive with the timing marks outside the motor.

I accept beers graciously. Hope you can get it sorted out bud.

[zx3vfr]

100% sure the timing is right? 1 tooth off can cause all sorts of problems.

Edited July 31, 2014 by zx3vfr

[BadTrainDriver]

If timing was off, even a tooth, it wouldn't have run for three months...or at least not very well.

[Gixxus Christ!]

(Nods approvingly)

[jporter12]

What Pauly said.  Other than that, I don't do "internet diagnosis" much, but it sure sounds like the valves aren't opening.  Are the cam and cran pulleys turning when you crank the engine over with the starter?  Beyond that, I can't guess any more without seeing it.

[JackFlash]

Water pump won't piss out the weep hole unless it's spinning.

.....

Odd that both rear cylinders were low on compression...

 

That's why I'm leaning on the idea that unburned fuel washed

oil from sealing the rings, in the event that the spark stopped.

 

.....and that a squirting of oil brought 1 and 2 up. It's not natural for oil to be above the piston. I can see how having oil in there could force the cyl to make more compression by creating a hydro seal but the motor shouldn't need it.

 

Being a boxer engine, with horizontal cylinders, I'm wondering if 

if that was a factor in not having oil sealing the rings.

 

Starting to sound fishy....like a head issue....even if the marks line up on the belt and cogs outside the head, there's still either a chain or gear drive transferring the motion from each external cog to the two cams inside the head...

 

It's gear driven straight from the crank, via timing belt, to the cam gears.

I watched it all rotate perfectly.

 

I'd like to see inside the valve covers, make sure the cams actually jive with the timing marks outside the motor.

 

Once that last screw gets removed, we can do just that.

I accept beers graciously. Hope you can get it sorted out bud.

 

No worries.

 

 

The water under your converter was probably a/c condensation.

 

Not in this case.  I know where that drips from.  This was more,

and just across the bottom of the front, as if it all came out the

water pump before I got stopped, and what was left just dripped

into a narrow long line.

 

Also, unless your heads are removed from the block, there is no way to have zero compression in the chamber. It's just not possible, without serious engine damage. Someone doesn't know what they're doing. Where is the car, now? Who did the service? Tell me you took it to the Subaru shop, or at least to someone that works on Subaru with relative frequency.

 

I took it straight back to where the timing belt warranty was

active.  I wasn't there when they measured zero compression.

But, after my arrival, we restored some compression.

If you lost power, but didn't overheat, you may have jumped time. Did they install OEM Subaru parts? I still find it very suspicious that your engine has so little compression. They're either incompetent, or you're absolutely fucked.

 

Timing is good.  No internal cylinder damage, and until we remove

both valve covers, I'm assuming no valve damage.  We ran a camera

into each cylinder and as clean as they are, I'm thinking they were

washed well, and steam cleaned with fuel or water.

 

 

...it sure sounds like the valves aren't opening.  Are the cam and crank pulleys turning when you crank the engine over with the starter? 

 

I was thinking that also.  The timing belt is good.  I personally checked it

and it's still in it's new condition from three months ago when they put

it in.  Everything turns as designed.  I watched it while being cranked.

Timing marks line up perfectly.

[zx3vfr]

If timing was off, even a tooth, it wouldn't have run for three months...or at least not very well.

could've jumped or belt could've stretched.

[Gixxus Christ!]

UUpdate?

[JackFlash]

UUpdate?

 

Nothing yet.  I'll know more, Monday and update then.

Thanks for asking, Sam.

 

.

[Scruit]

Update?

[JackFlash]

Today was my first day back to work after a two week vacation,

and seeing how the shop is closer to work than to home, I waited

until today to stop in after work and check on the car.

 

We did the "air into the cylinder" test.  I personally heard gurgling

when I had my ear up to the radiator opening.  So, that means

head gaskets on both banks.  So, the motor must come out.

 

Thanks to Bad Train Driver for the link.  I emailed it to the shop

and they were impressed.  We all learned something. 

 

Thanks to everyone else, especially Sam, as well.  All ideas are

good places to start.  I feared head gaskets may be an issue,

but of course hoped it wasn't the case.

 

I'll know more next week.  So far, I'm lead to believe that everything

is still covered by warranty.  I sure hope so, as I don't have a lot of

cash to throw around.  I'm a po' boy just lucky enough to be able

to afford a motorcycle, let alone any major vehicle repairs.

 

I'll post more as it comes.

 

.

[snot]

Good luck Jack. For your sake I do hope warranty covers the cost.

[Gixxus Christ!]

Good luck man, wish it had been something easier to fix.