Michael Brown shooting

[Tpoppa]

Incorrect^^^^^^ in the context you are using it. Did you not read the PM I sent you. But since you really want to know I'm a federal agent. So not a cop but plenty of experience as a Law Enforcement Officer at the state and federal level. So again since you want to try to call me out what is your law enforcement experience? I'm using first hand experience and facts to base my decisions and beliefs. What are you using?   

 

 

 

In your capacity as an agent were you working inside of local departments?  Are federal agents typically trusted by local cops enough to be in their inner circle?

 

btw, pretty cool of you to post something from a PM.

[Tpoppa]

Stop being so obtuse.  Every cop on the world knows that the only way it's justifiable to kill someone is if they believe that person might harm them or someone else.

 

So maybe the cop isn't "trained" in what to say in court, but they're sure as hell trained in when it's ok to shoot someone and when it isn't.

 

That sort of makes it so that you don't HAVE to coach them on what to say in court.  If you've killed someone, then OF COURSE you're gonna say the 1 thing in court that you've specifically been trained on that would've made it OK to kill that person.

Well said.

[cOoTeR]

In your capacity as an agent were you working inside of local departments?  Are federal agents typically trusted by local cops enough to be in their inner circle?

 

btw, pretty cool of you to post something from a PM.

Yes and as a part of my job I find people breaking laws and arrest them. Sometimes having to use force while doing that. So yes I do police work but unlike a cop I don't write tickets or citations. Either the person gets arrested and I charge them with a crime then it goes to court or they don't get anything. But I do get called to assist local and state officers in carrying out their duties. Before I got my federal job I worked in law enforcement at the state level. So you could say in not just in the "inner circle" I'm part of it.

I wasn't going to put any of our private message discussion out here until after you decided to bring it out here. After in the private message I told you I completed two law enforcement academies you posted out here asking if I was a cop.

[cOoTeR]

Stop being so obtuse.  Every cop on the world knows that the only way it's justifiable to kill someone is if they believe that person might harm them or someone else.

 

So maybe the cop isn't "trained" in what to say in court, but they're sure as hell trained in when it's ok to shoot someone and when it isn't.

 

That sort of makes it so that you don't HAVE to coach them on what to say in court.  If you've killed someone, then OF COURSE you're gonna say the 1 thing in court that you've specifically been trained on that would've made it OK to kill that person.

Or maybe they actually did fear for their life. You just re-worded what I've already said and addressed to twist it to your cop hating agenda.

Cops are not trained to say they feared for their life after using force. They are trained to NOT use deadly force unless they have a reason to fear for their life or someone else's life because that is when deadly force is necessary. So of course they are going to say that's why the used deadly force, because that actually is the reason they used deadly force. If you're stopped at an intersection and the light turns green and you get hit by someone running the red light after you go you are going to have the same answer as anyone else who's ever gone through a green light if asked. If asked why you entered the intersection you're response would be something along the lines of because the light was green. The scenario is not the same but you can see my point. Any relevant response will be similar to any other person because everyone is taught to wait until the light is green before entering the intersection. They aren't taught to give the same answer is just that the answer to the question is the same.

[Tpoppa]

Yep, cops are an honest bunch.  Especially NY's finest...what's that? beatings, intimidation, corruption, brutality, lying under oath...testilying?  What is testilying?

 

https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Testilying.html

 

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports98/police/uspo100.htm

 

The Mollen Commission—set up to look into reports of police corruption in the New York Police Department—described the pervasive nature of police perjury in its 1994 report. It stated that the practice of police falsification in connection with arrests is so common in certain precincts that police themselves call it “testilying.” According to the commission, officers tell a litany of manufactured tales. When officers unlawfully stop and search a vehicle because they believe it contains drugs or guns, they sometimes falsely claim in police reports and under oath that the car ran a red light (or committed some other traffic violation) and that they subsequently saw contraband in the car in plain view. To conceal an unlawful search of an individual who officers believe is carrying drugs or a gun, officers occasionally falsely assert that they saw a bulge in the person's pocket or saw drugs and money changing hands.

