smokin5s Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 Because it still requires faith to even be atheist and it tends to require more faith to go against cuture norms and against the grain. Plus alot of atheists consider themselves extreamly educated usually more educated than the majority even though they usually are not they are just more close minded. It is not always the case but that is how it tends to be. Dumbest thing I've ever read... Athiests aren't typically closed minded.. Religious people are closed minded because they won't even acknowledge that we could be right. I will admit that I have no idea if there is a higher power or not, but I do know that if we do have a creator it is nothing like the skewed deity that we have painted it to be. Organized religion is a means of control... Nothing more, nothing less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Eat Rice Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Dumbest thing I've ever read... Athiests aren't typically closed minded.. Religious people are closed minded because they won't even acknowledge that we could be right. I will admit that I have no idea if there is a higher power or not, but I do know that if we do have a creator it is nothing like the skewed deity that we have painted it to be. Organized religion is a means of control... Nothing more, nothing less. Again that is your thoughts and I respect that. Here is my take on what you have said. The idea that usually follows religion is that this world is much bigger than us and the here and now. We are mearly a small little speck and nothing more. We were not made to have all of the answers because our minds can not even began to grasp the bigger picture and what all this world and universe holds. Only one person should posess that ultmite power. That takes a quite an open mind in my book to believe in something and an idea like this. Athiests are nothing more than people out to discredit everything that they can usually by a means of convincing someone of their ways. No one is ever convinced to go to church, or to have faith in God they mearly do it because of the inner drive and feelings inside them, they do not need evidence to believe, and have faith. Again evidence of an open mind as far as I see it. Atheists do not see it this way and feel the need to have evidence to everything before they can believe it, if you can not see it, touch it, smell it, converse with it, or someone has proven it then it is not real. Evidence of close mindedness again. Also for one to actually think that there is answers to everything in this world and that there is nothing more to this world than the here and now thus stating your life then has no meanings or porpose seems quite close minded to me and somewhat selfish in nature. A good example is look at all of the people who have posted here most are publicaly bashing religion and feel the need to spread their feelings and bring them out no matter what the cost and usually downgrade any comment made by someone who thinks differently. I have been the only one to even try to take you guys on and it is not because I am a bible thumper (most Bible thumpers are not talking here), and I have mearly stated my points in a non downgrading way. Just simply stated the truth in my eyes. I am a fairly new believer and I have done it all on my own and am just starting this new way of life so by all means I am no expert but no one is a expert in religion, or life in general one is mearly a student. I whole heartly acknowledge that you COULD be right however do I think so? Absoutly not. Also you claim to be an Atheist but you do not know if there is a higher power or not? You are not an Atheist then you are mearly confused and there is a difference. I stood on the fence like you are doing for years and was a very unhappy person living with zero direction and now that I have accepted God and have began to try and live a life of faith shit seems to be much easier and I am also much happier on a day to day basis because now my life has a sense of meaning. Also I do not believe in organsied religion (that is just another fortune 500 company in my mind) as well because you do not have to go to church to worship God, you do that on an every day basis with EVERYTHING that you do not just on Sundays. Religion is a way of life not a means of control, no one is forcing anyone to practice or go to church for that matter it is done out of free will... I would love to hear your thoughts so feel free to share. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallard Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 What our founders did not want was national established religion because that was one of the reasons why we went to war with Britian in the first place. We as a people were being told what to believe instead of having to freedom to have faith in whatever we wanted without the fear of being inprisioned or physicially harmed. Really? I thought it was taxation without representation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritas Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 I think it's awesome... the sooner we get rid of that nonsense the sooner we can evolve as a scioety. It is awesome. Religion has no place in a courtroom. Or school unless its teaching about the varying different sects of it. Why anyone would have a problem with it coming down is beyond me. More than likely anyone who