new abu ghraib photos

[cptn janks]

eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind...

 

as for getting evidence from torture, is the evidence really that reliable? i mean hell, get tortured enough, and youd admit to starting the chicago fire... doesnt exactly make it true though...

[TTQ B4U]

Mahatma Gandhi and his ideals don't win wars.....but they will get you killed, especially when fighting folks who don't believe in rules....and they give liberals a nice quote to put up now and then too.

 

So far as confessions....sure, I'll admit to starting the Chicago fire....but I'll likely give up plenty of good information before it gets to that point. Even if it's a rarity, that rarity is worth it vs doing nothing. Especially when the difference between winning and losing is death.

 

eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind...

 

as for getting evidence from torture, is the evidence really that reliable? i mean hell, get tortured enough, and youd admit to starting the chicago fire... doesnt exactly make it true though...

[Guest Hal]

Torture can and cannot be an effective way of getting information. There's not discussion needed on that. Taking a break from psych I was reading one of my new books and there was a good section on this topic. The section deals with rescue efforts for a man down. These people get only what they deserve, nothing more, nothing less.

 

"We are dealing with an enemy that is without state sponsorship and feels it has a religious mandate to torture and murder prisoners and to abuse their corpses. We are not talking about Abu Ghraib-style humiliation or mistreatment. I'm speaking of dismemberment and mutilation. We first saw this with the dragging of bodies through the streets of Mogadishu, Somalia. Now we see videotaped beheadings of contractors, civilians, and Iraqi security forces taken hostage. It takes no stretch of imagination to picture the inhumane treatment that awaits an American special forces warrior who has the misfortune to be taken alive by this enemy."

[TTQ B4U]

this can only help the worlds view of the US

 

Ask the fucking world which photo bothers them more

 

Let me just say that at least the fucking prick in the second photo was alive 10 minutes after his picture was taken. :finger:

 

Sorry for my strong opinion. I don't mean to direct it at you.

 

But I will go on record as I really don't give a shit what the rest of the world feels about us. They will never like us and never have. I do feel the United States has done way more good than bad and way more good than most every other nation that comes forth with their opinions.

 

http://www.pbase.com/pdqgp/image/93554767.jpg

 

or

 

http://www.wired.com/images/slideshow/2008/02/gallery_abu_ghraib/abu8.jpg

[Guest Hal]

Can't see your top pic, but, judging from the URL I know what it is.

[TTQ B4U]

Fixed......and Fuck the guy who think images can't be hijacked....they aren't even his images to begin with.

 

Can't see your top pic, but, judging from the URL I know what it is.

[Nate1647545505]

Torture can and cannot be an effective way of getting information. There's not discussion needed on that. Taking a break from psych I was reading one of my new books and there was a good section on this topic. The section deals with rescue efforts for a man down. These people get only what they deserve, nothing more, nothing less.

 

"We are dealing with an enemy that is without state sponsorship and feels it has a religious mandate to torture and murder prisoners and to abuse their corpses. We are not talking about Abu Ghraib-style humiliation or mistreatment. I'm speaking of dismemberment and mutilation. We first saw this with the dragging of bodies through the streets of Mogadishu, Somalia. Now we see videotaped beheadings of contractors, civilians, and Iraqi security forces taken hostage. It takes no stretch of imagination to picture the inhumane treatment that awaits an American special forces warrior who has the misfortune to be taken alive by this enemy."

 

Not only this war, but in previous wars: Vietcong strapping bombs to children, or mixing ice with broken glass and giving it to the troopers, Japanese beheading POWs or downed pilots, etc - and wars to come.

 

That Somalia tid bit just reminded me how mad I was when I read that in Black Hawk Down, and later the recreation in the movie.

[Guest Hal]

That movie just makes me incredibly angry. There were good things that came from those SOF men who died out there. A lot about combat medicine and tactical care was learned. It makes me want to graduate faster so I can enlist and do some good.

 

That was an excerpt from Down Range by Dick Couch. He was a team leader with SEAL Team One in Vietnam. He knows better than anyone in this thread about the pain and ugliness of war.

[Adam]

so you guys are openly for treating other people like that, not saying fighting not saying trying to stay alive, but to people you have in captivity under your care? You are openly for it even when you know it is wrong to do just because someplace somewhere someone has killed someone else? Combat is different. Its weakness when you can't take a higher road.

[TTQ B4U]

I don't believe they had any horrible in-humane things done to them so the whole story is a waste of political BS. Were some of the photos being released in poor taste?...perhaps....but that's a far cry from a big deal worth more than a simple artical in the paper.

 

They were taken in as prisoners to gather intelligence on the enemy /end of story. They specifically, (not just just someone, somewhere) wouldn't think twice about killing our military and likely have.

 

Personally, they should be interrogated by stern means to extract what they know and then sentenced to death for their crimes. I'll give them a clean death with a needle and make that the high road if it makes the world feel better.

