OSUGT Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 Instead of building a better car and going on a national PR campaign to showcase quality and patriotism, what does GM do to move metal? "Let's give everyone the employee discount!" When are they going to learn what the imports did years ago? Build a quality car, disband unions that cost unnecessary millions and sell cars! (not rebates) With this latest move, I shutter to think about trading in a late model GM product! PS I know I own a Ford and I know damn well they are not any better off financially. I guess I'm more sad than anything. Just had to vent. Later, Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye1647545503 Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 yep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorne Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 whats the details ? just steaper discounts or what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.COS Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 Trust me we know. My wife works for GM. We buy Subarus. smile.gif Nothing good can come out of a company where there is so much hate, and distrust between employees and management. (well maybe the Z06 ) edit: Yes I know I had a Trans AM at one point. It was a really fun car, but I didn't buy it for quality, I bought it because it was stinkin' fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallard Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 What you may not realize is GM actually builds quality products. They're at the top of many of this years rankings in various categories. The only manufacturer to take for first places was Toyota and it was close. How can you say GM builds shit when someone comes on here and asks what mid-size car to buy and people overwhelingly say a GTP? I didn't see one person say, "Buy an Accord." I for one would have no problem buying a GM car if I were strictly worried about quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowgli1647545497 Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 I think the engineering and the quality is there. Quality gaps are more PR, urban legend, owner loyalty, and lingering memory than reality of today. What is KILLING GM and Ford is the designs and the legacy costs. The interiors suck and the exteriors blow. And, wtf, $1,500 of every new GM is paying for union health care benefits?!? Fucking hell, how in the WORLD can they be expected to swallow that and still compete? It all goes back to tort reform. Lawyers doing shotgun litigation to line their pockets drive up malpractice insurance costs for medical providers (doctors and hospitals) which in turn drives up employee insurance costs... Shakespeare: First you kill all the lawyers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallard Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 Originally posted by Mowgli: I think the engineering and the quality is there. Quality gaps are more PR, urban legend, owner loyalty, and lingering memory than reality of today. What is KILLING GM and Ford is the designs and the legacy costs. The interiors suck and the exteriors blow. And, wtf, $1,500 of every new GM is paying for union health care benefits?!? Fucking hell, how in the WORLD can they be expected to swallow that and still compete?You hit the nail right on the head. The union will either have to be broken or seriously reformed in they want to become as financially stable as Toyota or Honda. As with their designs, some are good, others are horrible. The Saturn Sky, Pontiac Solstice, Corvette, new Caddy's, even the G6 are all good designs in my opinion. Ohters are overly bland like Buick, then revised Monte Carlo and Impala, etc. And then the truely hideous: The Chevy HHR. I saw one of these today and rolled my eyes. It's a clean design, but a few years too late. But then a Traliblazer SS drove past me and I completely forgot about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Science Abuse Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 looks like a buyers market. graemlins/thumb.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lustalbert Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 1500 a car? what the hell. i despise unions, as far as i see, in thier curent role, they have outlived thier usefulness. like dinasours to a day when the union was the only thing an employe had to turn to when the boss whiped the shit out of em for fucking up. uaw needs to go bye bye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berto Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 urban legend of GM quality? not so much i know one guy that as soon as he gets out of school is getting nothing but imports V6 camaro headgasket went at 86k miles, and has had VARIOUS other problems his girl's alero leaks coolant and oil and it has ~50k has many other problems also meanwhile my mom's mitsu expo, had a clutch and alternator done at 200k miles...now it has 245k doesn't burn oil or anything my corolla was BEAT TO HELL people can attest to this. all i ever did was swap the transmission. 241k and still no oil consumption. GM and ford make shit. i would buy a truck (MAYBE) or a z06 or something along those lines. and thats it. people say GTP because of bang for the buck, this is a performance oriented board, a supercharged sedan is obviously going to be a favorite on this board, and is sucessful on here because its one of the few in its class. i'd rock an accord over a GTP any day of the week if we were talking about daily drivers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Every Brand has issues, even the almighty Honda. My mom had a 2000 V6 Accord 2 door, and with only 4,000 miles the power steering pump started whining. Back and forth to the dealer about 6 times and the problem was never resolved, still whined till the day she sold it. If you mass produce something there is going to be problems, not everything is going to be perfect everytime, its just the nature of the beast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by RX7dood: my corolla was BEAT TO HELL people can attest to this. all i ever did was swap the transmission. 