Motorcycle Oil - part 1

[ReconRat]

I see the thread on oil, and a while back I did research on oil for myself. I wrote it all down at the time, so I wouldn't forget it. It might not be perfect, but it's close enough for me. I thought I'd share it, but I really don't want to argue about it. I have one for filters too, but it needs a little work. Maybe later.

DO NOT BUY:

1. Any oils with ratings higher than SG. (Basically don't use car oil, no SH, SJ, SL, SM)

WHY: All oil with a rating higher than SG is considered low friction (friction modifiers).

Manufacturers are not required to indicate what they have added to the oil.

THEREFORE: It's impossible to tell if something the bike won't like has been added.

2. Oils that claim Teflon or PTFE, graphite, organic molybdenum compounds, or other special slippery stuff. i.e. Slick 50,

WHY: The clutch will slip, the starter will not engage, etc.

3. Oils that claim friction modifiers, or "Energy Conserving" and/or "Energy Conserving II" (organic molybdenum compounds)

WHY: The clutch will slip, the starter will not engage, etc.

4. Oils with the 15W-xx rating. i.e. 15W-40

WHY: It's diesel engine oil. It behaves completely different in the engine.

BMW might be an exception, but be careful to get motorcycle oil not diesel oil. (BMW oil or Golden Spectro)

5. Racing oil if you are not racing.

WHY: Street bikes stop a lot, racing bikes try hard not to.

THEREFORE: Different type oil requirements.

6. Additives or cleaners for your oil.

WHY: Unless it's sold by the vehicle manufacturer, it's BS.

STP in your motorcycle engine will be one of the biggest mistakes you'll ever make.

DO BUY:

1. Oils with the motorcycle JASO MA rating.

2. Oils with high viscosity ratings. See the short list below.

3. The correct wieght oil for your motorcycle. i.e. 10W-40

Why: This is the basic viscosity rating. 5W-xx oil will pit the gears. Bad.

Correct wieght supports bearings, resists against consumption due to volatility.

4. Good quality/brand SG or JASO MA oil, can be mineral, semi-synthetic, or synthetic.

WHY: Type I and V are the wrong types. (Type II, III, IV, but not type I or V)

5. Synthetic oil for use in cold weather.

6. Cheap oil for storing the bike in the Winter. (either Rotella, or basic cheap SG)

7. Better oil or different oil if your clutch slips or the gears are hard to shift.

8. Better oil if it looks beat up when you drain it.

WHY: It should still have viscosity when you drain it.

A good oil will will finish up by streaming out in a fine flow.

A broken down oil will finish up with a drip drip drip.

I.E. It should pour out like it poured in.

9. Oils with zinc (ZDDP; zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate) as an additive.

WHY: good anti-wear additive for motorcycles.

10. Oils with Phosphorus from ZDDP as an additive.

WHY: Prevents gear wear, protects transmission.

(Bad for catalytic converters, but I don't have one in Ohio.)

NOTES:

1. SE SF SG SJ SH SJ SM SL oil ratings on the container, will not always have the official circle emblem.

The official certification requires that an oil meets current ratings. (SL)

Thus a new oil meeting older motorcycle ratings of SG, will not receive any official rating at all.

It will simply say somewhere that it meets or exceeds SG.

Another reason is that the certification is very expensive, and some oil companies won't do it.

2. The lack of ratings for motorcycle oils, is now covered by the Japanese JASO MA and MB ratings.

MA is heavy duty, MB is light duty.

3. If the viscosity of the oil is broken down when it's drained, change it more often, or use a better oil.

The oil should stream out when it's done draining, instead of dripping. (if it's reasonably hot oil)

i.e. it should pour out like it poured in where possible.

4. Some engines, for example the early Honda V4s, and any turbo, needed better-than-average oil such as semi- or full-synthetics.

(note: modified engines with extremely high compression ratios can destroy oil in just days or weeks.)

5. Mineral oils generally have a higher viscosity than synthetics, but they can't keep it that way.

6. There is no such thing as a pure 100% synthetic. Synthetics are made from mineral oil or ethanol, etc.

Synthetics are generally a mix of both mineral, and mineral enhanced to be considered synthetic.

