To each their own

[Guest mudbutt]

Reading a recent post about what someone should do with their car got me thinking about the typical answers on this board. I dont understand why a (place econo box here) is such a bad idea.

 

Lets just play this out in a typical scenero. Billy is age 18-25, has a budget of 4k(fairly typical?) and wants a car that he can drive to work and back and make the occational high 13 second pass. Why is it that he is wasting his money on a civic/crx/little red wagon, when at this moderate and realistic of a price and speed goal, any route is achievable? "it isnt rwd" well, seeing as how some people enjoy fwd(Im not kidding and no I dont, just for sake of argument)In things like autoxfwd cars are just as competitive. As for launching, if they are running the same times, what is the difference(as we are on a $$/1/4mile scale here)?

 

All Im saying is a "quick" car for many people can just as easily be done and be reliable with a fwd car. It is different when someone is like "I want a bad ass car that runs 11s, then the scale gets scewed a bit, but Im not referring to those individuals.

 

When someone like Intense builds a 10 second fwd car, you dont hear about how it could have been done for the same money with a turbo buick and had money left over for fuel and tires. So why should the "kid" that wants a moderatly quick car that can realisticly be built for the same money as something with "more pontential", that isnt even going to be utalized get ribbed. Yet the guy that buys the 305 fbody with a money pit of a motor gets the thumbs up?

 

I am in NO WAY anti demestic or "true" sports car. Im not even taking the side of the honda guys but I just dont think everyone wants or needs a car that has the potential to run sub 11 second passes. Hell, there are plenty of supras,mustangs, f bodies, etc on here that are still in the high 13s low 14s and quite content with it.

 

Just my 2 pennies

[Orion]

Yet the guy that buys the 305 fbody with a money pit of a motor gets the thumbs up?

uh, not from me.

 

graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[ridenred27]

why do most go the honda or dsm route for a quick driver when there are many other routes if people were to just do a little research. here is a quick cheap and easy to build car 88-93 ford festiva swap in a 1.6 from a 323 or a mercury capri,add a turbo with 12# of boost and you are looking at a concertive 160hp and a 1800 lb car before a diet. and for handling add 94= aspire struts springs and rear swing arm (which tripples the braking and handling)all this can be done for less than 2000.00 which leaves 1g for paint wheels and a system.

other overlooked cars first gen ford probes gt/mx6 turbo(both cars capable of high 14s in stock form),92-96 escort gt (1.8 twin cam and use the same engine as the miata n/a are good for low 15s)92 and up toyota trecels (still looking for more swap info my nephew is playing with one)any of the dodge turbo cars ( dont really like them but there still cheap and remotely quick) first and second gen caviler z24 swap a 3.4 short block and a gm hot cam port the heads there is another cheap quick car

 

i just get tired of hearing about hondas dsms i think there over priced and are like assholes everybody has one. i dont hate them i know there is a lot of fast ones and some really cool ones here in col. but there is other options if people just looked

[Nitrousbird]

But look how many Hondas are on here and around here w/ motor swaps that can't even go faster than mid-14's. So your theory from the start is tainted, and most of those have more than 4k into them.

 

Why waste money on a freaking econo-box that just isn't a good basis for a performance car. Yes, you can make anything fast, but that doesn't mean it is worth making fast.

 

Of course you hear the "I want a challenge" excuse. Usually by the people who have never had a fast car = making a car w/ potential fast would also be a challenge, and a more realistic one at that.

 

I don't think anyone is giving props for someone picking up a 305 (and honestly, those have more mod potential than a freaking Civic, and can be made pretty quick if the right combo of mods are done). Of course, the car sporting a 305 is also a good performance base to swap a motor into.

 

Economy cars are built for economy. Performance car are built for....do I need to answer that?

[supldys]

what because my car gets 25mpg its an econobox?

is it because its small and light?

is it the geo badge?

my econobox comes with AWD, turbo, and lotus suspension from the factory. and lotus used the "econobox" engine in their lotus elan.

Of course if you're talking about my FWD econobox, its stock bottom end has handled 550hp and still looks new after 1 year of road racing, and 4 years of turbo/nitrous drag racing.

face it, people dont know what is econobox and what isnt, and im talking both sides.

Sorry but a 4door civic or accord is an econobox. leave em be.

but an early 90's hatch is freakin light, and parts are abundant,gut it and turbo it, and you can have a quick little car. I wouldnt say its a sports car, but it'll be fun to drive.