has a problem with that is more than likely far, far too conservative for my tastes anyhow so don't worry about em smokin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Eat Rice Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Really? I thought it was taxation without representation. That is very true as well like I said ONE of the reasons that THE reason, there were more than one reasons why we went to war, a seventh grade history book told me that. I had a few thoughts pop into my head just now on my short drive to get a pack of cigs and they are some good points to ponder on so I will share them. People are looking for evidence on either side to support their views. Here is how I see it. The evidence is all around us. Water was put on earth for us to drink because water is the substance of life. Without water we will not survive that is proven thus giving water a purpose. Trees were placed on earth not to just enjoy their fall colors and the beauty but also because trees convert co2 into oxygen thus supplying us with air to breath and giving trees a purpose. Deer were placed on earth not to just enjoy their majestic beauty but as a source of protien to things higher on the food chain thus giving them a purpose. Songbirds were not placed just for their sensual music but also to eat worms, and bugs keeping their population under control thus giving them a purpose. The list can go on and on. Everything has a purpose and our world is a system of checks and balences set up so perfectly that the idea of chaos and chance seems far to un-likely to me. This is really all the evidence that I need at the end of the day I guess. Could I be wrong? Absoutly and I will never be given this answer till the day I die so I am not going to waste my life searching for the answers instead I am going to live my life to its fullest possibilities, potential, and best way I see fit, and accept the idea that there is something else in control. That is my way to being happy and really that is all that matters to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 We were not made to have all of the answers because our minds can not even began to grasp the bigger picture and what all this world and universe holds. Only one person should posess that ultmite power. That takes a quite an open mind in my book to believe in something and an idea like this. Who then ? The church ? God himself although if that is true, then which god? The christian god isn't the oldest. Why should anyone take another man's opinion over his own if that man can't make a logical argument as to why. Believing in such an idea is not "open-minded", it's simply wishful thinking. Athiests are nothing more than people out to discredit everything that they can usually by a means of convincing someone of their ways. The point of Atheism is not to "discredit everything", although that should be everyone's personal default scrutiny level regardless. Any working system should be able to withstand repeated attempts at "discrediting". Faith asks one to believe in the unbelievable, which is fine on a personal level, but to base laws, or god forbid court proceedings on such drivel is asinine. Do you shop for cars this way ? Someone pulls up to you with a piece of shit they said was mint on the phone, engine knocking, and screeching and sounding like its about die, but they tell you to trust them, what motive could they have to selling you something that isn't in tip-top shape, just as advertised. Why is asking for evidence of something "close-minded", as you call it ? Not blindingly accepting what you are told is close-minded ? You are actually repeating an age-old religious defense. Those who do not believe, are ignorant. At best it just means we disagree, at worst the minority of un-believers are subjugated, outcasted, tortured, or even outright destroyed. This is not hyperbole, it happens all the time. It's happening right now. Remember that 9/11 happened, because of religion. Even more awesome, that EVIL, EVIL MUSLIM RELIGION(it can be pretty barbaric and terrible), comes from the same region of the earth as Christianity, and Judaism. As a matter fact they are all related by Abraham. No one is ever convinced to go to church, or to have faith in God they mearly do it because of the inner drive and feelings inside them, they do not need evidence to believe, and have faith. That is completely false. One's religion is almost always based on what religion that particular person was raised to believe as a child, which is almost always determined by that person's place of birth. It is called Childhood Indoctrination. If you are in the United States you will almost always believe in some variation of the christian god, to the tune of around 75%. Now you may not have been raised to believe in anything and found one's way to some form of Christianity, and believe such an event to be profoundly special, but it is not. You are mathematically more likely to find Christianity, because you are more exposed to it. If you lived in Saudi Arabia, you'd more likely be a muslim, or anywhere in Asia, a muslim, or Buddhist. If you were indoctrinated as most who believe in some shape or form are, your evidence is that those around you in your church, family functions, or fellowships also believe in the same thing. It is power in numbers. The main drive to "find god" as many call it, is simply out of fear. Fear of death, fear of losing one's