 

Weak is what we as a nation have become by giving a shit about criminals and even war criminals like we do. So much time, money, heartache and resources are wasted on lives that aren't worth shit in our society it makes me sick. Most of our captive criminals should be put down like the pounds do dogs that can't be socialized to exist in the real world. I see zero difference and in fact side with the dogs more as these fucks as human beings have made a choice to do what they have done. Animals are typically not so guilty from their own means.

 

Companies fire the weak and useless that can't contribute to better the good of the whole and society should do the same. I'm sick and tired of paying for folks that commit crimes. I say give them a choice to fight it out on a deserted island and live like true savages among their own kind (to appease the liberals of the world) or die by needle.

 

We have enough issues to deal with in this world. Like we need to give a crap about the folks in this thread when there are children in other countries that are being mamed and slaughtered by yet more fucking criminals.

 

 

so you guys are openly for treating other people like that, not saying fighting not saying trying to stay alive, but to people you have in captivity under your care? You are openly for it even when you know it is wrong to do just because someplace somewhere someone has killed someone else? Combat is different. Its weakness when you can't take a higher road.

[SpaceGhost]

The smart ones ate a bullet before being captured.

[Adam]

its not an issue of how bad they are, its an issue of how bad we are. An excuse to do someone else wrong is just that, an excuse. Don't see how it has to do with our weird prison system. What is really fucked up is that people always have to take pictures of dumb shit. Why in the hell would you take pics of you doing something even remotely illegal and then send it to someone or save them for someone to find.

[TTQ B4U]

That's if you even consider what they did wrong. I don't nor do I think they should have been made an example of. Besides, no matter how good or bad we try to be, we aren't going to change their belief in the Civilized Western World. IMO the way we fight and carry on during war is directly related to who we're fighting. Winners don't go to a gun fight with a pocket knife.

 

If we followed your train of thought in WWII and hadn't dropped the bombs on those poor innocent Japanese, who knows what the outcome would have been. We need to go back to a time when real decisions were being made.

 

its not an issue of how bad they are, its an issue of how bad we are. An excuse to do someone else wrong is just that, an excuse. Don't see how it has to do with our weird prison system.

[coupe_no]

Terrorism-

1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.

 

I would guess these pictures were never supposed to go public. Do you enjoy failing in most of your opinionated posts?

 

ok thanks you made my point clearer...?

 

thanks for bringing up the beheadings, did your little robot brain ever stop to wonder why the 'terrorists' in the video were beheading an obvious corpse (that means already dead) of course not, because Big Brother told you what the truth is. its called science and you must have slept through that too

 

We have enough issues to deal with in this world. Like we need to give a crap about the folks in this thread when there are children in other countries that are being mamed and slaughtered by yet more fucking criminals.

thats true but you arent going to do it from behind your computer screen

[Guest Hal]

ok thanks you made my point clearer...?

 

thanks for bringing up the beheadings, did your little robot brain ever stop to wonder why the 'terrorists' in the video were beheading an obvious corpse (that means already dead) of course not, because Big Brother told you what the truth is. its called science and you must have slept through that too

Your point failed moron. The things that happened at Abu Ghraib were never supposed to be seen. That would mean they were not to be used to provoke terror.

 

You are incredulous to believe the things you say. A man screaming while being beheaded (as I was told from someone who watched the video, I will not watch that) serves no purpose. Even beheading a corpse and showing it is terrorism. We do not distribute anything designed to provoke fear. I'm sorry my "robot brain" is able to process things on a much higher level than yours.

[Guest Hal]

Oh, and I did not sleep through science. I guess being enrolled as a full time college student (on the dean's list no less) at 15 makes me stupid.

[Guest Hal]

Triple post cause I'm robotically amazing.

[smokin5s]

does anyone know why the dogs were barking at a naked guy? maybe he was trying to escape or something.... maybe we are just assuming something in these pictures that are not fact... OR maybe they have some crazy photochop skillz j/k

[TTQ B4U]

I watched most of the vids that were posted and those beheadings were clearly alive. None of them appeared dead as they were all either giving their last few words they were told to read or they were sitting up and crying. Trust me, they were alive. Not sure I see a difference either way though.

 

thanks for bringing up the beheadings, did your little robot brain ever stop to wonder why the 'terrorists' in the video were beheading an obvious corpse (that means already dead) of course not, because Big Brother told you what the truth is. its called science and you must have slept through that too

 

We as a country are doing something about it. Do you think we are only focused on the Middle East?

 

thats true but you arent going to do it from behind your computer screen

[Jelloman4571647545499]

I cant believe you people are shocked by this kinda thing. They have been doing it for hundreds of years. What does it matter what you people think they will still be doing it after we are all gone.