[ridenred27]

but my question is when did a 305 fbody become a preformance car those cars made 145 hp the h.o made 165hp and the tpi cars made 180 or 190. the cars are tanks crap rear ends and were as loose as a main st hooker. hell use the same combo in a s-10 or a 80's malibu and have a much faster ride

 

plus half of the drivers that i see in these cars be it hondas camaros mustangs couldnt drive there way out of a paper sak. and there solution is to keep adding more parts and money when they need to spend more time at the track. take your car for instance you went 11.46 now let another person drive it and they would be lucky yo get your car to run a mid 12 and that is after they have hot laped it 5 or 6 times.

 

but who know what people are thinking when they mod the hell out of something and its still a turd it seems the trend these days is all show and no go ( but tell a story about how fast it is or how fast it will be if i get traction,dont miss a gear,tranny wasnt slipping, a/r not right,etc etc)

[Guest mudbutt]

Im not taking the side of the fwd. I they arent my thing either. but for a middle of the road street car, they have just as much potential. somehow my post got messed up,when I hit send but I will try this again. This is a layout to build a decent import for not a lot of dough. I will use the cookie cutter honda just because I can name parts off of the top of my head.

 

88-91 hatch non running ~500

b18b `~1500

used basic turbo kit and IC

turbo,mani, piping) ~1000

tuning with uberdata ~10 in parts and some time

exhaust cut out ~50

dsm 450s free-100

fpr 100

fuel pump 100

 

This isnt the cheapest nor is it the most expensive way to do this, but for under 3500 you have a car that is capable of 200-280 at the wheels depending on turbo and atleast low 14 second passes. Reliable, and can do one of may autosports depending on suspension setup for less than than most people spend on their cars themselves.Im sure a v8 car can be built for less and run lower drag times. Once again, I stress Im not pro honda. All Im saying is that for the guy wanting a middle of the road street car, a fwd car isnt a total money pit.

[OGRE]

Originally posted by Mud Butt:

Im sure a v8 car can be built for less and run lower drag times.

(and still get 20mpg)

 

you made my point.

[Trouble Maker]

Ridenred27

 

I'm trying to figure out how a DSM got slung in with Hondas?

 

No, really, it's not just because I own one, your statement made total sense execpt for that part of it.

 

I also thought about geting a Honda hatchback Civic for my autocross/track car. Explain to me what I couldn't do with that car, and I could do with my DSM or a 240SX. Or how it wouldn't be alot better choice at what I like to do than a 4000lb+ car from 1963.

[Guest Tony_K]

There are a ton of RWD cars that in stock form will be very competitive with a modded FWD econobox both in performance and price.

 

Here are some RWD sports and GT cars that can be bought road ready in good condition for less than $4000:

 

RX-7

MR2

Z-car

Starion/Conquest

944

Mustang/Capri

Firebird/Camaro

Fiero GT/V6

Celica/Supra

240SX

Alfa GTV6

80s BMW 3-series

Lotus Elite/Eclat

TR-8

Maserati BiTurbo

Jensen Healey

 

If you LOOK, you can find all of the above with nice paint, in condition to not have to turn a wrench, not needing maintenance soon, and be competitive both in straightline speed and handling with modified econoboxes. With the exception of the ponycars, all offer sub-3000 lb. weight with 140-170 hp, 4-wheel disc, independent suspension, good handling, and RWD. STOCK.

 

So, why buy and drive a car that was designed to take college girls to sorrority parties and waste your time and money making it a little bit faster, when all you have is a noseheavy box?

[Guest Tony_K]

If FWD were inherently useful for performance, then every purpose-built race car would have it.

 

Nothing like watching those FWD cars at autocrosses, spinning their tires the entire time, until they dive braking into a turn...

 

Stop fighting physics.

[Guest Tony_K]

...and if all you want to do is go fast in a straight line, then a 1.x-liter FWD car is the exact opposite of what you want.

[Guest Tony_K]

...but then, after reading the "retard nitrous install" thread, and thinking about all the incredibly stupid things many kids do to Hondas and other FWD econoboxes, I'm actually kind of glad they're doing it to those cars and not the real sports and GT cars. Keep it up kids! Hondas and other econoboxes are great for learning by trial and error!

[Total Sign]

Celicas have been FWD for quite a while. Last RWD was the third generation (1982-1985)

 

Also look at Toyota Starlet.

 

And the E30 3 series. Those are a blast. Bahnfire318is has one. Every time I ride in it is better than the last.