consciousness, fear of being separated from the people one loves, and fear of the unknown. It is simply easier to pretend it's all taken care of if you follow "whatever". Also for one to actually think that there is answers to everything in this world and that there is nothing more to this world than the here and now thus stating your life then has no meanings or porpose seems quite close minded to me and somewhat selfish in nature. Actually the opposite is true. Religion is the entity pretending to offer all the answers. Religion has life figured out from birth to death to afterlife. Up in the clouds, 70 virgins, a thousand points of light and blah blah blah. As an Atheist practicing Agnosticism, I am perfectly happy admitting that I do not know how life "happened" on this earth. Could it have been The Big Bang, or Allah, or The 50 Foot Spaghetti Monster, or a tiny Unicorn orbiting Saturn's rings? Sure could have, but I can't know for sure, I can only estimate the probability to my best. Here are the things I do know. The bible was written by men. Men are corruptible, and can be evil, and self-serving. Hell, the bible itself, is a collection of man's constant, monumental failure to be decent, even when that man is inspired by god himself(Moses breaking the first commandment tablets, Judas ratting out Hey-Seus, Samson allowing an EVIL EVIL woman to corrupt his flowing locks, ADAM EATING OF THE FRUIT). So now do I think the Bible is true, or do I think it is a complex system of control, and revenue-generation that plays on mankinds natural fear of the unknown. I'll choose probability for $1000 Alex. Go ahead and ask me if I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Evolution happened on the macro level ? I don't, and I can't know. What I do know is I can see evolution happen on the smaller scale, and that I could at least fathom it, at a larger scale. However that is not proof. The main difference is this. If the scientific community as a general whole, finds what they believe to be a more repeatably testable answer, they will change their minds upon evidence. Religion refuses such tests, because that in and of itself, is not faith. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 This is to make up for the above wall of text. http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k21/sol740/3.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Space reserved for titty triple. http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k21/sol740/Adriana_lima_10.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowBalt Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 (edited) Who then ? The church ? God himself although if that is true, then which god? The christian god isn't the oldest. Why should anyone take another man's opinion over his own if that man can't make a logical argument as to why. Believing in such an idea is not "open-minded", it's simply wishful thinking. The point of Atheism is not to "discredit everything", although that should be everyone's personal default scrutiny level regardless. Any working system should be able to withstand repeated attempts at "discrediting". Faith asks one to believe in the unbelievable, which is fine on a personal level, but to base laws, or god forbid court proceedings on such drivel is asinine. Do you shop for cars this way ? Someone pulls up to you with a piece of shit they said was mint on the phone, engine knocking, and screeching and sounding like its about die, but they tell you to trust them, what motive could they have to selling you something that isn't in tip-top shape, just as advertised. Why is asking for evidence of something "close-minded", as you call it ? Not blindingly accepting what you are told is close-minded ? You are actually repeating an age-old religious defense. Those who do not believe, are ignorant. At best it just means we disagree, at worst the minority of un-believers are subjugated, outcasted, tortured, or even outright destroyed. This is not hyperbole, it happens all the time. It's happening right now. Remember that 9/11 happened, because of religion. Even more awesome, that EVIL, EVIL MUSLIM RELIGION(it can be pretty barbaric and terrible), comes from the same region of the earth as Christianity, and Judaism. As a matter fact they are all related by Abraham. That is completely false. One's religion is almost always based on what religion that particular person was raised to believe as a child, which is almost always determined by that person's place of birth. It is called Childhood Indoctrination. If you are in the United States you will almost always believe in some variation of the christian god, to the tune of around 75%. Now you may not have been raised to believe in anything and found one's way to some form of Christianity, and believe such an event to be profoundly special, but it is not. You are mathematically more likely to find Christianity, because you are more exposed to it. If you lived in Saudi Arabia, you'd more likely be a muslim, or anywhere in Asia, a muslim, or Buddhist. If you were indoctrinated as most who believe in some shape or form are, your evidence is that those around you in your church, family functions, or fellowships also believe in the same thing. It is power in numbers. The main drive to "find god" as many call it, is simply out of fear. Fear of death, fear of losing one's consciousness, fear of being separated from the people one loves, and