(Type IV oils, PAOs, are the closest to a true synthetic. Mobil One, (use motorcycle type only), is the only one I can think of.)

7. It's ok to add a mineral to a synthetic, or a synthetic to a mineral. Not a problem.

6. Don't get obsessed with oil: the best advice you can find is in the owner's manual

7. Special application oils are for special application motorcycles, you don’t have one, forget it.

8. Honda HP4 oil, which is a mineral/synthetic blend, appears to have molybdenum additives.

Opinions differ as to whether molybdenum is bad for the clutch plates.

If it's not so bad, why did Honda take it out of their HP4, and have two types, one with and one without?

Also, SportRider tested the HP4 without molybdenum and found it had significant amounts in it.

9. Some bikes have no problems with the molybdenum additives. Likewise, some bikes have no problem with car oil. Even the ones with the slippery energy conserving additives.

-----------------

Viscosity ratings from independant testing:

Notable here, is that a petroleum based oil can out-perform a synthetic.

Also notable, is that the oil breaks down the viscosity very fast in a motorcycle.

Relative Viscosity Retention

(as a percentage of initial viscosity retained

after normal use in the same motorcycle)

0 mi 800 mi 1500 mi 2500 mi type

---- ------ ------- ------- ----

Mobil1 100% 86.6% 83.0% 79.1% synthetic/automotive oil

Castrol Syntec 100% 78.1% 74.5% Not tested synthetic/automotive oil

Castrol GTX 100% 72.2% 68.0% " " petroleum/automotive oil

Honda HP4 100% 69.2% 65.6% " " synthetic/Motorcycle oil

Spectro 4 100% 68.0% 63.9% " " petroleum/Motorcycle oil

Most of these are automotive oils, this list is just to show how some petroleum oils outperform synthetics, when you wouldn't expect it.

---------------------

continued in part 2

Edited March 25, 2012 by ReconRat

[ReconRat]

continued from part 1:

Types of oil:

Group I: Solvent frozen mineral oil. This is the least processed of all oils on the market today and is typically used in nonautomotive applications, though some of it may find its way into low-cost motor oils.

Group II: Hydro-processed and refined mineral oil. This is the most common of all petroleum oils and is the standard component of most petroleum-based automotive and motorcycle engine oils.

Group III (now called synthetic): The oils start as standard Group I oils and are processed to remove impurities, resulting in a more heat-stable compound than possible as a standard Group I or II oil. Some examples are Castrol Syntec automotive oil and Motorex Top Speed. These are the lowest cost synthetics to produce, and generally do not perform as well as Group IV or V oils.

Group IV: Polyalphaolefin, commonly called PAOs. These are the most common of the full synthetic oils, and usually offer big improvements in heat and overall stability when compared to Group III oils. They are produced in mass quantities and are reasonably inexpensive for full-synthetic oils. Since they are wax-free they offer high viscosity indexes (low temperature pour point) and often require little or no viscosity modifiers. Examples include Mobil One, Amsoil and Motorex Power Synt.

Group V: Esters. These oils start their life as plant or animal bases called fatty acids. They are then converted via a chemical reaction into esters or diesters which are then used as base stocks. Esters are polar, which means they act like a magnet and actually cling to metals. This supposedly offers much better protection on metal-to-metal surfaces than conventional PAOs, which do not have this polar effect. These base stock oils also act as a good solvent inside the engine, translating into cleaner operation. Esters are the most expensive to produce, and oils manufactured with them usually cost much more. Due to this higher cost, many companies only fortify their oils with esters. Some examples are Bel-Ray EXS, Torco MPZ Synthetic and Maxum 4 Extra. Motul 300V, however, uses 100 percent ester as its base oil, and is one of the more expensive oils.

----------------

Honda technical bulletin in 1988 on SH and higher oils:

"This type of oil was developed to optimize the kilometres per litre attained by automobile engines. To achieve this, most SH oils contain friction modifiers that significantly reduce frictional losses on internal combustion engine components. [...] While SH oil is fine in automobile engines, the situation is different for motorcycle engines.

"The use of SG rated oil with friction modifiers in Honda motorcycle engines may cause the following problems:

* Wear between the camshaft lobes and rockers arms due to the lubricant breaking down between the two components.