[Guest Tony_K]

Originally posted by HIgh Risk:

Celicas have been FWD for quite a while. Last RWD was the third generation (1982-1985)

 

Also look at Toyota Starlet.

That's the celica I was talking about - shared with Supra. graemlins/thumb.gif

 

Refresh me on the Starlet?

[ridenred27]

what i am saying about dsms is they are turds like the hondas with the exception of the turbo models compare a non turbo dsm to a non turbo honda or anything else and they are turds the proformance is so so. besides being a mechanic i hate to work on dsms and nissians pain in the ass and parts are expensivethere the dodge of imports to me. dont get me wrong there a many cool and quick dsms and nissans. but i am a little bias to them. no offence im not trying to look down on those cars

 

here is one car that i totally forgot about. these cars are very cheap to make autocross cars and are pretty easy to make quick plus they are nearly bullitproof. i own 2 of these wonderfull cars

 

all 84 and up volkswagons these cars are kick ass swap parts are everywere fairly light and are easy to work on

 

to tell you all the truth im shocked that more people have not built a festiva there ugly but i have three in the family mine has the asspire suspension under it and this car is unbeliveable how it handles. (still a turd since i havent got off my ass to do the motor swap.) but these cars can be put on a diet to 1600lb and still have all the interior in them. now 1600 lb and put 150 to the ground and there is one little rocket

 

 

al and all it dosent matter what a person buys as long as there not a tool any car is cool when it is modded not riced. i want to check out those geos some time since they are another overlooked car.

[Guest mudbutt]

I love how everyone is totally missing the point. I didnt say it was THE best way to do it, but it sure as hell isnt horrible. As far as "purpose built" there are about the same amount of road racing classes for fwd as there are for rwd.(strike 1) and as far as the autocrossing and fwd guys "just spinning" on average look at some of the cars running the fastest lap times, it isnt exactly rwd dominated. it is more 50-50. Guys that hae been doing it for years arent in a fwd car because it is "cool"(strike2)Another point missed is that we are NOT talking about purpose built cars here. This is the middle of the road,daily driven car that can do a little bit of all and run and ok drag time. I personally prefer rwd, so i dont need to hear why it is better.

[Buckeye23]

Let's not forget the Celica GT-4. It had AWD. Unfortunate that Toyota moved away from that with the 7th gen.

[Guest mudbutt]

Originally posted by Ridenred27:

what i am saying about dsms is they are turds like the hondas with the exception of the turbo models compare a non turbo dsm to a non turbo honda or anything else and they are turds the proformance is so so. besides being a mechanic i hate to work on dsms and nissians pain in the ass and parts are expensivethere the dodge of imports to me. dont get me wrong there a many cool and quick dsms and nissans. but i am a little bias to them. no offence im not trying to look down on those cars

 

here is one car that i totally forgot about. these cars are very cheap to make autocross cars and are pretty easy to make quick plus they are nearly bullitproof. i own 2 of these wonderfull cars

 

all 84 and up volkswagons these cars are kick ass swap parts are everywere fairly light and are easy to work on

 

to tell you all the truth im shocked that more people have not built a festiva there ugly but i have three in the family mine has the asspire suspension under it and this car is unbeliveable how it handles. (still a turd since i havent got off my ass to do the motor swap.) but these cars can be put on a diet to 1600lb and still have all the interior in them. now 1600 lb and put 150 to the ground and there is one little rocket

 

 

al and all it dosent matter what a person buys as long as there not a tool any car is cool when it is modded not riced. i want to check out those geos some time since they are another overlooked car.

You are basicly saying what Im trying to say with the exception of honda/dsm, etc. I am not referring to the choad that is trying to drag race an n/a 4 banger. Yes, we know the guy might as well take his money and burn it for fuel, but there are much cheaper ways to have a decent fwd car.

[Total Sign]

Originally posted by Tony_K:

That's the celica I was talking about - shared with Supra. graemlins/thumb.gif

 

Refresh me on the Starlet?

Older hatch thing if I remember right. 58hp or so. Can be driven to glory, lightweight.

 

Celica GT4 or as Americans know it- "All-Trac" Good lucking finding one for 4k. 5k+ for one with 130k miles.