fear of the unknown. It is simply easier to pretend it's all taken care of if you follow "whatever". Actually the opposite is true. Religion is the entity pretending to offer all the answers. Religion has life figured out from birth to death to afterlife. Up in the clouds, 70 virgins, a thousand points of light and blah blah blah. As an Atheist practicing Agnosticism, I am perfectly happy admitting that I do not know how life "happened" on this earth. Could it have been The Big Bang, or Allah, or The 50 Foot Spaghetti Monster, or a tiny Unicorn orbiting Saturn's rings? Sure could have, but I can't know for sure, I can only estimate the probability to my best. Here are the things I do know. The bible was written by men. Men are corruptible, and can be evil, and self-serving. Hell, the bible itself, is a collection of man's constant, monumental failure to be decent, even when that man is inspired by god himself(Moses breaking the first commandment tablets, Judas ratting out Hey-Seus, Samson allowing an EVIL EVIL woman to corrupt his flowing locks, ADAM EATING OF THE FRUIT). So now do I think the Bible is true, or do I think it is a complex system of control, and revenue-generation that plays on mankinds natural fear of the unknown. I'll choose probability for $1000 Alex. Go ahead and ask me if I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Evolution happened on the macro level ? I don't, and I can't know. What I do know is I can see evolution happen on the smaller scale, and that I could at least fathom it, at a larger scale. However that is not proof. The main difference is this. If the scientific community as a general whole, finds what they believe to be a more repeatably testable answer, they will change their minds upon evidence. Religion refuses such tests, because that in and of itself, is not faith. Thank you. FINALLY some reason. ----------------------------------- 1796 Treaty of Tripoli states that the United States was "in no sense founded on the Christian religion." Written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams. ----------------------------------- ----------------------------------- "Because it still requires faith to even be atheist and it tends to require more faith to go against cuture norms and against the grain. Plus alot of atheists consider themselves extreamly educated usually more educated than the majority even though they usually are not they are just more close minded. It is not always the case but that is how it tends to be." This is quite possibly the dumbest thing I read. Edited March 8, 2011 by YellowBalt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboGoKart Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Again that is your thoughts and I respect that. Here is my take on what you have said. The idea that usually follows religion is that this world is much bigger than us and the here and now. We are mearly a small little speck and nothing more. We were not made to have all of the answers because our minds can not even began to grasp the bigger picture and what all this world and universe holds. Only one person should posess that ultmite power. That takes a quite an open mind in my book to believe in something and an idea like this. Athiests are nothing more than people out to discredit everything that they can usually by a means of convincing someone of their ways. No one is ever convinced to go to church, or to have faith in God they mearly do it because of the inner drive and feelings inside them, they do not need evidence to believe, and have faith. Again evidence of an open mind as far as I see it. Atheists do not see it this way and feel the need to have evidence to everything before they can believe it, if you can not see it, touch it, smell it, converse with it, or someone has proven it then it is not real. Evidence of close mindedness again. Also for one to actually think that there is answers to everything in this world and that there is nothing more to this world than the here and now thus stating your life then has no meanings or porpose seems quite close minded to me and somewhat selfish in nature. A good example is look at all of the people who have posted here most are publicaly bashing religion and feel the need to spread their feelings and bring them out no matter what the cost and usually downgrade any comment made by someone who thinks differently. I have been the only one to even try to take you guys on and it is not because I am a bible thumper (most Bible thumpers are not talking here), and I have mearly stated my points in a non downgrading way. Just simply stated the truth in my eyes. I am a fairly new believer and I have done it all on my own and am just starting this new way of life so by all means I am no expert but no one is a expert in religion, or life in general one is mearly a student. I whole heartly acknowledge that you COULD be right however do I think so? Absoutly not. Also you claim to be an Atheist but you do not know if there is a higher power or not? You are not an Atheist then you are mearly confused and there is a difference. I stood on the fence like you are doing for years and was a very unhappy person living with zero direction and now that I have accepted God and have began to try and live a life of faith shit seems to be much easier and I am also much happier on a day to day basis because now my life has a sense of meaning. Also I do not believe in organsied