* Slipping and deterioration of wet multi-plate clutch systems.

* Slipping of one-way starter clutch systems.

* Possible wear and pitting of transmission gear teeth due to the decreased shear-stability of the oil

"Not all SH rated oils use friction modifiers. But since oil producers are not required to state if their oil contains friction modifiers, it is difficult to tell which brand may cause a problem. With this in mind, we recommend that SH rated oils not be used in Honda motorcycles."

---------------

A research study [2] published by the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) and written by researchers belonging to the four Japanese motorcycle makers looked at then-new SH-rated car oils to evaluate their suitability for motorcycles. Among their conclusions:

1. The motorcycle manufacturers recommend SE, SF, SG-rated oils.

2. The manufacturers observe gear-pitting with viscosities less than 10W30.

3. Low-friction oils can cause wet multi-plate clutches to slip too much.

4. Low-friction oils can cause one-way limited slip (or back-torque limiting) clutches to slip too much.

5. Low-friction oils can cause starter motor clutches to slip too much.

------------------

recommended oils for 4cyl 4stroke motorcycles: (my choice)

all are specifically 4stroke motorcycle 10w40 oils, except the Castrol R4 5W40, none are meant for use in automobiles

full synthetics can be 5W40 instead of 10W40

1. Castrol R4 SuperBike (full synthetic)

2. Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40 (full synthetic?) (some users complain of clunky shifting with it)

3. Castrol GPS (synthetic based)

4. Honda HP4 (synthetic/mineral blend) (two types?-some have molybdenum additives-don't buy-eek!)

5. Castrol Actevo 4T (synthetic based - cheaper basic oil)

6. Honda GN4 (mineral based?)

7. Spectro Golden 4 10W40 (synthetic/mineral blend)

8. Repsol 4T Racing 10W40 (synthetic/mineral blend)

Amsoil is pretty high rated oil as well.

edit: add Shell Rotella to this list. A low cost oil. (WalMart by the gallon.)

Shell Rotella® T3 SAE 15W-40

Shell Rotella® T6 Full Synthetic

Both will say JASO MA on the container. Safe for motorcycles.

edit: confusion... Shell Rotella has dropped the JASO-MA specifications from their website for Rotella T3 and Rotella T6. It now shows JASO-MA for "Rotella T Triple Protection". I won't be using Rotella any more, not if they can't make up their minds...

-------------------------

Edited March 26, 2012 by ReconRat

[ReconRat]

Bad:

and anything that looks like it.

Good:

In case of on-file as MA1 or MA2 (Y = 1 or 2)

The MA is the important part, the red letter after that is a revision mark.

So right now most will say either MA1 or MA2.

Unfortunately, the oil often doesn't have a nice little graphic.

It might only say "exceeds JASO MA2" somewhere on the container.

It is the JASO MA2 that you want to see on your oil.

Granted, some oils might have both markings, auto and motorcycle. That's ok.

Edited August 25, 2010 by ReconRat

[f4isvt]

definite very imformative I generally do not pay that much attention to the bottle but I also use gn4 honda oil and honda oil filter i figure if they can produce the bike they can produce the oil.

[ReconRat]

definite very imformative I generally do not pay that much attention to the bottle but I also use gn4 honda oil and honda oil filter i figure if they can produce the bike they can produce the oil.

You are correct. The vehicle manufacturer is seldom wrong.

[Disclaimer]

I agree with everything except your first point.

Ratings higher than SG are fine as long as they meet JASO MA 4T or 903.

Via [http://www.wingworldmag.com/archives/november2005/magazine/article/OilStandards.html]

The Current State Of Affairs

In October 1996, the A.P.I. introduced the SJ performance category, and as of August 1, 1997, it became the only category licensed or tested by the A.P.I. All previous categories, such as SE, SF, SG, SH, became obsolete. Since that time, the categories SL and SM have been approved. SM was effective as of November 30, 2004, and is the most up to date. It’s approved for all automotive engines currently in use. As the A.P.I. manual clearly states, “Each gasoline engine category exceeds the performance properties of all previous categories and can be used in place of the lower one. For example, an SM oil can be used for any previous category.” According to the A.P.I., “the categories are determined by laboratory and engine tests that measure the ability of an oil to control things that are harmful to an engine, such as, wear, sludge, varnish, oil thickening, rust, bearing corrosion, and piston deposits.” An SM-rated oil performs better in these areas than an SG, SH, SJ, or SL oil, so why would anybody want to sell an SM oil and label it as SG?