 

It is extremely difficult to prove perjury cases against police because of the informal rule among police officers that forbids one police officer to testify against another. The Christopher Commission, which investigated the police beating of Rodney King in Los Angeles, found this tendency of police to back up fellow officers to be an obstacle in its investigation.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Tpoppa

[cOoTeR]

Yep, cops are an honest bunch.  Especially NY finest...what's that beatings, intimidation, corruption, brutality, lying under oath...testilying...what is testilying?

 

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports98/police/uspo100.htm

 

The Mollen Commission—set up to look into reports of police corruption in the New York Police Department—described the pervasive nature of police perjury in its 1994 report. It stated that the practice of police falsification in connection with arrests is so common in certain precincts that police themselves call it “testilying.” According to the commission, officers tell a litany of manufactured tales. When officers unlawfully stop and search a vehicle because they believe it contains drugs or guns, they sometimes falsely claim in police reports and under oath that the car ran a red light (or committed some other traffic violation) and that they subsequently saw contraband in the car in plain view. To conceal an unlawful search of an individual who officers believe is carrying drugs or a gun, officers occasionally falsely assert that they saw a bulge in the person's pocket or saw drugs and money changing hands.

 

It is extremely difficult to prove perjury cases against police because of the informal rule among police officers that forbids one police officer to testify against another. The Christopher Commission, which investigated the police beating of Rodney King in Los Angeles, found this tendency of police to back up fellow officers to be an obstacle in its investigation.

So that makes all cops dishonest?

[Tpoppa]

So that makes all cops dishonest?

 

No, as I've already stated like 5 times in this thread.  But it's a real problem in law enforcement, and even an accepted part of the job for some departments.  

 

Some departments are far more professional than others.  The FPD department for example (you know the one that Wilson was a member) displayed that they were more than willing to take shortcuts and violate civil rights when dealing with peaceful protesters long before the riot started or before the indictment results were read.

 

To be clear, I am saying that I strongly suspect that Wilson perjured himself under oath.  Also, I strongly suspect that he and his fellow officers, who were the ones in control of collecting physical evidence after the shooting, did so in a way to support their training of how to justify a shooting.    

 

Wilson is clear of any legal consequences.  However, he now has to live in hiding for the foreseeable future.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Tpoppa

[Tigerpaw]

An adult committed a violent robbery, then assaulted a police officer. He did not immediately surrender at the cruiser.  FACTS everyone agrees on.   

 

What do people think the outcome should have been?

 

There are plenty of hate crimes.  There are plenty of cases of police abusing their power.  This is neither. 

 

Stop perpetuating this media shitstorm.  

[Tpoppa]

 FACTS everyone agrees on.   

 

Thanks, but you're about 2 weeks late.  I am well aware of the decision not to indict.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Tpoppa

[Tigerpaw]

Then please enlighten me as to why there are protests across the country?  And why is Wilson living in hiding?

 

Also, you seem to be forgetting the eye witness testimonies to the contrary.

 

As far as protests across the country...it depends on who you ask.  I believe the protests are directly related to how the Michael Brown shooting is being portrayed.  I believe many protesters feel he was a young minority that got shot for that fact alone.  Others say it is to protest perceived "widespread police abuse of power".  I think these folks are the types to protest anything at anytime, cuz it's something to do.

 

Wilson is in hiding, because there is a lot of hate for him.

 

What about the testimonies that back it up?  Are the testimonies unfaltering from a trustworthy source?  Eye witness stories are NEVER 100% accurate.  Not for a car wreck.  Not for a shooting.  Physical evidence should corroborate a testimony.  

[cOoTeR]

No, as I've already stated like 5 times in this thread.  But it's a real problem in law enforcement, and even an accepted part of the job for some departments.  

 

Some departments are far more professional than others.  The FPD department for example (you know the one that Wilson was a member) displayed that they were more than willing to take shortcuts and violate civil rights when dealing with peaceful protesters long before the riot started or before the indictment results were read.

 

To be clear, I am saying that I strongly suspect that Wilson perjured himself under oath.  Also, I strongly suspect that he and his fellow officers, who were the ones in control of collecting physical evidence after the shooting, did so in a way to support their training of how to justify a shooting.    

 

Wilson is clear of any legal consequences.  However, he now has to live in hiding for the foreseeable future.