religion (that is just another fortune 500 company in my mind) as well because you do not have to go to church to worship God, you do that on an every day basis with EVERYTHING that you do not just on Sundays. Religion is a way of life not a means of control, no one is forcing anyone to practice or go to church for that matter it is done out of free will... I would love to hear your thoughts so feel free to share. Well said. The only thing I disagree with is the church part. While I agree that you can worship God in an every day setting, we also need that common ground with other people who believe the same way we do. Just like this forum. We all came together because we like cars. We get on here, see how other people's progress on their cars is going, share our life with cars, and talk about whatever. Why? Because we all like this stuff lol. Do we need to come on here to like cars? To want to keep building them, and racing them? No. Does it sometimes inspire or provoke us to go back out into the garage and do more werk? Yeah lol. We're made to need this connection. IMO, same principle applies to church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokin5s Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Rob, I have just gained an enormous amount of respect for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokin5s Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Dave, I think that Rob pretty much summed up my feelings on the matter. Just think about this and don't answer me, what is more probable.... organized religion was made by leadership to find a way to control the masses, or Moses parted the red sea, or any other crazy story that happened a few thousand years ago? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Eat Rice Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Dave, I think that Rob pretty much summed up my feelings on the matter. Just think about this and don't answer me, what is more probable.... organized religion was made by leadership to find a way to control the masses, or Moses parted the red sea, or any other crazy story that happened a few thousand years ago? I have thought about this and this is what I am thinking. The unexplained happens everyday. Call it miricles, paranormal, or alians. May people tend to ignore them or not notice but it does happen. I really have a hard time thinking that the Bible is just one big conspiricy against humanity seems quite far fetched to me really. Almost more far fetched than a sea parting or the Great Flood bla bla bla. If it was this way I have a feeling the Bible would have lost its credibility by now and would not be the best selling book ever. Well said. The only thing I disagree with is the church part. While I agree that you can worship God in an every day setting, we also need that common ground with other people who believe the same way we do. Just like this forum. We all came together because we like cars. We get on here, see how other people's progress on their cars is going, share our life with cars, and talk about whatever. Why? Because we all like this stuff lol. Do we need to come on here to like cars? To want to keep building them, and racing them? No. Does it sometimes inspire or provoke us to go back out into the garage and do more werk? Yeah lol. We're made to need this connection. IMO, same principle applies to church. I see your point and thank you for your comment. As I said I am quite new to this stuff. Hell Im only part of the way through A Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren. But that book is helping me make sense out of alot of questions that I used to have. For a long time I stood on the fence and tended to see things like Rob but give some more life experiance I am forced to change teams and am a much more happier person for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Eat Rice Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Now Rob you get a post made specially for you hope you feel special ha ha ha. First we should not have all the answers because that is not what we are made for or so they say. We are simply humans and that is all that we are suppost to be. We are not special in any way just because we have a sense of logic and knowledge, hell actually all species posess this as well because they also have a brain. Secondly many of your next points only hold true if someone was taken to church as a young child and shown the way as thay call it, but even then once they become an adult they can choose for themselves on wheather or not they want to believe and they still choose to believe. No one is forcing them to at that point. As for me I did not grow up in a religious family, I never went to church, bible study, or church camps and all of that. My parents let me decide for myself and said I was more than welcome to attend, they would even take me if need be but I never went so all of your points do not hold true in my case. I just recently found my way at 25 years old and it was not found out of fear for me. For me it was more of a search for meaning and propose in my life because I felt so empty inside and that is the only thing that seems to be filling me up. Also I do not think of the Muslim religion in that way because actually it is a very very peaceful religion at its core it is the wack job extreamists that are giving it a bad name and every religion has these people. Now as for the Bible and the teachings within