241k and still no oil consumption. I didnt change the oil in that car for ~30k miles or just over a year, FWIW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate1647545505 Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by RX7dood: urban legend of GM quality? not so much i know one guy that as soon as he gets out of school is getting nothing but imports V6 camaro headgasket went at 86k miles, and has had VARIOUS other problems his girl's alero leaks coolant and oil and it has ~50k has many other problems also meanwhile my mom's mitsu expo, had a clutch and alternator done at 200k miles...now it has 245k doesn't burn oil or anything my corolla was BEAT TO HELL people can attest to this. all i ever did was swap the transmission. 241k and still no oil consumption. GM and ford make shit. i would buy a truck (MAYBE) or a z06 or something along those lines. and thats it. people say GTP because of bang for the buck, this is a performance oriented board, a supercharged sedan is obviously going to be a favorite on this board, and is sucessful on here because its one of the few in its class. i'd rock an accord over a GTP any day of the week if we were talking about daily drivers. the alero was a reject, like honda trannies in minivans. They come with 5 year warrenties because they need them. what year camaro? if it's the 3.1/3.4 those are known problems. if its a 3.8 SII, then I'd be suprised. I dog on my car's interior but its not like I don't like driving it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowgli1647545497 Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 I don't think you can drive a late 80s, early 90s domestic and from that draw a conclusion on the state of current product quality or engineering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokin5s Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by RX7dood: urban legend of GM quality? not so much i know one guy that as soon as he gets out of school is getting nothing but imports V6 camaro headgasket went at 86k miles, and has had VARIOUS other problems his girl's alero leaks coolant and oil and it has ~50k has many other problems also meanwhile my mom's mitsu expo, had a clutch and alternator done at 200k miles...now it has 245k doesn't burn oil or anything my corolla was BEAT TO HELL people can attest to this. all i ever did was swap the transmission. 241k and still no oil consumption. GM and ford make shit. i would buy a truck (MAYBE) or a z06 or something along those lines. and thats it. people say GTP because of bang for the buck, this is a performance oriented board, a supercharged sedan is obviously going to be a favorite on this board, and is sucessful on here because its one of the few in its class. i'd rock an accord over a GTP any day of the week if we were talking about daily drivers.I have a buddy with a '95 V6 camaro 3.4... he beat the SHIT out of that car EVERYDAY.... he had almost 200k on that motor, before finally the timing chain blew and he said screw it, I want a Z28... I have an '89 Blazer with 181k on the clock... runs PERFECT.... I would drive it anywhere if the damn thing wasn't rusted and a gas hog. I know Joe Broadman's dad has one with 300k on the clock. my '04 has been beat to shit and back by me, has 30k on the clock, still runs perfect, the interior fit and finish is tons better as well as the overall styling... hell, my camaro runs well and I beat the everliving shit out of that car everytime I drive it. Granted, it's not stock, but it takes a licking and keeps on ticking.... now, my ex's Honda Accord, she had to get rid of it because it was broken down every other weekend. GM has done amazing things as far as quality and reliability on their motors since the late 80's... the only thing that they are doing wrong is not introducing more than 2 valves per cyl in anything other than the caddy or forced induction into their bigger motor vehicles. your buddy probably doesn't do typical maintence or anything to his cars thus why he's having problems. It doesn't matter who makes the motor, it can only take so much abuse. To anyone who takes trash about the reliability of any Domestic car.... do yourselves a favor, look around at the older cars on the road... garanteed that you'll see more Corsica's or Beretta's, or hell, even Chivette's than you do see mid-late 80's anything else... Hell, the Chrystler mini-van's and omni's are still everywhere... Everyone who talks about the reliability that is so far superior on imports than domestics has giving into a good sales pitch... /rant off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate1647545505 Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 let us not forget austins n* shot of nitrous cavy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPLN SUX Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by sleepers, inc.: let us not forget austins n* shot of nitrous cavy.75shot + Sunoco 94 = 13.91@102.8 75shot + BP 93 = Blown engine I miss that engine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conesmasher Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Something has to be done about the UAW, if nothing happens, it will be the Union that destroys Ford and GM. Second of all, you shouldn't need a "rebate" to sell a car, it should sell itself. I don't know if GM thinks that they are sending the correct message or not, but I think they are wrong. They are attempting to focus on price point rather than quality point. It may be true that their quality is up, but that doesn't fix a repuatation, this takes years to fix, as Hyundai is begining to feel the effects of improved quality and reliability. One of the biggest problems is that it seems that GM doesn't realize that they may have to take one step back, to take two steps forward. I think that they should gradually slide off the rebates, and find another market niche. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kohones Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 B A Buick posted = -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Every Brand has issues, even the almighty Honda. My mom had a 2000 V6 Accord 2 door, and with only 4,000 miles the power steering pump started whining. Back and forth to the dealer about 6 times and the problem was never resolved, still whined till the day she sold it. If you mass produce something there is going to be problems, not everything is going to be perfect everytime, its just the nature of the beast. All I can say is = 1) GM needs to start DESIGNING again 2) Yeah screw the unions 3) Hey Jeff, you can't complain at all because your Mom refuses to even have her oil changed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 I know that "dad" but having the oil changed and a whining power steering pump a 4k miles is totally different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kohones Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Just messin with ya / I couldn't help it. I read your post & remembered that poor Nissan she drove into the ground, talk about taking a licking yet it kept on ticking!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desperado Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 Unions = expensive cars, twisted mentality and unemployement, and yes I will spell it out. Expensive cars, that has been established elsewhere. There is $1500 in aditional cost (and personally I feel that number is low in reality) of car built in a union shop. The twisted mentality and unemployement sort of go hand in hand. There are folks that are making $35 an hour making door skins for cars. The process is to put the sheet metal in the press, remove your hands and press the button. Then remove the part, put it in the bin, remove the scrap and put in in another bin and repeat. Here's the problem, when the union has securied that sort of pay structure for a worker, to do simple work like that, the worker in time feels that he is worth that sort of money any place he goes. More over he may have done that job for 25 yrs. So, now not only does he feel that he is worth that level of pay. He has no clue how to do much else. He's not in reality a skilled worker. His options are running a press and flipping burgers. And the pay for a press operator in a non-union shop (which outside of the automotive industry is becoming the norm) and the burger flipper is about the same $10 an hour if you are lucky, and there aren't 10 other guys after that same job, so where does the guy that believes he's worth $35 an hour end up, the cheese line, because he's convinced that he's worth premium wages for manual labor. This is the twisted mentality part. The other issue that is created is that as the auto industry moves plants to Mexico or where ever else they can to get away from the unions it creates MORE unemployment. Is it really the auto manufactures fault In a way it is, for not standing up to the unions and saying a flat no when the union says they want even more for the workers. But the unions are as much at fault for not being reasonable, and for driving the price up for labor. It's really a viscous cycle that when it grinds to a halt at some point will be devistating to the national economy and the wefare and unemployement system. We will see an unheard of number of job seekers, with very little in the way of qualifications all out looking for work. The federal goverment will be forced, by neccessity and by public demand and outcry to pay and retrain these workers so they can reenter the job market. Here's the thing, the jobs they will be after then will be our jobs. And the labor price will fall, after all if there is an abundance of anything, be it coal, gasoline, or trained workers the supply and demand will dictate the price. If you refuse for what ever reason to work for two dollars less on the hour, there are three guys standing in front of your company that will take 3 bucks less to do your job. That's why high unemployement levels will screw EVERYONE, even the guys with jobs now. And our tax money will go to train these workers to take our jobs from us. Couple that with the glut of illegal workers in this country that will work under the table for VERY little pay and we have an economy that will plumet out of control. Even business will suffer from this, due to the need to drop prices in order to sell product. After all, no matter what it is and how wonderful and useful it might be, if no one can afford to buy it, it's worthless no matter how high the price. I will not say that the unions were not needed early on. They were necessary to get kids into schools, to get fair wages for workers, and to protect workers from the greed of their employers, problem is that the unions are now as greedy if not more so that the companies themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 Originally posted by Kohones: Just messin with ya / I couldn't help it. I read your post & remembered that poor Nissan she drove into the ground, talk about taking a licking yet it kept on ticking!!!That car is still running on the original motor.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorne Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 Originally posted by sleepers, inc.: Originally posted by RX7dood: [ what year camaro? if it's the 3.1/3.4 those are known problems. if its a 3.8 SII, then I'd be suprised. I dog on my car's interior but its not like I don't like driving it. I had a 1996 3.8 Blow a head gasket at 90k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate1647545505 Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 Originally posted by NoRodStang: I had a 1996 3.8 Blow a head gasket at 90k. 96 was still Series I, our stock Series II setups take psi with no problems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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