You do know that it wasn't Ferguson PD that collected the evidence and worked the case right?

What are you basing that he committed perjury on?

[Pokey]

Lets say from here on out that all law enforcement will be black, do you honestly think or believe they would act or react any differently? Law enforcement profile for a reason "we all profile for a reason", the perception of such is very strong and backed by allot of statistics. Want to change the perception of law abiding citizens and law enforcement, it is not rocket science to realize how that can be accomplished. Stop giving law enforcement and people in general a reason to assume, and eventually the perception and distrust will drastically be reduced. It took us a good while to get to this low point we are at, and it will take a long time to dig us out of this race war and aggressive cop FUBAR situation we are in as well.

[magley64]

Regardless of your view on this particular case, there is an unsettling pattern of unarmed young black men being executed by police recently.

[cOoTeR]

Regardless of your view on this particular case, there is an unsettling pattern of unarmed young black men being executed by police recently.

Is this a fact based on statistics or just the perception derived from the recent media coverage.

[Pokey]

Regardless of your view on this particular case, there is an unsettling pattern of unarmed young black men being executed by police recently.

 

Lets not forget the overwhelming number of black on black murders and violence going on in this country EVERYDAY, but of course that just gets shoved under the media rug. Are police becoming more aggressive, I would have to agree that they are overall......but are they totally wrong and unjustified in doing so? I am still a firm believer of "stupid hurts", and more times than not a certain reaction comes from a certain action or actions. We will always have situations were the outcome was not warranted, but that is all the media and this presidency focuses on. And if you don't believe that Al Sharpton is not one of the most racist sons of bitches we have in this country who very much so profits from the turmoil he spreads and revels in, you seriously need your head examined. That Eric Holder is a piece of shit too, he has also done allot of damage with his power trip comments and displays of outright prejudice.

[Tonik]

Is this a fact based on statistics or just the perception derived from the recent media coverage.

 

14 young black men killed in 2012 by police. Considering the massive amount of gang violence and other bullshit in the inner city I would say that is an acceptable number. And more young white men were gunned down the same year. Those numbers are pretty typical for the last 10 years or so.

 

However there certainly are issues that need to be addressed and this Brown asshat is not one of them.  The dude that got choked to death in NY and the little kid that never had a chance to think about what to do before he was murdered by the Cleveland cops need to be addressed, not to mention the two unarmed  crack heads that the Cleveland police pumped 122 bullets into. Then just to make sure they were real dead one Cleveland cop jumped up on the hood of the car and pumped in another 15.

 

Never understood the black movement. They pick the stupidest cases to protest and riot over and ignore the ones where most of America would join them.

[HeavyDuty]

The guy in New York was only getting arrested for illegally selling cigarettes. He was a big man and made the decision to resist arrest and escalate the situation nothing good will ever come from that. What were the cops suppose to do just say never mind and walk away. They were only trying to get him under control so they could take him in. In any situation were a cop is dealing with criminals they can never back down or lose it is not an option. If you choose to resist arrest and escalate things it is on you. It is a shame he died over an f-ing cigarette but he made that choice. Cops have the worst job in this country they have to deal with scum everyday even good citizens treat them like shit. Now these asshats in Washington are trying to make it impossible for them to do their jobs and give criminals like Brown the upper hand.

Edited December 4, 2014 by HeavyDuty

[Gump]

The guy in New York was only getting arrested for illegally selling cigarettes. He was a big man and made the decision to resist arrest and escalate the situation nothing good will ever come from that. What were the cops suppose to do just say never mind and walk away. They were only trying to get him under control so they could take him in. In any situation were a cop is dealing with criminals they can never back down or lose it is not an option. If you choose to resist arrest and escalate things it is on you. It is a shame he died over an f-ing cigarette but he made that choice. Cops have the worst job in this country they have to deal with scum everyday even good citizens treat them like shit. Now these asshats in Washington are trying to make it impossible for them to do their jobs and give criminals like Brown the upper hand.