its pages. It was written to show that every man sins period then end. We were not ment for perfection and the constant prusit of it will drive a person insane. The point is that we are to accept our inperfections and sins and simply ask for forgiveness and continue on with our lives not constantly dwell on the past and things that we have done. Now what gets me about the scientists statement is ( and this has happend many of times and been documented however I do not want to spend the time looking for it I am hungry and want to eat dinner:)) when on their death beds many call in a preacher and then ask for their last rights and renounce their old ways and all of a sudden become belivers in God. This seems quite odd to me that at someones most vunerable time, usually a time of silence, with long periods of alone time to reflect that they will all of a sudden decide that what they have thought and fought to prove their entire lives is all of a sudden wrong. There is something with that, some may call that devine intervention. I am shocked that no one has tried to pick apart my second post about the checks and balences yet but that one is gonna be a hard one no matter how intellegent you are. Also rod you do not have to appoligise for your long post this is a very deep topic and if someone cant take the 3 mins to read it then they do not disserve to be in this discussion IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboGoKart Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 I see your point and thank you for your comment. As I said I am quite new to this stuff. Hell Im only part of the way through A Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren. But that book is helping me make sense out of alot of questions that I used to have. For a long time I stood on the fence and tended to see things like Rob but give some more life experiance I am forced to change teams and am a much more happier person for it. It's a great book. Stick with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokin5s Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 I have thought about this and this is what I am thinking. The unexplained happens everyday. Call it miricles, paranormal, or alians. May people tend to ignore them or not notice but it does happen. I really have a hard time thinking that the Bible is just one big conspiricy against humanity seems quite far fetched to me really. Almost more far fetched than a sea parting or the Great Flood bla bla bla. If it was this way I have a feeling the Bible would have lost its credibility by now and would not be the best selling book ever. I see your point and thank you for your comment. As I said I am quite new to this stuff. Hell Im only part of the way through A Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren. But that book is helping me make sense out of alot of questions that I used to have. For a long time I stood on the fence and tended to see things like Rob but give some more life experiance I am forced to change teams and am a much more happier person for it. no bigger motivator than fear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Now Rob you get a post made specially for you hope you feel special ha ha ha. First we should not have all the answers because that is not what we are made for or so they say. We are simply humans and that is all that we are suppost to be. I do feel very special indeed. The issue I see with the above quoted line of reasoning is the arbitrary assignment of defacto value, as it pertains to human intellect and discovery. It was only through the constant pushing of technology and science that we learn more and more about our environment. Flying in planes, using electricity, looking at a girls ankle, industry as a whole, these are all examples of technology/sociology that at one time or another was condemned by the church and its constituents. Why ? For airplanes it was as simple as "... if god intended man to fly he'd have wings ..." yada yada yada, so on and so forth. If it were not for the utter convenience of it all(sell-ability), and the pushing of the scientific communities, religion would have us all living in huts, and barely being able to communicate outside of our own neighborhoods. Let alone, driving in cars, having disturbing abundances of food, text messaging and pretty much everything. What you are specifically falling into is called the "Gaps". Any noticeable gap in scientific knowledge can and will be filled by superstition for the gain of that institutions agenda. Science cannot explain "whatever" so obviously it must be a spiritual mystery, and fully in "gods hands" until the gap is filled with knowledge. A good example of this is the discovery of germs. Until we discovered the minute organisms/bacterium/viruses that were responsible for many ailments and diseases, plagues and illnesses were viewed as curses from god. Sadly there are those that still subscribe to this retardation. Secondly many of your next points only hold true if someone was taken to church as a young child and shown the way as thay call it, but even then once they become an adult they can choose for themselves on wheather or not they want to believe ... cont. Actually if you will re-read what I wrote, I specifically stated that finding Christianity outside of Childhood Indoctrination is not something that is terribly unlikely. Again the idea is that you are most exposed to Christianity, therefore