To further complicate matters for the consumer, another factor has come into play—friction modifiers. These substances help reduce internal engine friction and increase fuel economy. They also help maintain a very thin layer of lubrication on critical parts that might otherwise be subjected to metal-to-metal contact at start-up or at times when oil pressure is low, such as at idle.

These modifiers, along with the reduced levels of zinc and phosphorus, were incorporated into some oils meeting the standards for SJ and later certifications. While our first impulse might be to applaud the presence of these modifiers, their inclusion forms the basis for one of the main assertions of motorcycle oil manufacturers. They claim that the presence of friction modifiers can cause the wet clutches of motorcycles (like your Gold Wing or Valkyrie) to slip. I won’t argue that point. What I will argue against is the implication that all certification levels newer than SG contain sufficient amounts of friction modifiers to cause a clutch problem. Remember, the SM designation by itself does not necessarily denote the presence of modifiers at all; it refers to levels of protection in other areas.

Only Your Chemist Knows For Sure

If you were to select an SL or SM oil for use in your motorcycle, how would you know how much friction modifier is in it? And, if you did know how much, would you know if that amount would likely be harmful to your bike? I don’t think so. The same goes for the various other chemicals, and that’s the reason most oil comparison articles are pointless mental exercises.

One way of gaining an insight, however inconclusive, is to look for the “starburst” on the front of the container. If you find it there, do not put that oil in your wet-clutch motorcycle. This “starburst,” or “A.P.I. certification mark” as it’s known, appears only on oils that meet all of the requirements for light duty gasoline engine oils. Oils with viscosity numbers higher than 10W30 do not qualify for the starburst certification, nor do they qualify for the energy conserving designation in the A.P.I. certification “doughnut” on the back of the container. These heavier oils (10W40, 15W40, 20W50, etc) are not required to contain the same level of friction modifiers as the lighter oils. Coincidentally, there’s not a single current production motorcycle I’m aware of that has 10W30 or lighter oil specified for use by its manufacturer as the standard oil. 10W40 and 20W50 are the norms, with 15W50 occasionally appearing in rider handbooks. Does your owner’s manual recommend, or even permit, the use of 0W30, or 5W30? Mine doesn’t, yet those were the viscosities of greatest concern to the folks who manufacture motorcycles.

In a conversation with the licensing folks at the A.P.I., it was suggested to me that if a person wanted to completely avoid friction modifiers without using motorcycle specific oil, the use of heavy-duty fleet oil, sometimes referred to as “diesel oil,” in 15W40 weight would be a good choice. Most of these oils now meet SL performance standards (though not all of them display the A.P.I. service symbol), are low in sulfated ash content, and have no requirement imposed on them to include friction modifiers.

I asked the A.P.I. why, in their opinion, the major bike makers had become frozen in time? Why hadn’t they begun recommending these heavy-duty fleet oils rather than sticking with the obsolete SF and SG? They answered that the fleet oils in Japan are very high in ash content compared with those in the U.S., and the manufacturers simply may not be aware of that important difference. Since the SG performance category contained no requirement for modifiers, and since it wasn’t possible to tell consumers which SJ or later oils didn’t have them, the decision was most likely made to stay with the SG recommendation until more was known.

More is now known. And as this writer predicted back in 2000, American Honda has begun implementing the JASO standard in their recommendations. Observe carefully the following recommendations contained in the 2005 GL1800 owner’s manual. It applies to all years of GL1800 and is “backwards compatible” with all earlier model Wings.

We’ll discuss the JASO and MA specifications in a moment. But notice the X across the “doughnut” with the energy conserving statement in the bottom. Also notice the asterisk in the table indicating that the “suggested oil” is of equal performance with SJ oils, and understand that the material was likely written before SL or SM became the current standard. Once again, we should search for the latest API protection level available.

Is It Really SG?