[MaTS1200]

I have principles and beliefs that I stand by when it comes to the war going on now....eye for an eye is one of them. Fuck the enemy terrorists :finger: ....do you really think what happened at Abu Ghraib was that bad? :doh:

 

Have you hugged a enemy terrorist that has killed a US Soldier or a terrorist that beheaded a journalist lately? Maybe you should.....then you too can die with your principles in good standing. Not me, I'd rather take out the enemy and live....and if that involves making a grown man kneel down nude on some sharp rocks in order to cough up some evidence or stand naked and humiliated in front of females soldiers then so be it.

 

At least I'll give them the courtesy of not chopping off their head or gassing them and their entire village......but hey, at least we're following the Geneva Conventions and are at least respected by the enemy who is out to kill us all.

 

"Dear Mom, sorry I had to die today, but I was over in Iraq fighting and the enemy terrorist, a 13 year old boy, I was facing ran out of ammo so instead of killing him and breaking the principles I live my life by, I attempted to take him into custody to perhaps one day save his soul. However, I didn't see that he had a bomb strapped to his chest. Maybe if I come back and live to fight again in another life, I'll just shoot him in the head so that I can come home and actually contribute to society and the world. Love you always. Your son."

 

This saved me a lot of typing. Thanks.

[trbmiata]

Actually yes, 7th grade history is the first class I fell asleep in. They are your principles. The country is really cool in that it evolves. Principles that founded the nation included slavery, a form of torture.

 

This debate can go on forever, I will not change your mind and you will not change mine. Unfortunately, I have 8 weeks of psych to catch up on, so I will not be able to amuse myself any further.

 

first off, Adam give up your dealing with conservatives who just dont get it. Example, why and how Bush lead us to the postion we are in today.

 

As far as slavery goes the consitution never mentions the word slave or slavery. The first U.S. national government began under the Articles of Confederation, adopted in 1781. This document said nothing about slavery. It left the power to regulate slavery, to the individual states. When orginally drafting the consitution it in fact addressed outlawing slavery, but the southern states would not agree. Their main goal was to secure a new government. They feared antagonizing the South. Most of them saw slavery as a dying institution with no economic future. They had no way of knowing that in five years the cotton gin would be invented, which would make growing cotton on plantations very profitable. Hal go back and take another history course. THe basic principle which this nations stands for does not include slavery. Equal rights is a diffrent story but your talking torture.

[Guest Hal]

first off, Adam give up your dealing with conservatives who just dont get it. Example, why and how Bush lead us to the postion we are in today.

 

As far as slavery goes the consitution never mentions the word slave or slavery. The first U.S. national government began under the Articles of Confederation, adopted in 1781. This document said nothing about slavery. It left the power to regulate slavery, to the individual states. When orginally drafting the consitution it in fact addressed outlawing slavery, but the southern states would not agree. Their main goal was to secure a new government. They feared antagonizing the South. Most of them saw slavery as a dying institution with no economic future. They had no way of knowing that in five years the cotton gin would be invented, which would make growing cotton on plantations very profitable. Hal go back and take another history course. THe basic principle which this nations stands for does not include slavery. Equal rights is a diffrent story but your talking torture.

Oh, I see what you did there. You took something I said and used it to show your point. The only problem is the context. While there was no mention in official papers of slavery, it was the backbone of a large part of the nation. It was a driving force in the economy. I'm sorry, you were not successful. If you want to fail at reading, please go ahead. Notice, I never mentioned the constitution. Interestingly, something does not have to be written to be a foundation of a nation. Thanks, you may fail again later.

[TTQ B4U]

The US Constitution didn't need to use the word slavery, but if you review http://www.usconstitution.net/ and search for the noted sitations, you'll see the exact word slavery didn't need mentioned to know what they were talking about.

 

Section 9 of Article I allowed the continued "importation" of such persons,

 

Section 2 of Article IV prohibited the provision of assistance to escaping persons and required their return if successful

 

Section 2 of Article I defined other persons as "three-fifths" of a person for calculations of each state's official population.

 

Article V prohibited any amendments or legislation changing these provisions until 1808 which as you noted, let the states decide and is what ultimately led to the Civil War.

 

As far as slavery goes the consitution never mentions the word slave or slavery.

 

I would argue that point since the Articles of Confederation was nothing more than an agreement among the states vs a founding of the national government as we know it today.

 

Add in belief of Thomas Jefferson, one of our founding fathers was to own slaves and even go so far as to bang out five kids with one of them. But of course I'm sure his "principles" such as this were excluded from his political career and founding of our great nation

 

THe basic principle which this nations stands for does not include slavery. Equal rights is a diffrent story but your talking torture.

 

But back to the topic at hand.....what happened here is hardly what I would call torture. This shit was basically a war time frat house initiation.

[Guest Hal]

first off, Adam give up your dealing with conservatives who just dont get it. Example, why and how Bush lead us to the postion we are in today.

PS. It takes congress to declare war.

 

PPS. There were plenty of dems who voted to go to war.

 

PPPS. The president did not, and could not, do this by himself.

 

PPPPS. Please take a military history class. This was happening long before G.W. took office. I'd recommend International Studies 553 at OSU. That is a class called Terror and Terrorism.