simple mathematical probability shows you are more likely to "find" Christianity outside of parental guidance. Choosing for oneself of course is still inherently personal, but that doesn't mean that choosing the religious choice is somehow abnormal. Now what gets me about the scientists statement is ( and this has happend many of times and been documented however I do not want to spend the time looking for it I am hungry and want to eat dinnerhttp://www.columbusracing.com/forums/../ubb/smile.gif) when on their death beds ... cont. I love when this is brought up because it is almost always alluded to as atypical behavior, when it is the inverse. This can be referred to as Divine Gambit, Deathbed Recantation, or the "there are no atheists in foxholes herp derp herp" theory. Also it is very much a product of the same fear that we as human beings created religion to deal with in the first place. As one's mortality becomes more defined, and as we age and realize the frailty of life, to many people religious practice simply becomes a failsafe for ones inevitable death. That fear would only become infinitely more palpable actually facing the raw, absolute mystery of death. No one wants to think that they might end up in hell, or cease to consciously exist. It is absolutely terrifying. Religion provides, to a degree, some relief from that fear. You've heard it a hundred times before. "Well if I'm right about god post-life, you have everything to gain, and if I'm wrong, then it doesn't matter anyway, and you end up the same place ..." However I would argue that believing in such a thing, is not true belief. If you are only using religion as a parachute, you are not really having a relationship. You are simply afraid of the Cosmic Hell-Spanking god might give you if you deviate the designed course. Of course since he is GOD after all, he should know what you would or would not do in the first place, and not only does he know what you would do, but what you WILL DO. So the whole thing seems even more pointless and cruel once you take his all-knowingness-ness[sic] into consideration, that he is plenty aware much of the world isn't Christian, but will send them to hell anyway, even though he LOVES THEM JUST AS MUCH. Just not enough to not send them to hell . I am shocked that no one has tried to pick apart my second post about the checks and balences yet but that one is gonna be a hard one no matter how intellegent you are ... Cont. I will take your challenge although whether one agrees with the answer is as subjective as which set of tits I posted above are the most glorious (its the second set, but still). The idea of the world existing in a natural state of balance may seem improbable from an interior view, but when applied to an infinitely massive universe, and in correct perspective as to our actual place in the known universe (another idea panned as dogma by the church who strictly believed Earth was the center of the universe until proven otherwise) it becomes less of an impossible, and more of an inevitable. First we exist in just the right pocket of galaxy to facilitate life itself. Not too hot, not too cold, simplified. However if each one of the stars we see in the sky is a sun, with its own system, and those are only the visible ones, planets existing in the "sweet spot" are probable enough. That's just life-tastic placement. Once we are past that, we can move onto life itself. Which is the fight of continued existence. To live, we must kill. That sounds harsh, but only when applied to other equal moral entities. When I say kill, I really mean 'consume'. Whether that be plant, animal material, or what have you. Finding natural balances takes time(variable), and is never permanent. Obviously within the viewpoint of a single lifetime or two(which regrettably is how most of us view forward history, or backwards for that matter) things can seem deceivingly stable, but viewed over several hundreds of thousands, or millions of years nets constant changes in said balances, and one finds that just as often the balance is tipped one way or another, again seriously simplified. Also lastly, to view evolutionist theory as purely "chaotic", is to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how it is theorized to work. I've read the bible several times over, as a christian, and as an atheist, but I've met few (I have indeed met some though) who have actually bothered to read The Origin of Species, in anything other than a tentatively narrow way. Let alone current, prevailing theories based upon. Again, I do not strictly adhere to evolutionist theory, but I can at least fathom the ideas behind it, and they cannot be reduced into simple "chaos". My hands hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T Rex Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 I have been torn between religion and atheism my entire life. I have grown up in the Methodist Church and my mother is a Methodist minister. I do not claim to be an expert in either field and I always seem to be on the fence about my beliefs. I will list a few points that sway my mind all the time. - It seems the more intelligent we, the human race, become the less need for religion there is. (Indulgences, creation, etc etc etc) - I despise Christians that take the Bible literal. There are to many examples to list. These are the people that make me more atheist than anything. - If you are Christian then