Because SG is obsolete, are the many oils on vendors’ shelves labeled only as SG really only SG, or are they SJ or later quality oils labeled as SG? In other words, are these oils nothing more than slightly massaged PCMOs masquerading as motorcycle oils? Could they be identical products in some cases? Yes, that practice is completely legal. The only requirements of an oil retailer who wishes to list an obsolete performance category on the container are that, (a.) the product must meet at least the specifications for that obsolete category and, (b.) the obsolete category must not appear inside the A.P.I. service symbol, or “doughnut.” For that reason, you’ll not find the A.P.I symbol on an SG-rated bottle of motorcycle oil unless the oil has also been certified as SJ, SL, or SM. Even then, the SG will simply appear somewhere in the text on the container, not inside the API service symbol.

After speaking with several marketers of SG motorcycle oil, I’ve been convinced that some have indeed managed to find a continuing source for the SG additive package for blending their oils. Other sources have been less convincing. A conversation with a customer service person at one oil company went something like this:

“Does this oil meet only the criteria for SG, or is it actually an SJ oil which hasn’t been subjected to testing and licensing by the A.P.I.?”

“Um, well, testing and certification costs money, and we certainly don’t see a need to certify our oils to a level higher than what the market demands.”

The unspoken answer was obvious. Don’t get me wrong. I would actually prefer to use an SJ or later oil rather than an SG because the performance and protection offered by those oils is much better in certain areas as previously discussed. This is the same reason that caused me to immediately switch to SG oils when they became available in 1989 rather than searching for remaining supplies of the SF oil which was recommended for my 1980 model bike. It’s unfortunate that motorcycle oil makers had chosen to draw the battle lines around the issue of SG versus SJ, because if they were truly selling a product which qualified no better than SG, then their customers were missing out on some important benefits in my opinion.

The New World Order

The A.P.I. is not now, nor has it ever been, in the business of testing or licensing motorcycle specific oils. Manufacturer claims were just that. You either believed them or you didn’t, but there was no hard and fast standard to which motorcycle oils had to adhere. The SG designation on a bottle of oil does not constitute certification by the A.P.I. as motorcycle oil, nor is the appearance of an SJ, SL, or SM necessarily a disqualification. Several house-branded motorcycle oils (those sold under the bike manufacturer’s brand name) are SJ or later oils and say so on the container.

[Disclaimer]

Continued...

A New Standard: JASO 4T

The Japan Automobile Standards Organization (JASO) began working on a motorcycle oil classification system in April 1996. One month later, a paper jointly authored by Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, and Yamaha described problems experienced that were caused by low viscosity and low friction oils. These problems were clutch slippage, gear pitting, and volatility resulting in oil consumption. The oils of primary concern were 0W30 and 5W30 along with their friction modifiers. Between that time and March 1998, JASO worked to develop test methods and specifications for a classification referred to as 4T. That classification was finalized and became effective on March 26, 1998. Basically, the 4T specifications consist of:

a) engine protection performance levels, and

b) physical properties.

A friction performance test then separates 4T oils into either MA (high friction applications) or MB (lower friction). The permissible engine performance quality levels for JASO certification are SE, SF, SG, SH, SJ, and all future specifications. Note that carefully. SJ is permissible, as are the newer SL and SM.

The Japan Automobile Standards Organization developed the JASO specifications with input from the major motorcycle manufacturers in a process similar to the way the outboard motor manufacturers (and others) supplied input for the TCW3 specs for two stroke oil to the National Marine Manufacturers Association. The American Petroleum Institute was not involved with the approval of either standard. Therefore, as is the case with marine two stroke oils, no A.P.I. rating need appear on JASO approved motorcycle oil. So, can you rest assured that because of the performance levels required to qualify as a 4T oil, these new oils will contain all of the engine protection properties necessary to insure long engine life and efficient operation of your engine and transmission? Not necessarily. Though the required physical properties are described by limits or standards for sulfated ash, volatility loss, foaming tendency, shear stability, etc., as described earlier, we should consider obtaining an oil that meets the latest API standards: SJ, SL, or SM.

The qualification regimen we’ve discussed so far is fairly similar to what’s been the case for years; the addition of friction performance standards is the major change from previous methods of testing and warrants more detailed explanation.

Will 4-T Protect My Clutch?

