New GM rear-wheel-drive vehicles on hold

[excell]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/automotive/columnists/chi-0704090401apr10,0,7049242.column?coll=chi-business-hed

 

Apparently Camaro and G8 are still green-light.

[351mach11647545510]

screw the government and their stupid liberal asses

[ImUrOBGYN]

Disappointing but one of Lutz's comments made me laugh.

 

"Carbon dioxide is a natural byproduct of burning gas and directly proportional to the amount of fuel burned. If we legislate CO(-2) from cars, why not legislate we take one less breath per minute since humans release capricious amounts of CO(-2) each time they exhale?" offered a testy Lutz."

[Ramsey]

How does a front wheel drive car receive better gas milage really, is it less drivetrain loss or is it just motor size alone. I wouldn't mind a rear engine vette.

[SPLN SUX]

How does a front wheel drive car receive better gas milage really, is it less drivetrain loss or is it just motor size alone. I wouldn't mind a rear engine vette.

 

Both. Theres about half the rotating mass all around. A lot of the little 4 bangers are in the neighborhodd of 500-1000lbs lighter than the big V8 cars, and most of that mass is in the drive train. In a FWD you dont have a rear end, a drive shaft, heavier suspension to support the extra weight of the engine and transmission, smaller gas tank in some cases, etc.

[Gergwheel1647545492]

Both. Theres about half the rotating mass all around. A lot of the little 4 bangers are in the neighborhodd of 500-1000lbs lighter than the big V8 cars, and most of that mass is in the drive train. In a FWD you dont have a rear end, a drive shaft, heavier suspension to support the extra weight of the engine and transmission, smaller gas tank in some cases, etc.

If they don't have a differential or a driveshaft then how do they move?

[SPLN SUX]

If they don't have a differential or a driveshaft then how do they move?

 

they have half shafts and integrated diffs, the whole system is more compact. Considering that a V8 motor by itself probably weighs as much as a 1.8-2.0L, tranny and axels combined, ASS-U-ME ing that its not an all aluminum V8 with titanium rods, pins, bolts, etc.

[Gergwheel1647545492]

I know how FWD's work, i was just messing with you. that is why i put the smiley there

[SPLN SUX]

I know how FWD's work, i was just messing with you. that is why i put the smiley there

 

lies

[Ramsey]

Would anybody drive 500hp fwd f-body? Maybe, if it got 40 mpg?

[BuckeyeGT]

screw the government and their stupid liberal asses

 

right on! bush and his liberal chronies!

[Science Abuse]

We don't know how to get 30 percent better mileage from RWD cars.

Not the Gubmints fault, Bob. If Audi can make a 40+mpg AWD A8, you aught to be able to crank out a midsize 30mpg sedan :pathetic:

 

The CAFE doesn't say that the cars need to get Xmpg, just that the lineup must average Xmpg. Get rid of the H2 and H3. Assholes say it's our responcebility to change our demand, and the government needs to motivate us by raising taxes and gas prices.

 

Build mid size RWD cars with 3.0 and below displacement. Dont stuff Live axles and 4L80Es in the bitches. Give them small manuals and mousy IRS. A 3 series Bimmer 3.0 gives you 240bhp for 28mph with AWD. With RWD you can get 300hp/29mpg or 230hp/30mpg. Theres no reason an Ecotec can't be put in a RWD G6 and get 34mpg+.

 

"We don't know how to get 30 percent better mileage from RWD cars" is their problem, no one elses.

[Mr. Jones]

Theres no reason an Ecotec can't be put in a RWD G6 and get 34mpg+.

 

 

Precisely.

 

The eco is great motor. Put the 175-200HP N/A variants w/ a 5 or 6 speed in a 3000lbs sedan and you'll be golden.

 

This is why the American automakers are going in the toilet.

You have to think of creative ways of them making a car that you might buy.

Whereas, you could go to xxx or xxx manufacturer and select a car of your liking that will no doubt outperform it in every way possible..anyway.

[nization]

Disappointing but one of Lutz's comments made me laugh.

 

"Carbon dioxide is a natural byproduct of burning gas and directly proportional to the amount of fuel burned. If we legislate CO(-2) from cars, why not legislate we take one less breath per minute since humans release capricious amounts of CO(-2) each time they exhale?" offered a testy Lutz."

 

That and other idiotic remarks I read in that interview are now actual reasons I feel that I have to not care to ever set foot on a GM lot. Until now, I didn't actually believe that those in charge of GM were stupid, it was just a preference of mine not to buy giant cheap cars that don't get proper fuel efficiency.

 

Like others have said already, what's wrong with 4 and 6 cylindar RWD cars? Mid-sized cars are great, too. They don't have to be giant "full-sized" cars. Hell, by today's standards, the mid-sized cars are yesterday's full sizes and todays compacts were yesterday's mid-sized vehicles.