the old testament REALLY doesn't apply... Literally. - Most Christians don't even know what separates them from Jewish people. - Christmas is a sham... Easter? what? - What is really the message in the Bible? Acceptance, being tolerant and love? - Taoism... Buddhism... Enlightenment... should the human race strive for this? I believe so. - Yes there are scientific reasons for every little atom and its placement. But I'll be damned if there are not moments when I see or hear something so beautiful that I don't believe there is a higher power making that happen and maybe making it happen just for me. - I don't believe that religion has ANY place in government and laws that are based on religion are corrupt. Religion is about free will and the individuals choice to believe or have faith in that God or themselves (something most religions are founded on, free will that is). - The book Scholar Warrior is amazing. - I believe we hold the keys to our own "destiny." I believe that we can manifest our own lives the way we want it to be. I think I've bored you all enough with my ramblings. Can't we all just be good people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Eat Rice Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 T Rex brought up some good points. I as well do not like the Bible thumpers that take everything so serious and that was one of my draws away from religion for a long time, because some of these extreamests as I call them said that I was damned to hell for how I have lived my life. Isn't a point of religion to acknowledge that no human is perfect and that we all sin, we just have to ask for forgiveness and truely mean it to recieve that forgiveness? Now I am starting to realize that what others think and how others view me as well does not matter at all. I could care less anymore. I am living life for me and only for me, and how others view it can suck it because at the end of the day I am finaly happy and that is all that matters. Also I now do not judge others because that is their life and their choices, do I feel sorry for some people though? Absoutly, however IMO they are entilted to live however they want to because it is their life and not mine and we all were given free will to make choices. I do agree that religion and government should not be combined but as I said before this will never happen because a majority of conservatives base alot of their political views with religious morals in mind ie abortion, and like I said our Constitution was written by white men with Christian views and morals as a basis. It was not the entire basis of the Constitution but just a small little bite of the pie that helped them shape their ideas and put them on paper. I have proved that and this is pretty basic History and if one can not accept that then oh well... Also Christmas and Easter was brought up and this is one thing that I have pondered for awhile. If one is truely an athesist then why do you acknowledge these holidays and celebrate them? By doing this then aren't you then being somewhat of a believer because how I see it they are going against their basic principals of what they believe because they are celebrating the birth and death of Jesus Christ. It should just be another day for them then and that means no presants, lights on the house, tree ect ect. To a point I think alot of people become atheisits either to rebell against the norm or what they may have been taught, or because their ego is getting in the way and for some reason they can not fantom the idea that they are not in complete control of their lives and where they are going. Control is just an illusion people, we do not know what is going to happen next year, next month, next week, tomorrow, or even a minute from now. We can assume and make an educated guess based on odds and logic but really we do not know. All we really know is the here and now and the current moment that we are living in and that is it and life is so much bigger than just that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Eat Rice Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 It's a great book. Stick with it. Thank you and I plan on it. I was feeling down for sometime and was looking for some answers and some direction to get me back on track to accomplishing some goals that I have for myself. I was looking within myself for this direction and then one day a very very strong urge came over me and the thought came into my head that every answer to all of my questions and that sense of direction that I was looking for would be in this book and I picked it up and decided to read it again with an open mind this time. I will tell you what that voice in my head was right and everything that I was in need of I have found in this book and even more amazingly there are days that I read it and what the chapter is about pretains to things that happened in that exact same day. This did not happen by chance I can tell you that I was ment to be reading this book at this exact time in my life and now not only are alot of my problems going away but alot of stuff seems so trival and pointless now that used to have an extreme effect on me. I am finaly becoming the person that I have wanted to be for so long and I am going to run with this and never look back because I know in my heart that this is right for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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