A 4T-MA oil is designed to not induce clutch slippage even under conditions of high load, horsepower, and torque. To determine whether or not a candidate for approval oil meets those MA specs, it is submitted to a friction test as follows. The friction test is run on a SAE #2 machine that spins a clutch at 3600 rpm in a candidate oil. The clutch is cycled 1000 times. Friction coefficient, torque, and “stop time” (the time required for the clutch to lock up) are then measured at 500 and 1000 cycles.

Based on the results, indices for dynamic friction (friction between clutch parts moving in relation to each other), static friction (no relative movement), and stop time are calculated and compared to those of two reference oils, one high friction (A) and one lower friction (B). If any of the candidate oils’ indices fall short of the level required for MA certification, then that oil is MB. However, and this is a point worth noting, the oil will qualify as an MA oil if all its friction indices are MA, regardless of the presence of friction modifiers.

Why You’ve Never Heard Of 4-T

Okay, so if the 4T motorcycle oil specs have been around since 1998, how come we’re only just now seeing the product? One reason is that once the specs became cast in stone, oil marketers needed time to get geared up to produce and market the stuff. Another reason may be gleaned from the answer given me by that customer service person; the market simply wasn’t demanding it. Of course, we can’t expect people to clamor for something that neither the marketers nor the bike magazines have told anybody about! And that’s what we’re endeavoring to do here, dear reader; to permit you to determine whether what you’re buying is a certified motorcycle oil or not. It seems we motorcyclists sometimes argue pointlessly with each other over SG versus SJ when, in fact, neither category defines an oil as being motorcycle specific. Assuming that an oil meets the 4T requirements of proper viscosity, engine protection performance, and physical properties, the tests for friction coefficients and clutch stop time are the defining motorcycle-specific parameters.

Now, I’d hate to come off as a conspiracy theorist, but a situation existed in the motorcycle oil market at the time “Motorcycle Oil Standards—Finally!” was originally published that wasn’t begging for change. Since the introduction of SJ oils, motorcycle oil makers finally began to make a convincing argument for their products by separating them from PCMOs in a way that couldn’t be missed. They retained the SG performance category labels, claiming that SJ oils had the previously discussed properties, and that those properties might damage certain engine or clutch components. Appeals to fear and emotion are powerful marketing tools; especially when the target market is incapable of distinguishing fact from fancy. To introduce JASO 4T products at that point would only cause more fear and confusion and cast doubt on existing products.

From discussions I’ve had with various oil companies, it seems to me that they had all been watching each other to see who would go first with the 4T issue.

I’m not certain who went first, but the majority of products now advertised as motorcycle-specific oils also claim to conform to JASO T-903 test standards and meet both the 4-T and MA specification. Looks like my crystal ball was hitting on all cylinders back then, for that’s exactly what I predicted. However, some oils actually display a JASO certification, while others simply state that their product conforms. Is the oil expensive in your opinion? Then vote with your wallet. Pay the premium price only for a certified product, and ignore unsubstantiated claims.

Why Should I Care?

Many readers have accumulated well over 100,000 miles on their current machines using their favorite brand of oil without experiencing any problems. That fact in itself would provide me sufficient peace of mind. However, for those considering a switch of oil brands for any number of reasons, does a switch to a motorcycle-specific oil that’s rated no higher than SG and with no JASO rating make sense? As explained earlier, the motorcycle-specific claims made for these oils cannot be substantiated solely on the basis of the A.P.I. SG performance rating. The consumer can take comfort only in the carefully crafted phrases and buzz words on the labels, which are naturally designed to lead one to certain conclusions.

The relatively high price of motorcycle-specific oils is justified from the producer’s point of view. Relative to the size of the market for PCMOs, there are far fewer members of the bike oil market among whom the costs of production, marketing, packaging, and distribution may be spread, and the sales volume will be low compared to PCMOs. If a consumer decides to spend his or her money on a motorcycle specific product, that consumer should be able to determine that for the additional cost, the product is delivering a significant and meaningful benefit over the PCMO alternatives. With the advent of the 4T-MA classification, I fail to see how motorcycle oil marketers who fail to certify their products to 4T can continue making some of their claims with a straight face.