[ImUrOBGYN]

Not the Gubmints fault, Bob. If Audi can make a 40+mpg AWD A8, you aught to be able to crank out a midsize 30mpg sedan :pathetic:

 

The CAFE doesn't say that the cars need to get Xmpg, just that the lineup must average Xmpg. Get rid of the H2 and H3. Assholes say it's our responcebility to change our demand, and the government needs to motivate us by raising taxes and gas prices.

 

Build mid size RWD cars with 3.0 and below displacement. Dont stuff Live axles and 4L80Es in the bitches. Give them small manuals and mousy IRS. A 3 series Bimmer 3.0 gives you 240bhp for 28mph with AWD. With RWD you can get 300hp/29mpg or 230hp/30mpg. Theres no reason an Ecotec can't be put in a RWD G6 and get 34mpg+.

 

"We don't know how to get 30 percent better mileage from RWD cars" is their problem, no one elses.

 

Exactly. I was thinking this same thing myself.

[SPLN SUX]

Butlook at the price tag on an AWD V8 Audi, and then that of GMs 2 RWD V8's....

 

Corvette - 42,000

GTO - 29,000

 

S4 - 47,000

A8 - 68,000

 

Theres no market for a $50-70k GM vehical that doesnt have the name "Corvette" on it. No one is going to go out and buy a $50,000 Chevy the first year they come out without a familiar name attached to it, and for anyone to buy it, it cant have cheap ass plastic interior panels... this is a change that GM will NEVER make. You know what american vehicals lack? Pride. The people that build them and design them, because thats thier job, not because they want to pour themselves into designing something that represents thier name. I gaurnatee if the were required to stamp someones name and home address of the designer on the inside of the door, the cars wouldnt be built to NEED 30,000, 60,000, and 90,000 mile tune ups.

[Jeffrey]

That blows

[Rally Pat]

Why dont we just go 100% ethanol? Then MPG wont matter nearly as much, and we wont be destroying the environment.

[Jeffrey]

Why dont we just go 100% ethanol? Then MPG wont matter nearly as much, and we wont be destroying the environment.

 

I weep for this generation of CR

[Rally Pat]

Ethanol is 105 octane. You cant tell me you dont want it.

[Science Abuse]

Butlook at the price tag on an AWD V8 Audi, and then that of GMs 2 RWD V8's....

 

Corvette - 42,000

GTO - 29,000

 

S4 - 47,000

A8 - 68,000

Unfair comparison. An A8 is more then it's motor. It's got ever amenity you would want in a luxury automobile. There is no comparison, price/price. My mentioning it was to point out that some one had designed and built a 40mpg+ car that is huge, makes 326bhp, and even weighs 4200lb. But they cheated, they used a TDI.

 

Oh wait, that's not cheating, that's engineering. When will we develop diesels like this? Never, Uh'muricans won't buy cars "with truck motors".

Why? Because American diesel cars have sucked.

Who's fault? not ours.

 

something else that pissed me off:

"Academics assure us that for $200 we can get 30 percent better mileage. If anyone can figure out how to do that for $200 -- or even for $1,000 -- I want them in my office today. Show me how to do it and we'll adopt it," he said.

I'll make it real simple for ya dickhead, with pictures:

http://www.sweetchariots.com/camarobuildclay2.jpg +http://www.oldhouseweb.com/stories/bitmaps/13342/garnet1.jpg

 

Wanna raise MPG? Lower drag. I'm bloody sick of seeing vestigial hoodscoops and wings. Learn to design a sexy car, not a ricer toy. I bet I could coax 30 mpg out of a Lincoln Mark8 and still have it out-perform a Cobalt SS. Lets compare:

Cobalt SS

205hp I4

23/29 mpg

2990lb

 

Lincoln Mark VIII LSC

290hp V8

18/26mpg

3900lb

 

Anyone car to explain to me how that isn't f'king pathetic? 4mpg on the highway, thats it!? Big heavy V8 will pick up 5mpg with an EEC tune (maybe a few hp, too). Put a leaned out PI v6 in there, and you're done.

 

DESIGN A CAR! Don't just add wings, scoop, and broad front fascias and call it "hip". The SSR is the "emo haircut" of 2001. The Aztek? The Fucking AZTEK!? WTF'zor!?

[Nitrousbird]

I love how all the examples of RWD cars doing the gas mileage thing are also lower volume, higher dollar cars.

 

Sure there can be better gas mileage had (as the article said), but it's at a price. A price the consumer isn't willing to pay.

 

But hey, we can just shove a high HP 4-banger under the hood. Guess what people, there is a thing called area under the curve. Peak numbers don't mean crap if what is under the curve isn't up to par.