[Guest Tony_K]

Originally posted by Mud Butt:

I love how everyone is totally missing the point. I didnt say it was THE best way to do it, but it sure as hell isnt horrible. As far as "purpose built" there are about the same amount of road racing classes for fwd as there are for rwd.(strike 1) and as far as the autocrossing and fwd guys "just spinning" on average look at some of the cars running the fastest lap times, it isnt exactly rwd dominated. it is more 50-50. Guys that hae been doing it for years arent in a fwd car because it is "cool"(strike2)Another point missed is that we are NOT talking about purpose built cars here. This is the middle of the road,daily driven car that can do a little bit of all and run and ok drag time. I personally prefer rwd, so i dont need to hear why it is better.

"Purpose-built" refers to a car that was designed for racing, not road use. i.e. a formula car, prototype racer, top fuel dragster, sprint car, stock car, etc. "Purpose built racing car" is not a street car. Not too many tube frame cars out there that are FWD...nor are there many classes for them... My point about purpose-built cars was that FWD is useless to serious performance.

 

As for missing the point, my point is that for the same amount of money, you can enjoy a good RWD car that offers good performance and practicality. So why even bother with a FWD econobox at all? I'm not knocking FWD; I'm just questioning why settle for something decent when you can get something better/preferable for the same money? I really think it is silly to buy a FWD car when you want a performance or sporty car and have the money for one.

 

As for autox, the only reason you see a lot of FWD cars is that so many of them are entered locally. Look at the nationals (Kansas) or at any more competitive level, and with the exception of the "street modified" class which is basically for hondas and neons, RWD cars dominate, from 996s down to Miatas. The reason the more experienced drivers drive RWD cars is because they know they can go faster in them.

 

edit:

 

Again, I'm not knocking FWD cars - they are practical and many handle well, and there is nothing wrong with using one as you described in your first post - daily driver, occasional pass on the 1320; I think the making fun of these kinds of people in forums like CR comes from when they start talking as if their car were a serious performance car. There are very few serious performance road cars that are FWD, because the engineers know they can do better driving the back wheels. I don't see to much flaming of people with FWD cars that speak realistically about their cars' capabilities.

 

Cheers,

 

Tony

 

[ 18. May 2004, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Tony_K ]

[Devils Advocate]

I don't mean to burst anyones bubble, but every time I have been to an autoX event, the cars that have dominated were (in order) Vettes, Miatas, and Camaros, some of which were stock or very close to stock. Maybe I wasn't at an event where the super hondas were, but I'm still going to argue the point that RWD and WWD cars are "50-50" at autoX events.

 

Sorry Jess, going to have to agree with ridenred on the DSM thing. I've seen some decent ones, but 90% of the DSM's I see are either riced out or driven by highschool girls.

 

Ridenred, there are some very good reasons as to why not many people have made Festivas fast, the most important and glaring one being that they are, in fact, Ford Festivas. You keep your festiva that runs 12's, and I'll stick with my daily that runs 16's and isn't... a Festiva. To each his own, just as the thread is titled.

 

The point of some in this thread is that there are so many more reasonable and intelligent answers to the question "how can I go fast on a limited budget" than making a civic run 14's.

 

 

On a lighter note, why doesnt everyone just buy a motorcycle and STFU? Sorry if my post pisses anyone off, it isn't meant to.

[Guest mudbutt]

Originally posted by Tony_K:

Again, I'm not knocking FWD cars - they are practical and many handle well, and there is nothing wrong with using one as you described in your first post - daily driver, occasional pass on the 1320; I think the making fun of these kinds of people in forums like CR comes from when they start talking as if their car were a serious performance car. There are very few serious performance road cars that are FWD, because the engineers know they can do better driving the back wheels. I don't see to much flaming of people with FWD cars that speak realistically about their cars' capabilities.

 

Cheers,

 

Tony

That is the point im trying to convey. Most anyone into cars will prefer rwd for any type of serious competition. But few people here are "serious" competitors. Every car has its advantages and disadvantages and for a true daily driven street car a fwd vehicle can make a fun compromise.

[COLD AIR]

I am in NO WAY anti demestic or "true" sports car. Im not even taking the side of the honda guys but I just dont think everyone wants or needs a car that has the potential to run sub 11 second passes. Hell, there are plenty of supras,mustangs, f bodies, etc on here that are still in the high 13s low 14s and quite content with it.

 

Just my 2 pennies

So all the CR guys with 4" dicks DONT wish thay had 8"

[Guest mudbutt]

Originally posted by COLD AIR:

So all the CR guys with 4" dicks DONT wish thay had 8"

caveman speak ha-ha.....and some of us are at a happy medium that works just fine for our lady friends