The maker of one well-known brand of synthetic oils recently introduced its own motorcycle-specific SG product. I questioned the product manager about his selection of pricing and distribution strategy. He responded that he wished I’d not focus on the price (for obvious reasons), but instead, consider all the benefits of using the product. I said, “Okay, tell me about the benefits.” He responded, “Every bottle is filled with world-leading technology.” I remain unconvinced.

There's much more in the article, but that's pretty much the pertinent stuff.

[Moto-Brian]

Good info right here. And, no generalizing with a basis of opinion vs. fact finding. I appreciate and respect people who do their homework. A little more than I would have expected, but still very nice in terms of follow through. Great job.

[ReconRat]

(what JRMMii said:) Yes, it's in there, I just didn't make it as clear as you did. As long as it has the JASO MA2 it's ok for motorcycles. Regardless of whatever automotive ratings it might have. Interesting that the 4T part of the JASO is coming into play. A 4T oil can be either an MA1, MA2, or MB1 or MB2. And more as revisions come out. (3,4,etc) It's still the MA2 specification that most of us want to use.

Edited November 10, 2008 by ReconRat

[robhawk]

Heres and Idea, just use what the Manufacturer recommends for your bike. I kinda think they know what to run in it.

[kenny]

meh

Edited November 10, 2008 by kenny

[ReconRat]

oops, 4T oil....

Just looked this up. Excruciating details. The 4T refers to 4-stroke motorcycle oil, and references the JASO T 903:2006 standard. 4T does not appear in this specification. Neither as a method, a type of oil, nor as an acceptable marking on containers. Oil manufacturers apparently decided to use 4T and 2T to reference the difference between 4 stroke and 2 stroke motor oil.

The markings of MA1, MA2, MB1, MB2 are shown in the specification as part of the necessary JASO T 904:2006, which is the Motorcycle four-cycle oils JASO test procedure. i.e. the Test procedure for friction property of clutch system. MA is high friction (heavy duty), and MB is low friction (light duty).

The good news is that Iron Pony sells JASO MA2 oil. I didn't find anything else when I looked. Autozone, of course, didn't have an JASO MA2 oil that I could find.

edit: Autozone does indeed now sell motorcycle oil. Look over to the left and up in the oil display.

Edited March 25, 2012 by ReconRat

[12oclocker]

my CRF250X has a divided case, I can put different tranny oil in if I want, which I do.

[Moto-Brian]

I didn't find anything else when I looked. Autozone, of course, didn't have an JASO MA2 oil that I could find.

Ask Kenny. He uses an oil that's "good nuff"!

In any case, great info guys. Hard read, but informative. Use what you all want as they have stated before, but in the end, use the RIGHT stuff. After all, it only takes one time and when it goes bad, it gets expensive. I can get you a good idea of what a street bike typically looks like vs. a race bike motor. Never any good. But, we've seen some really good track day guys' motors and some street motors that have been babied. Good stuff in your motor is like good stuff in your body. I can find a bunch of guys who smoke their lungs out, but live until they are 90. I can find people that are so damn healthy they make yourself sick and they die when they are 30.

Point is, do what you believe is right. You might win out. Of course, you might loose, too...

[OldBlue]

great info, thanks.

[kawi kid]

very good read right there!! wtg

[wrillo]

bump for newbs

[Zorro]

Nice work...finally some useful information on this site!

[usafstud]

Are you saying any new cheap oil for winter storage?

Thanks for the info.

[ReconRat]

Are you saying any new cheap oil for winter storage?

Thanks for the info.

Not really, stick with oils that are ok for motorcycles.

If you want cheap, go to WalMart and get gallons of either:

Shell Rotella® T3 SAE 15W-40

Shell Rotella® T6 Full Synthetic

Both will say JASO MA on the container. Safe for motorcycles.

edit: confusion... Shell Rotella has dropped the JASO-MA specifications from their website for Rotella T3 and Rotella T6. It now shows JASO-MA for "Rotella T Triple Protection". I won't be using Rotella any more, not if they can't make up their minds...

Edited March 26, 2012 by ReconRat

[mello dude]

Since this is a technical oil thread, more info for grins......

Part 1 What is motor oil really made of?

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0308_oil/index.html

Part 2 Laboratory and Dyno Analysis

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0310_oil/index.html

Edited October 14, 2010 by mello dude