 

But hey, I've got a great business idea Eric. Let's say I have a product that sells very well for the market it is in (H2 and H3). I make great profits with it, and people demand it. But since it is hurting my average fuel economy ratings, I need to get rid of them to build far less profitable cars that aren't in as big of demand for their market.

 

But hey, let's do some comparisons of Chevy and Pontiac (since those seem to be the focused on brands), with the same size cars the EPA rates that have been mentioned (going by EPA’s classifications).

 

Mid-Size:

Audi A8: 18/25

Chevy Malibu: 21/31 to 24/34

Chevy Monte Carlo: 18/27 to 21/31

Pontiac Grand Prix: 18/27 to 20/30

 

Compact Cars:

Audi S4: 15/21 to 15/23

BMW 328i/xi: 19/28 to 20/30

BMW 335i: 19/28 to 20/29

Chevy Aveo: 26/34 to 27/37

Chevy Optra/Optra 5: 23/30 to 22/32

Pontiac G6: 17/24 to 23/33

 

But wait a second, for the sizes, the GM’s are doing better. Yes, they are lower HP (and WAY lower in price), but not too shabby.

Now let’s list GM’s V8 cars:

 

Corvette: 16/26 to 18/28

Caddy XLR: 15/22 to 17/27

Caddy CTS-V: 15/24

Caddy STS: 14/21 to 17/27

Chevy Monte Carlo SS: 18/27

Buick Lucerne: 17/25

Caddy DTS: 15/24 to 15/25

Chevy Impala SS: 18/27

Pontiac Grand Prix GXP: 18/27

 

Hmmm….doesn’t look like GM’s V8 cars get that bad of gas mileage to me. But let’s dig further. Nothing out there touches the Vette in terms of performance/gas mileage for anywhere close to its price, so no bother looking further. XLR competition is the SL series Benz, and it gets worse mileage.

 

CTS-V , STS, and DTS? Comparably quick 3/5/7 series cars, Benz’s, and Audi’s aren’t any better (actually, most are worse). Lexus does pretty decently, but not really in the same performance categories either. Same goes with Acura.

Nothing really to compare to the FWD V8 GM’s in terms of performance/cost, and not really the scope of the article at hand anyway.

 

But let’s get the numbers straight before touting off about how the Germans are getting it done and GM’s get the worst gas mileage ever.

 

Edit: Numbers based on 2007 model year EPA ratings, since we are currently on model year 2007.

[Jeffrey]

Ethanol is 105 octane. You cant tell me you dont want it.

 

Yeah that is nice, but what about the fact that it takes alot more ethanol to get the same power as gasoline. Not sure on the facts but it is something like twice as much ethanol to get the same power results as gasoline. So much for mpg, since these flex fuel cars get next to shit for mpg with E-85

[Science Abuse]

Seriously Joe, that post was a joke. It's pretty pathetic what you tried to do with the numbers there.

 

1: Put an A8 next to a fucking mailbu, Monte Carlo, and Grand prix, tell me they're the same bloody size. The A8 is much bigger, different class.

 

2: The Audi S4 and BMW 3 series are not compact cars. It's hilarious how you're stacking these brackets assuming that no one has ever seen a car. 3xx in the same class and an Aveo? You're fuckin blind.

Also, you're comparing an S4 to an Aveo. Try a normal A4, not their top of the line sports car.

http://www.carpages.co.uk/guide/@images/audi/audi-a4.jpg

http://www.elepent.com/photos/chevrolet/aveo.jpg

Oh yeah, same fuckin car!

The A4 is a mid size and gets 22/31 mpg, get your cars straight.

Here's some math:

 

Audi A8 wheelbase: 121" x 204"

A4 104" x 180"

A6 111" x 193" (29mpg)

BMW 3 series 108" x 180"

 

Malibu 106" x 188"

Aveo 96" x 169"

 

Finally: THE CARS ARE NOT EXPENSIVE BECAUSE OF THEIR MOTORS. You pay more for the car, and you get ALOT more car for the money. Compare an A8 to anything GM makes, seriously, do it.

 

The point of bringing up these cars isn't their price, it's what they're doing. If audi can get 31mpg out of an AWD mid size sedan, GM had damn well better be able to get better then that from a Malibu. With FWD and much less power, they only get 3mpg more. If you want a 240hp v6, you get 290hp Mark VIII mpg. Audis 255hp V6 gets more power, better mileage, AND is AWD.

 

Why? Why are AWD cars matching and beating GMs FWD car mileage? Try this: GET THE CAMS OUT OF YOUR ENGINE AND ONTO THE HEAD! For god sake, engineer a fucking engine block! How long have they been keeping the pushrod V6 and V8 around? They just don't want to spend cash on developing a new one. Everyone else has done it except Dodge, and look at how awesome they are doing.

[98fiveseven1647545503]

I weep for this generation of CR

sad thing is he is a "senior member"...

 

The american companies are lacking "imagination" in my opinion.