I agree. The cop let go when he said he couldn't breath. Health issues caused him to die. Who hasn't been in a choke hold or head lock. I'd think there are lots of YouTube vids showing cops putting people in headlocks.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Gump

[Tonik]

The guy in New York was only getting arrested for illegally selling cigarettes. He was a big man and made the decision to resist arrest and escalate the situation nothing good will ever come from that. What were the cops suppose to do just say never mind and walk away. They were only trying to get him under control so they could take him in. In any situation were a cop is dealing with criminals they can never back down or lose it is not an option. If you choose to resist arrest and escalate things it is on you. It is a shame he died over an f-ing cigarette but he made that choice. Cops have the worst job in this country they have to deal with scum everyday even good citizens treat them like shit. Now these asshats in Washington are trying to make it impossible for them to do their jobs and give criminals like Brown the upper hand.

 

 

I agree. The cop let go when he said he couldn't breath. Health issues caused him to die. Who hasn't been in a choke hold or head lock. I'd think there are lots of YouTube vids showing cops putting people in headlocks.

 

 

You guys would be correct if the cop had tazed the guy.  Tasers are allowed in NY.  Choke holds are specifically banned by the NYPD because they are dangerous and it is too hard to judge when to let go. The cop violated the rules and used a banned procedure that caused the death of the criminal.  Involuntary manslaughter is clearly the charge here along with dismissal from the force.

[zx3vfr]

I've been in one choke hold in my life. As a result of being a bystandered of a bar fight that got out of control. Needless to say I was able to grab fork off a table and insert it in the guys thigh. He immediately let go and ran away. I would never want to be in another choke hold. Ever again.

[Josh1234]

Or maybe they actually did fear for their life. You just re-worded what I've already said and addressed to twist it to your cop hating agenda.

 

 

I don't hate cops.  I respect them.  Probably because I was in the military and I know what it means to serve, and I respect others who do.

 

As for hate... I hate injustice, and I think it's very possible that justice was NOT served when the grand jury failed to indict.  

[cOoTeR]

I don't hate cops.  I respect them.  Probably because I was in the military and I know what it means to serve, and I respect others who do.

 

As for hate... I hate injustice, and I think it's very possible that justice was NOT served when the grand jury failed to indict.

What are you basing that opinion on? That they should have indicted him.

[Gump]

You guys would be correct if the cop had tazed the guy. Tasers are allowed in NY. Choke holds are specifically banned by the NYPD because they are dangerous and it is too hard to judge when to let go. The cop violated the rules and used a banned procedure that caused the death of the criminal. Involuntary manslaughter is clearly the charge here along with dismissal from the force.

How do you know the falls didn't knock the wind out of him triggering asthma? Or the cops on top of him with knees in certain places didn't cause it. Perhaps he should of been arrested gently while resisting arrest or offered some flowers first. No headlocks sure, can the guy but him specifically causing the death, no. Why they were trying to arrest him might be an issue. Edited December 4, 2014 by Gump

[madcat6183]

Let's be honest with ourselves regarding the comments about "fearing for your life".  It doesn't take coaching to know to say that if you just shot someone and they died, or didnt die.  Anyone with any type of a brain is only going to shoot at someone if they are in fear for their life to begin with, unless they had bad intentions. 

 

On top of that anyone who has a brain would also say exactly that.  I.e. if I am scared for my life and I have to shoot someone I am not going to yell to everyone, hey I just killed a guy call the police.  I am going to say I stopped a threat and to call 911.  When questioned the only thing I would say before speaking with an attorney is I feared for my life, my families life, or whoever was being threatened.  That would be it. 

 

You don't need training to know to say that.  If you don't I would guess the paperwork and demeanor changes from the police. 

[Tonik]

How do you know the falls didn't knock the wind out of him triggering asthma? Or the cops on top of him with knees in certain places didn't cause it. Perhaps he should of been arrested gently while resisting arrest or offered some flowers first. No headlocks sure, can the guy but him specifically causing the death, no. Why they were trying to arrest him might be an issue.

 

That's why i said a charge of involuntary manslaughter. Present the evidence and let a jury decide.  The dismissal stands either way, he violated a very important rule. And that actually is my biggest beef with how we handle police these days.  They get suspended, fired, written up or whatever and 99.9 percent of the time the union fights it and they get off with back pay. There is zero accountability.